Plastic Surgery or Genital Mutilation?

[RapeMask]

even the above article, which is vehemently against says:

'It must be understood that most parents feel strongly that having their daughter circumcised is healthy and in her best interests. For many women who have undergone FGM, it is an important rite of passage to be endured with dignity, as by their mothers and great-grandmothers before them, to confer enhanced social status as an adult.'

im fairly convinced that people are in the main not fundamentally evil and do not take 'malicious' pleasure in torturing their children or women. im pretty willing to believe that these are rites of passage based on a communal value system and a particular way of evaluating and organising the truth.

when you say that before you get a piercing, you get to know what will happen, what the health risks are, etc, we have made our culture out of the truths permeated by science. its how we order our own lives, how we evaluate choice etc. they work with different truths. they may tell their daughter that sex is an evil, that the removal of the clitoris will reduce the risk of her being infected by evil, that she will be more valuable to her future husband: in short, that she will be a more full woman as a result. it is not a truth system based on scientific knowledge, its a truth system based on tradition, ritual and religion.

'(1) feel forced to do thanks to cultural and religious pressures,
(2) feel forced to do because the patriarchy, which views them as chattel, will value them even less if they don't do it,
(3) don't fully understand the consequences of the procedure. '

all these view points come from a western truth perspective. 'feel forced to' for instance. what about 'feel they have to'? was i forced to give 8 hours a day to a prison they called school? back in the days of church, were people forced to goto church on a sunday? they did it by ritual and choice, because it was done and in the end there would be rewards and positive affirmation. 'patriarchy' is a modern western term, an invention by which western women 'make' themselves. you as a modern-western-woman are the consequence of the fact the concept 'patriarchy' came about and that that concept became stigmatized. queen victoria was very forceful in her belief that women were not to enjoy sex, but rather sex was a womans duty to the husband - it was something she took pride in giving him and not enjoying. she did it for him. its all values, its all discourse and one perspective has no business telling another how it should live. instead, share your knowledge and see how it choses to live as it assimilates it

lastly, the docs problem isnt with getting rid of genital mutilation. he seems to want it gone. his problem is with plastic surgery undermining the western argument against it. my problem however is with our moral superiority and physical/economic interference with other cultures and rituals.

Too many stories from women who'd gone through this have a very different point of view. There are stories of girls who run away from their tibes so that they can avoid this terrible proceedure. If they're captured and brought back, it's forced on them. Somehow, that doesn't sound like women "welcoming" it as a mark of adulthood.

And many women who do go through it voluntarily later confess that they didn't know what what going to happen because they're not sexually educated about their own bodies. It's difficult to say that a woman welcomes a mark of adulthood if she's ignorant about her own genitalia.

That is one point in favor of the cosmetic surgery. At least the doctors tell the women exactly what's going ot be done and what the likely results and side-effects will be. Hell! If a woman gets her clit pierced she gets a lecture from the licensed piercer on what's going to happen and what possible problems and side-effects there will be.

I think this fellow is protesting too much. It's really pretty hard to say that women "welcome" what they (1) feel forced to do thanks to cultural and religious pressures, (2) feel forced to do because the patriarchy, which views them as chattel, will value them even less if they don't do it, (3) don't fully understand the consequences of the procedure.

If the societies where this takes place treat women as equal citizens, give them equal education, and educate them completely as to the consequences of this procedure and IF the women who get this procedure are, effectively, adults, then he can protest that the west's criticism is invalid. Till then, he just sounds like a guy who wants to keep things status quo.

 

[RapeMask]

i think there is a comparison to be made between the apples and oranges here. whereas they stigmatize sex - at least in the case of the woman - we praise it endlessly. sex for them is sinful and as a result of that belief, they mutilate their women; sex for us is glorious and to obtain its rewards, we mutilate ourselves.


i didnt mean to compare the people trying to alter the views on the procedure to those trying to alter our views on sex. those who sell us sex and those who sell us vanity or the idea that a stretched vagina is a damaged one i am comparing to the cultural traditions that make FGM ok in other places. here however, its more manipulative whereas there, its traditional and steeped in their culture. i have no problem myself with educating other countries to our ways so long as we are not telling them that it is the right way.

sex does have something to do with it when the target of the mutilation and the purpose of the mutilation is sexual. our mutilations though are to obtain sex, theres are to resist it; ours are to repair so-called defects, theirs are for hygene. im pretty sure that should the vagina of a woman who has had a mutialtion became stretched after child birth, she wouldnt think it defective. we are just shifting the truth game around.

Apples and oranges. How does telling them how to have sex equal trying to change their minds about forcing a procedure on young women that can KILL THEM or leave them in agony for the rest of their lives and especially during childbirth?

I agree that there are right ways and wrong ways to make changes, and it would be far better if the changes came from within than from without. That said, I take offence to your comparison of those trying to alter views on this procedure as equal to those trying to alter views on enjoying sex.

Sex has nothing to do with this. If they were chopping off little girl's feet, the west would feel pretty much the same about it.

Feel free to argue with us about how we're not getting it, but please try to compare apples with apples if you're going to do so.

 

[RapeMask]

aaaaannnnndddddddd:

the conditions of a community's happiness are intrinsic to the structure on which the community is based. because we see horror there and physical destruction does not mean they see the same thing. they see rituals of dignity, endurance and piety. these principles are the principles by which they evaluate thier lives. it makes me wonder why, if the west has it so right, does it have the highest instance of depression and suicide in the world? why are so many westerners' lives so miserable and empty?

 

[3113]

e i forced to give 8 hours a day to a prison they called school? back in the days of church, were people forced to goto church on a sunday?

We're back to apples and oranges. What operation did school or church force you to undergo? What part of your anatomy did they insist you have chopped off? In what way did school or church leave you in physical pain for the rest of your life? And how close did you come to dying because you were forced to go to school or church?

i think there is a comparison to be made between the apples and oranges here. whereas they stigmatize sex - at least in the case of the woman - we praise it endlessly.

Which part of the western world do you live in? In my part of the western world a woman who enjoys sex is still called a slut. In my part of the western world, kids are taught that they should abstain from sex. They aren't taught about condoms or birth control. If a nipple is shown on television, the tv station is fined.

So what part of the western world are you talking about that praises sex so much?

the conditions of a community's happiness are intrinsic to the structure on which the community is based. because we see horror there and physical destruction does not mean they see the same thing. they see rituals of dignity, endurance and piety. these principles are the principles by which they evaluate thier lives. it makes me wonder why, if the west has it so right, does it have the highest instance of depression and suicide in the world? why are so many westerners' lives so miserable and empty?

Your numbers are wrong. I'm afraid that other countries are just as miserable if not more miserable. Certain parts of Africa have the highest murder rate in the world. Instead of killing themselves, they kill others. And just because people don't suicide or speak of depression doesn't mean they're happy...just that they don't talk about it.

Finally, these rituals of "dignity, endurance and piety"--all well and good, if the person knowingly volunteers for it. But once again, there are girls running from their tribes to get away from this. There are mothers telling their husbands, "This was done to me and it was horrible. Don't do it to our daughter!" That doesn't sound to me as if they're viewing this as "dignity, endurance and piety."

And if you really see it that way, is there any drawing the line? There use to be rituals of "dignity, endurance and piety" that involved murdering people. In Jim Crowe south it was a rite of manhood for a boy to witness and participate in a lynching. It's a rite of manhood to rape women in some societies. If the culture thought that women's feet were dirty and evil, and chopped them off, would that be acceptable? At what point is it piety and at what point is it torture? How incapasitated does the person have to be for this to become something that ought not be done to them just for the sake of "dignity, endurance and piety"?

I said it in the very first post: if these women want this done, and they're adults, then they can do it. If they want it done to their young daughters, than that's a different story. I've read about some mothers in the west who force their daughers on terrible diets to keep them thin. These mothers would see that as dignity, endurance and piety. I have the same objection to what they are doing as I do to mothers and fathers in this case.

I'll give you another western example: babies are often born with ambiguous or deformed genitalia. Sometimes this is easily fixed. However, in some cases, this ambiguous genitalia is niether male nor female. Parents have a difficult decision, do they let the doctor construct genitalia to make the child a sex, or do they leave it as is? One such androgneous person talked about the fact that his/her genitalia, as it was, got wet and gave him/her pleasure when rubbed, etc. But he/she was pressured to go under the knife and have an operation to seem more of one sex than the other. He/she lost a lot of sensation because of it and has been quite miserable ever since.

That is what happens in the west with mutilating genitalia of children and/or pressuring people into mutilating themselves to fit in. I no more approve of it than I do of circumcision--for underage males or females. If, as an adult, they want it--for whatever reason, piety, a husband, to be part of the tribe, fine. But if they don't...then no one should be saying, "It's our culture, let us do it TO them...whether or not they want it."

And I don't give a shit which culture that is.

 

[champagne1982]

Clitoral removal cannot be equated to penile circumcision. The penis is not removed during the procedure, whereas during "clitoral circumcision", the entire clitoris of the girl is. It is a horrible misnomer.

What these societies have done is created generations of female eunuchs, that is wrong.

(There are two forms of male eunuch, actually three... penile, testicular and complete.)

 

[FallingToFly]

After my sister in law gave birth, the doctor stiching up her episiotomy offered to my brother to put some extra stiches in to make her "nice and tight" for him. He damn near decked the guy. What I do wish he had done is REPORT the bastard. God only knows how many men took him up on the offer.

It's called a "husband stitch" and it's actually very common after an episiotomy. I've had one of each, and losing your "virginity" the second time around is, to say the least, a bloody pain in the arse. I've never actually heard of anyone have a problem with it though.

The most common issue with episiotomies is the fact that the scar isn't elastic- therefore it doesn't stretch the way normal vaginal tissue does, and it can make what would normally simply be an angle with a lot of presure extremely painful. A little adjustment fixes that, and all goes on.

 

[FallingToFly]

It's called a "husband stitch" and it's actually very common after an episiotomy. I've had one of each, and losing your "virginity" the second time around is, to say the least, a bloody pain in the arse. I've never actually heard of anyone have a problem with it though.

The most common issue with episiotomies is the fact that the scar isn't elastic- therefore it doesn't stretch the way normal vaginal tissue does, and it can make what would normally simply be an angle with a lot of presure extremely painful. A little adjustment fixes that, and all goes on.

Adding to this- I had all three of my sons circumsized. There was a reason- I've known far too many uncircumsized men who had no concept of how to care for themselves- or just didn't give a damn. So, my boys will never have a chance to risk their health by not cleaning themselves properly- life does go on.

 

[RapeMask]

We're back to apples and oranges. What operation did school or church force you to undergo? What part of your anatomy did they insist you have chopped off? In what way did school or church leave you in physical pain for the rest of your life? And how close did you come to dying because you were forced to go to school or church?

that wasnt really the point. we in the west are very keen to disguise the violence within our societies and even the violence our societies inflict on other societies. part of the western power-justification is to give the impression of 'no violence' or 'counter-violence' so as it can more easily justify itself as power. 'apparent violence' is out and so its difficult for me to grab at an overtly violent ritual in the west.

my analogy of school was more to illustrate the way a judgemental discourse is created and imposed on some other group. you could say that with schools there is 'psychological damage', however we dont call it psychological damage and we dont look for that damage in out citizens. if a more powerful community didnt have schools and thought that children shouldnt be imprisoned for 8 hours per day, im sure they would make a pretty good case for mental torture.

with the physical damage, i would not argue that we as a society should start incorporating such value systems. nor am i suggesting that i think the way they do things is ideal. what i am suggestng is that their society assimilates the problems this practice causes into the normative structure. it isnt an horrific aboration to them, is what im suggesting. whilst it is normative and accepted, i dont think we have much grounds to tell them it shouldnt be.


Which part of the western world do you live in? In my part of the western world a woman who enjoys sex is still called a slut. In my part of the western world, kids are taught that they should abstain from sex. They aren't taught about condoms or birth control. If a nipple is shown on television, the tv station is fined.

uk. im taking it youre american? you say all this and yet you are on a website dedicated to the greater glory of sex. american censorship is mostly out of date. in fact, i reckon a great many american internal political practices are well out of date. europe is institutionally more reflective of the modern world, though US powers of consumerism are likely the worlds most powerful. for the marketing of sex - look to mtv, chat shows, sit coms - friends, sex in the city and such drool. look at any billboard, ad hoarding? post freud, there has been a huge movement of psychology types in the west to combat 'sexual repression' - not the friends ever does, but it puts of the pretense that it is sexually outrageous. look at a any girls ********* profile (this might be more a brit thing, dunno) 'interests 'lads, dancin, m8s, sex lol'.




Your numbers are wrong. I'm afraid that other countries are just as miserable if not more miserable. Certain parts of Africa have the highest murder rate in the world. Instead of killing themselves, they kill others. And just because people don't suicide or speak of depression doesn't mean they're happy...just that they don't talk about it.

i regretted that post after id posted it. i think i overstated my point. what i was driving at was the idea that where there is a community, it has its own methods by which it measures its achievements and its 'right living'. it assimilates into its normative structure what our differing values can problematise as horror. it lives with it rather than expels it. i think i went a bit far with the implication that it was all flowers and bunnies over there. what i was thinking at the time is that western science pretty much gave us sartre and 'being and nothingness' - i wonder if such a philosophy of complete meaninglessness and despair could come from any of these tribes.




Finally, these rituals of "dignity, endurance and piety"--all well and good, if the person knowingly volunteers for it. But once again, there are girls running from their tribes to get away from this. There are mothers telling their husbands, "This was done to me and it was horrible. Don't do it to our daughter!" That doesn't sound to me as if they're viewing this as "dignity, endurance and piety."

there are children running away from school, we call it truancy. they havent consented to school, they dont want to be at school and they are punished if they dont go to school. the parents here are now punished also if they dont go to school. you will say 'apples and oranges' again becuase of the absence of a physical aspect, but im absolutely convinced that there are men and women in mental hospitals and will never come out because of the damage of schools. im convinced there are men and women in mental hospitals because of the way we regulate and surpress violence too. im not trying to tell you genital mutilation is right, im just not saying its wrong either.






At what point is it piety and at what point is it torture?

with all the stuff you mention, the rites of passage of rape, of lynching and of dirty evil feet amputation, where it exists in some community is only our business to a minor extent. we shouldnt call for change out of our own sense of indignation and horror. im not even comfortable with the idea of being horrified by any of this - in fact, im probably not horrified by any of it. i have no right to be. it isnt happening to me, it isnt my fight to fight. if i were part of that community and horrified, then id feel i had more a right to my horror, but im not, im from a community which is evolutionary speaking (sideways evolution, not forwards) a million miles away. the life and brick and thought and talk that surrounds me is absolutely nothing like the sort of environment and speach that surrounds them.

what point does something become torture? when there is the intent to torture, would be the answer to that. when the pleasure is derived from cruelty. again though, there are pleasures of cruelty in every culture and institution, some of us just hide them away a bit better than others.



How incapasitated does the person have to be for this to become something that ought not be done to them just for the sake of "dignity, endurance and piety"?

incapacitation shouldnt be the measure. communal outrage and horror should be the measure. its their community, not yours.




That is what happens in the west with mutilating genitalia of children and/or pressuring people into mutilating themselves to fit in. I no more approve of it than I do of circumcision--for underage males or females. If, as an adult, they want it--for whatever reason, piety, a husband, to be part of the tribe, fine. But if they don't...then no one should be saying, "It's our culture, let us do it TO them...whether or not they want it."

then you and the doctor remain in disagreement over the 'consent' aspect. i think the doctor would probably as what is this consent, what is this desire? should it be acceptable that a woman finds herself in a state of mind where she would go into a doctors surgery and say 'i want my vagina making right?', and should the doctor find this state of mind absolutely understandable and a-ok? the question is as to whether or not this consentual state of mind is more defective that the vagina? she says 'yes' out of a suffering that shouldnt exist and shouldnt be normatised (according to this doctor) and given this suffering, is she really consenting?

also, i dont think the argument is 'its our culture, let us do it TO them'. im not even sure how the fight against FGM is waged or who is fighting it. im not even sure how it was it became a problem for the west and how it now manifests itself in the way the west acts. id imagine it all has a very interesting history.

 

[outdoorpantys]

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