Pronouns

[gordo12]

So you're basically on this thread for a laugh. Because you specifically said you'd not bother using the correct titles for people, and in real life while you're a volunteer you obviously do.

And there you go making assumptions again. None of that mattered because NOBODY made an issue out of it. Only an isolated group of people moaning and groaning about how badly life has treated them that get into this kind of mind think. Disagree with them and out come all the made-up derogatory terms.

And we were asked how we would handle this in WRITING, not real life.

There was one girl whose dad warned me she preferred the HE pronoun. But she also had a name. I used that because we worked together. Never had a problem, and why should I.

Whatever her sexual issues were, it had nothing to do with me, and I would never embarrass her by bringing it up.

But in your mind think, ANYONE who has a sexual identity issue should be demanding and strident about how they're addressed. It ain't so; most are private and would never say anything.

 

[gordo12]

And by the way:

Would everybody please start addressing me as Master. Master Gordo that is. I feel a crisis coming on!

 

[Winter_Fare]

Yes, and staff!

And there you go making assumptions again. None of that mattered because NOBODY made an issue out of it. Only an isolated group of people moaning and groaning about how badly life has treated them that get into this kind of mind think. Disagree with them and out come all the made-up derogatory terms.

And we were asked how we would handle this in WRITING, not real life.

There was one girl whose dad warned me she preferred the HE pronoun. But she also had a name. I used that because we worked together. Never had a problem, and why should I.

Whatever her sexual issues were, it had nothing to do with me, and I would never embarrass her by bringing it up.

But in your mind think, ANYONE who has a sexual identity issue should be demanding and strident about how they're addressed. It ain't so; most are private and would never say anything.

Nobody made an issue of it? For nine years over three care homes as a volunteer? YOU made an issue of it. You'll never know how he honestly felt about it because he was POLITE to you, despite your vile attitude. And as I said before misgendering people is abusive. YOU were abusive to that BOY.

 

[Winter_Fare]

And by the way:

Would everybody please start addressing me as Master. Master Gordo that is. I feel a crisis coming on!

COMRADE it's been a laugh.

 

[gordo12]

COMRADE it's been a laugh.

How disrespectful. I asked to be called Master which has a lovely connotation and you ignore it. How dare you?

 

[gordo12]

Nobody made an issue of it? For nine years over three care homes as a volunteer? YOU made an issue of it. You'll never know how he honestly felt about it because he was POLITE to you, despite your vile attitude. And as I said before misgendering people is abusive. YOU were abusive to that BOY.

And yet we got along great. She/he was a great sketch artist and made several for me as gifts. You put your own misery on her and that wasn't so.

Once again, painting everyone with made-up broad strokes out of your own perceived world.

 

[Winter_Fare]

It has a connotation, comrade. But I don't think my husband would approve x

 

[Winter_Fare]

And yet we got along great. She/he was a great sketch artist and made several for me as gifts. You put your own misery on her and that wasn't so.

Once again, painting everyone with made-up broad strokes out of your own perceived world.

Yes! I'm happy for him, glad you had a meaningful friendship. I have several friends with ludicrous attitudes to sexuality, I try not to let it bother me, there's good in everyone yada yada.... Still, if you have care of a vulnerable person with limited social contact, there is a chance you could really hurt them by being so dismissive of their needs. A chance, not a certainty.

 

[gordo12]

It has a connotation, Master Gordo. But I don't think my husband would approve x

So do yours. Again, how dare you disrespect my request? You want your word list, I want mine.

Master has a lot of connotations and throughout history meant other things that you allude to.

So let's face it, you and your buddies (is that an ok address) are hypocrites. It's all about YOU!

 

[Winter_Fare]

So do yours. Again, how dare you disrespect my request? You want your word list, I want mine.

Master has a lot of connotations and throughout history meant other things that you allude to.

So let's face it, you and your buddies (is that an ok address) are hypocrites. It's all about YOU!

Pot to kettle x

 

[gordo12]

Pot to kettle x

Hoisted on your own petard!

 

[Winter_Fare]

The saying is hoist by your own petard

 

[gordo12]

The saying is "pot calling the kettle black."

Hoisted again!

Let's not be stupid about this. You've had your say. I've had mine. Time to go our separate ways.

 

[AlinaX]

Like fucking Mumsnet in here. They'll be bringing out the attack helicopters in a minute.

 

[AlinaX]

The saying is hoist by your own petard

Fascinating expression that. I love it.

 

[Comshaw]

Man did this go sideways! The OP asked for an opinion from the authors here. It wasn't specific to one section of authors who deal with that subject, but a shotgun blanket request to all. When a few disagree with the assessment (and for the most part politely), rather than address their argument, the OP (and others) insist those who responded have no right to chime in. WTF? Really? It would be another matter entirely if the OP had specified who they wanted an opinion from and others threw in an opinion, but that was not the case. Additionally, like all subjects, if you only hear what you want to hear, if you only get a response from those who agree with you, you will NEVER have the input to understand those who disagree, and therefore never have the information to construct a civil, cogent argument that might change their mind. There are only two ways to have someone acquiesce, by force (as in physical force or by yelling them down) or by changing their mind. The first rarely holds because most people despise being forced to do anything. The second makes for a solid ally in what ever struggle is going on.

A few other thoughts: if I meet a doctor in a medical office in a white coat with a stethoscope around his/her neck, or a priest in a church in his robes, sure I'll call them by their title. But if I meet them out dressed as the rest of us are and don't know them from Adam, how am I to know what title to tag them with? Demanding that I do so before I know who they are is arrogant and self-centered and I'm not going to take it seriously. I will call people by what they want me to, because it doesn't harm or really affect me, don't expect that I will like or agree with that choice. I will respect the choice of gender address by doing what is asked. In return, I expect respect for my choice not to either like it or agree with it if that is the case.

I think I've said enough
Comshaw

 

[gordo12]

Fascinating expression that. I love it.

Fascinating expression but the history behind it...mmm, not the best.

 

[Winter_Fare]

The saying is "pot calling the kettle black."

Hoisted again!

Let's not be stupid about this. You've had your say. I've had mine. Time to go our separate ways.

But here we still are.
I come here on the regular to be entertained
It is not a safe space, you should expect pushback if you talk smack.
But feel free to slink off whenever you're ready x

 

[AlinaX]

... the OP (and others) insist those who responded have no right to chime in. WTF? Really? It would be another matter entirely if the OP had specified who they wanted an opinion from and others threw in an opinion, but that was not the case. Additionally, like all subjects, if you only hear what you want to hear, if you only get a response from those who agree with you, you will NEVER have the input to understand those who disagree ...

This thread was derailed early on into a subject that is discussed to death with vitriol out in the real world. There is an interesting discussion to be had about characters, gender identity and pronouns, but it can't be had if people detour into personal grievances.

The whole echo chamber argument is tiresome. It reeks of attacks on safe spaces in universities ("Oh, students are such snowflakes! How will they learn about the real world if they deplatform all the fascists and bigots?") and attacks on trans people ("They keep saying, 'No debate,' but we have concerns!" as if it's not only acceptable but somehow necessary to debate taking away existing human rights.) when the simple truth is that right-wing assholes feel they have a God-given right to be heard. You try criticising a transphobe and they'll run screaming to the press about how they're being silenced.

 

[SimonDoom]

This thread was derailed early on into a subject that is discussed to death with vitriol out in the real world. There is an interesting discussion to be had about characters, gender identity and pronouns, but it can't be had if people detour into personal grievances.

The whole echo chamber argument is tiresome. It reeks of attacks on safe spaces in universities ("Oh, students are such snowflakes! How will they learn about the real world if they deplatform all the fascists and bigots?") and attacks on trans people ("They keep saying, 'No debate,' but we have concerns!" as if it's not only acceptable but somehow necessary to debate taking away existing human rights.) when the simple truth is that right-wing assholes feel they have a God-given right to be heard. You try criticising a transphobe and they'll run screaming to the press about how they're being silenced.

This is not an accurate characterization of what happened in this thread. Nobody in this thread has talked about snowflakes. Nobody is talking about safe spaces in universities. Nobody is attacking anybody. Nobody is a transphobe. I have expressed no personal grievance. I don't get the sense that anybody who has posted to this thread is truly "right wing." I know I'm not, because I think the right wing in the US--my country--is crazy. We're having a conversation, and because some people express themselves in ways that differ from those of others, unwarranted attacks are being made. I don't care what your personal situation is or what your politics are, but you (I mean this in the general "you" way, not you personally) don't have a right to make those attacks. Just have a conversation.

This thread, to me, is an excellent example of a big problem we have today in how we talk to one another. The OP raised a very important issue in this thread. It's a great topic for authors of erotic stories to talk about. There's not really that much substantive disagreement in this thread. But there is a dogmatic insistence today, that did not exist 30 years ago, about saying things a certain way, and it creates a totally unnecessary rancor in the way we talk to each other.

 

[AlinaX]

Wow, way to completely misread my post.

 

[Winter_Fare]

There's not really that much substantive disagreement in this thread. But there is a dogmatic insistence today, that did not exist 30 years ago, about saying things a certain way, and it creates a totally unnecessary rancor in the way we talk to each other.

Noooo Simon. Don't you get it?
Gordo said quite casually and on multiple posts that he couldn't be doing with the subject at all because it was "ridiculous". This might be a casual topic for you and I but it will never be a casual topic for people on the recieving end of that attitude IRL. And yes, some trans and non binary people couldn't give a shit but many are furious. Rancour is inevitable.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

But there is a dogmatic insistence today, that did not exist 30 years ago, about saying things a certain way, and it creates a totally unnecessary rancor in the way we talk to each other.

I see it differently, having been a student 30 years ago - back then it was much more about not saying what it was inconvenient to say. Been raped? Don't mention it to college nor the police. Denied promotion? Well, no-one likes a woman who makes a fuss. Been beaten up for looking queer? You shouldn't have been so obvious. Don't fit the gender binary? Pick the one which goes with your genitals and shut up, freak. Your genitals don't fit the sex binary? Get surgery and never tell anyone.

Now all those people are starting to speak up and refusing to be the ones told to shut it, and many of them have 20-60 years of pissed-off-ness coming out. The rancour isn't new; I reckon you just weren't exposed to it before.

I'm not sure if your metaphor was trying to say that yes, sex and gender are complicated, or to dismiss them as superficial, but certainly there's many people out there claiming there are Only Two Sexes and Gender Isn't A Thing - while many people don't experience much gender identity or have never had to think about it, for others it is a huge part of their mental image. I've likened it to feelings of religiousness - invisible, unprovable, but vitally important to those who experience it. And incomprehensible to those who don't.

Sex is way more complex than male or female anyway - as a character in my current draft mentions, "twenty years ago there was a prof downstairs, worked on sex determination, called Robert Massive-Wanker or something - he said there were at least 15 sexes in mice and god knows how many genders, and it would be daft to think that humans were any less complicated."

I'm seeing kids becoming adults who have never been scared of saying they're gay, who realise there are different ways of being masculine or feminine or avoiding either, who are unfazed by getting people's names or pronouns wrong and just correct themselves and keep going, and it's wonderful - and the drop in suicide rate and middle-aged divorce by people only then realising they're gay or trans is bloody wonderful too.

I reckon half the issue with transphobia is simply people thinking 'the world wasn't like this when I was young, and now I feel old,

 

[Bramblethorn]

I think back to the days when ‘Ms’ was promoted and rapidly accepted by the majority of the people. I personally wish we could do the same thing now and come up with singular gender neutral pronouns that are acceptable to the majority of the population. I just have trouble swallowing ‘They is…’

If that's your objection, Im happy to tell you that singular "they" doesn't require "they is". It takes the same declension as "you", which is to say the plural and singular forms work identically:

"you are my favourite person" (singular)
"they are my favourite person" (singular)
"you are my favourite people" (plural)
"they are my favourite people" (plural)

not:

"they is my favourite person".

 

[Bramblethorn]

As a matter of general principle, I do not agree with the sentiment "You don't get to be part of this conversation because you are a [fill in the blank] person."

A cis-person has no right to tell a trans person what pronouns the trans person should use. But it's not obvious that a trans person has the right to tell a cis-person, "You have to change the way you use the English language and pronouns to accommodate me and the way I want to be referred to."

I am not clear on whether you're talking about actual compelled speech here ("you will go to jail if you don't use a trans person's pronouns") or merely about a request ("if you don't use the pronouns they've requested, some of us will think you're a dickhead and treat you accordingly"). The phrasing "have to" kind of suggests you might be referring to compulsion, but I don't think that's what the rest of us were discussing.

Could you please clarify which of the two you mean here? Because they're very different things, and should probably be considered quite separately.

I suspect that usage WILL change and eventually we will settle on conventions (whatever they are) that most of us accept and it won't be a problem. But it's worth having a civil conversation about, and nobody should be excluded from the conversation.

See, to a great many of us, misgendering isn't "civil" and there is not a great deal of value in including people who've made it clear that they have no interest in being persuaded.