Poetry + Prose = Prosetry?

[Epmd607]

Dylan T and T.S. E and Ezra P wrote mainly short poems but they weren't really concise either, in terms of someone trying to understand what they're saying. A concise group of symbols easily understood(Dorothy Parker) versus an obscure series of symbols and signs(ee cummings) I can't imagine reading John Milton all the way through, I've read passages and fallen asleep. Then again I haven't read all of a work by James Joyce, just passages.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Hmm, link no worky.

Author and title?

Sorry, Liar. Here it is again.

 

[oggbashan]

... I can't imagine reading John Milton all the way through, I've read passages and fallen asleep. ...

I enjoyed reading Paradise Lost and Paradise Regained. Paradise Lost was a set work for one of my school examinations.

The imagery and allusions needed a significant knowledge of the King James version of the Bible which I had at that time.

I can understand that Milton would be difficult to read without the old-fashioned education in Latin, Greek, Classical civilisation and the Bible. When Milton was writing his audience would have been able to follow his poetry easily. Now? I can imagine having to stop on almost every page to work out what Milton was referring to.

To what extent is poetry a product of its age? Older poets need explanation and even translation. I think modern poets can still have trouble with their audience because the English speaking world doesn't necessarily share all the references that would be easily followed by a US reader.

Is universality an achievable or desirable aim for a poet?

Og

 

[Angeline]

I enjoyed reading Paradise Lost and Paradise Regained. Paradise Lost was a set work for one of my school examinations.

The imagery and allusions needed a significant knowledge of the King James version of the Bible which I had at that time.

I can understand that Milton would be difficult to read without the old-fashioned education in Latin, Greek, Classical civilisation and the Bible. When Milton was writing his audience would have been able to follow his poetry easily. Now? I can imagine having to stop on almost every page to work out what Milton was referring to.

To what extent is poetry a product of its age? Older poets need explanation and even translation. I think modern poets can still have trouble with their audience because the English speaking world doesn't necessarily share all the references that would be easily followed by a US reader.
Is universality an achievable or desirable aim for a poet?

Og

Hiya Og. Nice to see you weighing in on this. I think your point about the English speaking world is well taken. And even for people who are not native speakers of English, but fluent in it, there are also cultural differences that don't translate well. So no, universality is neither achievable nor desirable (assuming it could be achieved). Given the many language and culture roadblocks, universality would likely result in writing so watered down and general as to lost any possible poetic appeal. At least in my opinion.

 

[Epmd607]

ogg just reminded me in another thread about Dylan Thomas Under Milk Wood. Isn't that the most perfect mix of poetry and prose?

To begin at the beginning:

It is spring, moonless night in the small town, starless
and bible-black, the cobblestreets silent and the hunched,
courters'-and-rabbits' wood limping invisible down to the
sloeblack, slow, black, crowblack, fishingboatbobbing sea.
The houses are blind as moles (though moles see fine to-night
in the snouting, velvet dingles) or blind as Captain Cat
there in the muffled middle by the pump and the town clock,
the shops in mourning, the Welfare Hall in widows' weeds.
And all the people of the lulled and dumbfound town are
sleeping now.

 

[Epmd607]

It's like I totally forgot about having a super sweet car and have stumbled upon it all shiney and new. I'm gonna go read it. I hope everyone who's interested in poetry reads it once in their life, it's like the first time you read Moby Dick and you're surprised at how good the prose actually is.


Hush, the babies are sleeping, the farmers, the fishers,
the tradesmen and pensioners, cobbler, schoolteacher,
postman and publican, the undertaker and the fancy woman,
drunkard, dressmaker, preacher, policeman, the webfoot
cocklewomen and the tidy wives. Young girls lie bedded soft
or glide in their dreams, with rings and trousseaux,
bridesmaided by glowworms down the aisles of the
organplaying wood. The boys are dreaming wicked or of the
bucking ranches of the night and the jollyrodgered sea. And
the anthracite statues of the horses sleep in the fields,
and the cows in the byres, and the dogs in the wetnosed
yards; and the cats nap in the slant corners or lope sly,
streaking and needling, on the one cloud of the roofs.

 

[oggbashan]

I found a love of words in Christopher Fry's The Lady's Not For Burning.

It is a play in verse but I enjoyed Christopher Fry's language. As a stage production it requires actors who can give the words their due weight. I wasn't surprised that Richard Burton was involved in one of the early productions.

Og

 

[oggbashan]

Universality

Is Pidgin a universal language?

This is a sample of Hawaiin Pidgin:

Da Boss Above, he take care me,
Jalike da sheep farma take care his sheeps.
He goin give me everyting I need.

He let me lie down wea da sweet an soft grass stay.
He lead me by da water wea I can rest.

He give me new kine life.
He lead me in da road dat stay right,
Cuz I his guy.

From the Hawai'i Pidgin Bible - Da Jesus Book

Og

PS. That's the first verses of Psalm 23

 

[Angeline]

It's like I totally forgot about having a super sweet car and have stumbled upon it all shiney and new. I'm gonna go read it. I hope everyone who's interested in poetry reads it once in their life, it's like the first time you read Moby Dick and you're surprised at how good the prose actually is.


Hush, the babies are sleeping, the farmers, the fishers,
the tradesmen and pensioners, cobbler, schoolteacher,
postman and publican, the undertaker and the fancy woman,
drunkard, dressmaker, preacher, policeman, the webfoot
cocklewomen and the tidy wives. Young girls lie bedded soft
or glide in their dreams, with rings and trousseaux,
bridesmaided by glowworms down the aisles of the
organplaying wood. The boys are dreaming wicked or of the
bucking ranches of the night and the jollyrodgered sea. And
the anthracite statues of the horses sleep in the fields,
and the cows in the byres, and the dogs in the wetnosed
yards; and the cats nap in the slant corners or lope sly,
streaking and needling, on the one cloud of the roofs.

I absolutely hated Moby Dick. It's the only novel I can recall so disliking that I read the Cliff Notes to produce a report on it in high school. To me it seemed endless and endlessly boring. And yet I love the short story "Bartleby the Scrivener." Much as I hated the detail and description in Moby Dick, I love the same characteristics in Dickens' novels. Great Expectations and Bleak House are two of my favorite novels ever. I also love Les Miserables and Zola's Germinal, which are similarly descriptive and highly detailed. Go figure.

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

It's like I totally forgot about having a super sweet car and have stumbled upon it all shiney and new. I'm gonna go read it. I hope everyone who's interested in poetry reads it once in their life, it's like the first time you read Moby Dick and you're surprised at how good the prose actually is.


Hush, the babies are sleeping, the farmers, the fishers,
the tradesmen and pensioners, cobbler, schoolteacher,
postman and publican, the undertaker and the fancy woman,
drunkard, dressmaker, preacher, policeman, the webfoot
cocklewomen and the tidy wives. Young girls lie bedded soft
or glide in their dreams, with rings and trousseaux,
bridesmaided by glowworms down the aisles of the
organplaying wood. The boys are dreaming wicked or of the
bucking ranches of the night and the jollyrodgered sea. And
the anthracite statues of the horses sleep in the fields,
and the cows in the byres, and the dogs in the wetnosed
yards; and the cats nap in the slant corners or lope sly,
streaking and needling, on the one cloud of the roofs.

Dylan Thomas is a fine example of poetic prose, Under Milk Wood (above) is brilliant and timeless. Thanks for this Epmd.

 

[Epmd607]

Is Pidgin a universal language?

This is a sample of Hawaiin Pidgin:

Da Boss Above, he take care me,
Jalike da sheep farma take care his sheeps.
He goin give me everyting I need.

He let me lie down wea da sweet an soft grass stay.
He lead me by da water wea I can rest.

He give me new kine life.
He lead me in da road dat stay right,
Cuz I his guy.

From the Hawai'i Pidgin Bible - Da Jesus Book

Og

PS. That's the first verses of Psalm 23

Gullah is a pretty poetic pidgin to me.

-Bit dat Baptis' tebl tappa no lub wuh Tee'mon duh.

'Troot ma-wt. Debble'ub'uh olmaan summuch trubble.'

-Giss Tee'mon peruse 'bout de tris onte'l middleday?

'Wunt fuh longuh, waka go a wosu fsutt'n.'

-Bettuh git me meetin' ma'am.

'Yaas suh, bet'na krak teet onte'l leddown sho ded.'

-Haha.

'Joo-ay kin rit dat in de buuki!'

-Yaas, yaas. Bumbye gullah'ooman.

'Yeddy Deh'tinee--bettuh mek dat pooty sweeth'aa't yo lawfully lady.'

 

[Epmd607]

I absolutely hated Moby Dick. It's the only novel I can recall so disliking that I read the Cliff Notes to produce a report on it in high school. To me it seemed endless and endlessly boring. And yet I love the short story "Bartleby the Scrivener." Much as I hated the detail and description in Moby Dick, I love the same characteristics in Dickens' novels. Great Expectations and Bleak House are two of my favorite novels ever. I also love Les Miserables and Zola's Germinal, which are similarly descriptive and highly detailed. Go figure.

The chapter on whale classification I always skim, pretty much all the folk theory parts I pass over, but Moby D and Frankenstein are my favorite novels. My wife doesn't like either of those books. Maybe girls don't like sailing and horror stories as much as boys(I'm joking, don't lecture me.) I made her read me Under Milk Wood last night, she's a better poet than me but she wasn't as excited as me over Captain Cat and Rosie Probert.

And since it's so fresh in my mind, Under Milk Wood is the best book of poetry I've ever read, but I come back to Poe's essay, even Dylan Thomas in a fairly unstructured prosetry can't sustain my excitement for an entire 60-70 pages. It's excitement, this is dull, this is exciting, this is silly, etc.

 

[Angeline]

The chapter on whale classification I always skim, pretty much all the folk theory parts I pass over, but Moby D and Frankenstein are my favorite novels. My wife doesn't like either of those books. Maybe girls don't like sailing and horror stories as much as boys(I'm joking, don't lecture me.) I made her read me Under Milk Wood last night, she's a better poet than me but she wasn't as excited as me over Captain Cat and Rosie Probert.

And since it's so fresh in my mind, Under Milk Wood is the best book of poetry I've ever read, but I come back to Poe's essay, even Dylan Thomas in a fairly unstructured prosetry can't sustain my excitement for an entire 60-70 pages. It's excitement, this is dull, this is exciting, this is silly, etc.

Mornin.

Hah, I won't lecture you. I agree with you, at least what you posit seems mostly true for my generation. I find the story of Les Miz thrilling: the passion and war and classism and all the splendid human condition played out against that landscape. And the theme of redemption never fails to move me--often to tears. But that sixty-page chapter on the sewers of Paris bores the bejesus outta me. I usually skip it when I reread.

I've never read Under Milkwood in its entireity (sp? I just woke up lol). I think I wll now after seeing what you and Tess and Og have said. But I think you hit on an important point: that it's really hard for a reader to stay engaged with that sort of writing for a sustained time. As I stated above I love Woolf, and find her writing very poetic. But she's hard to read, to stay engaged with her style of prose. Kinda like Joyce or even Burroughs for me. Perhaps that explains why "flash fiction" is so popular. It's a way of combining prose and poetry without too heavy of a load on the reader. And yet it's a rare piece of flash fiction that really excites me.

 

[Angeline]

testing

 

[EroticOrogeny]

Prose is definately different - my dissertation for example is clealr not poetic.

 

[Epmd607]

Mornin.

Hah, I won't lecture you. I agree with you, at least what you posit seems mostly true for my generation. I find the story of Les Miz thrilling: the passion and war and classism and all the splendid human condition played out against that landscape. And the theme of redemption never fails to move me--often to tears. But that sixty-page chapter on the sewers of Paris bores the bejesus outta me. I usually skip it when I reread.

I've never read Under Milkwood in its entireity (sp? I just woke up lol). I think I wll now after seeing what you and Tess and Og have said. But I think you hit on an important point: that it's really hard for a reader to stay engaged with that sort of writing for a sustained time. As I stated above I love Woolf, and find her writing very poetic. But she's hard to read, to stay engaged with her style of prose. Kinda like Joyce or even Burroughs for me. Perhaps that explains why "flash fiction" is so popular. It's a way of combining prose and poetry without too heavy of a load on the reader. And yet it's a rare piece of flash fiction that really excites me.

You can read it all online(Under Milk Wood) or listen to the RadioPlay version in two parts online(for free for some reason.) Maybe listen to it first and if it's interesting go and read it. It's maybe 60 pages but it's all in dialogue form so it doesn't read like a novella. The very beginning with the Captain dreaming of his dead sailors is my favorite thing since the first negotiation with the old woman in Dead Souls.

That would be cool if we made our own play for voices here, just stories in prosetry and then actually recorded the audio individually for our characters. Me and Bflaggy actually tried to recreate Under Milk Wood in the Catskill Park, we got a full story but didn't have an editor so the project never left the early draft stages.

Edit: Speaking of difficult, I've read through Finnegans Wake a number of ways but Joseph Campbell's Skeleton Key is just a whole lot better as a book. It's strange to me that JJoyce never went back to poetry, his first two books were poems. In poetry there's the sound of words, in prose that's just not the case in any book besides for Finnegan. Maybe there's some loose connection to what we're talking about with prosetry hidden in Finnegan.

 

[bflagsst]

You can read it all online(Under Milk Wood) or listen to the RadioPlay version in two parts online(for free for some reason.) Maybe listen to it first and if it's interesting go and read it. It's maybe 60 pages but it's all in dialogue form so it doesn't read like a novella. The very beginning with the Captain dreaming of his dead sailors is my favorite thing since the first negotiation with the old woman in Dead Souls.

That would be cool if we made our own play for voices here, just stories in prosetry and then actually recorded the audio individually for our characters. Me and Bflaggy actually tried to recreate Under Milk Wood in the Catskill Park, we got a full story but didn't have an editor so the project never left the early draft stages.

Edit: Speaking of difficult, I've read through Finnegans Wake a number of ways but Joseph Campbell's Skeleton Key is just a whole lot better as a book. It's strange to me that JJoyce never went back to poetry, his first two books were poems. In poetry there's the sound of words, in prose that's just not the case in any book besides for Finnegan. Maybe there's some loose connection to what we're talking about with prosetry hidden in Finnegan.

Yeah I forgot about Under Milk Wood and our Shinhopple proj. We should try something new, let C tell us what to do like a boss.

 

[bflagsst]

never mind

 

[UnderYourSpell]

I thought up prizes if we ever do the contest. All poetry related and most mildly obscure editions. The book on dream interpretation isn't poetry, but it's good for writing poems. I'll send the winner one of these:

Sylvia Plath and TS Eliot Cassettes

Letters of Rob Browning and Elizabeth Barrett

Sylvia P Colossus and Ted Hughes Translations

James Joyce Chamber Music and Stephen Hero

Artemidorus Oneirocritica (dream interpretation)

Collected Poems of Sappho

Ezra Pound Complete Cantos

Poems of Ossian

good job for you that I won't win then lol

 

[Epmd607]

Ha. Which one has the best re-sell value? I want Sylvia Plath's death mask as a prize.

 

[bflagsst]

Ha. Which one has the best re-sell value? I want Sylvia Plath's death mask as a prize.

I guess I'm taking back my offer. I didn't quite understand what UYS meant, but I don't feel so friendly all of a sudden.

We're down 'til we're underground. Let's make a website.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

I guess I'm taking back my offer. I didn't quite understand what UYS meant, but I don't feel so friendly all of a sudden.

We're down 'til we're underground. Let's make a website.

I was only commenting on the large amount of postage it would cost you ........ soorreeeeee I should have been more clear. *hangs head in shame and scurries away back to Hmmnmm's blankie*