Proposed...No Dropping Out!

[BlackShanglan]

Personally, I would like to see more emphasis on making adult education available and encouraged. Many kids are too young to realize what they are losing when they drop out of high school - and that's not surprising. How many of us made our best and most informed choices when we were 16? As Colleen points out, it's nearly impossible to force people to stay in school, and fruitless as well. If they aren't interested in learning, forcing them to flunk a couple of years of high school while they seethe with resentment isn't likely to help. I'd rather see a system that is more flexible and more open to giving people the chance to learn when they are ready for it - that is, one in which people who have had a few years behind the counter in the food service industry can get themselves back on track and into a better life.

I recall that when one of my siblings was grumbling about whether to go to college or not, my parents had the perfect and most simple solution. It was quite acceptable not to go to college, so long as one didn't mind moving out, finding a job that required only a high school education, and paying rent and making a living that way. If one later decided that that didn't seem like a good idea, parental support in attending college was always available. As it happened, my sibling learned enough about the sorts of jobs available during high school to realize that they did not present an attractive view, but perhaps for some it's necessary to try it - and perhaps for some high school would-be drop-outs as well, the best cure might be a dose of reality. So long as there is education to return to, perhaps we could do worse than to let them go.

Shanglan

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Yeah. How effective are lawds against them having sex?

How do you propose to enfoce this?

What about students with a specific aptitude, say a kid who can already repair engines, or drive a dump truck, or operate a back hoe? For them, two more years of schooling is just denying them two years of work they could count towards their retirement and pensions, as well as two years worth of incremental raises.

Damn it, Colly, must you ALWAYS have a good point? That problem has occurred to me, though. Enforcability, the one of the problems with that I have had with the whole age of consent thing, anyway. But I was also thinking of the inherent inconsistency of having such laws and then letting guys drop out of high school. That and the alarming rate.

But you do have a point. All in all, I don't hold out much hope for drop-outs, but enforcing that kind of law would be a son of a bitch to pull off. Still, it was a thought that I had to propose and await the inevitable shitstorm for it. Especially as it goes against my usual Libertarian (well 45% Libertarian) tendencies.

 

[Kev H]

*once again laments the fact that the energy of youth and the experience/perspective of age are mutually exclusive in most cases*

It certainly makes good sense to take more of an empathetic approach toward youth. Is our society in too much of a hurry to turn out new productive citizens or too lax?

Could more organic-feeling ideas work on any large scale or is it asking for (greater) disaster?

 

[rgraham666]

My school system gave up on me when I was nine. If they could have, they would have booted me out then.

I'm a high school dropout. I make no bones about. Before I got ill I made a pretty decent living as a computer programmer. Which I taught myself.

I left because I knew there was no way on God's green earth I was going to pass. Due to a minor motor control problem I can't write well. So I couldn't finish tests. The system treats an unfinished test the same way it treats one full of wrong answers. The conclusion is the kid is stupid. And after years of this, the system gives up on the kid.

Maybe instead of forcing them to stay, we should find out why they leave, and fix that.

 

[rgraham666]

Furthermore, higher education is no guarantee of success.

I saw some stats recently. In Canada anyway, 1/3 of college and university graduates live below the poverty line.

As Peter Drucker put it, "The only thing a degree certifies is that the person has sat for a long time."

 

[sincerely_helene]

My school system gave up on me when I was nine. If they could have, they would have booted me out then.

I'm a high school dropout. I make no bones about. Before I got ill I made a pretty decent living as a computer programmer. Which I taught myself.

I left because I knew there was no way on God's green earth I was going to pass. Due to a minor motor control problem I can't write well. So I couldn't finish tests. The system treats an unfinished test the same way it treats one full of wrong answers. The conclusion is the kid is stupid. And after years of this, the system gives up on the kid.

Maybe instead of forcing them to stay, we should find out why they leave, and fix that.

Thank you.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Furthermore, higher education is no guarantee of success.

I saw some stats recently. In Canada anyway, 1/3 of college and university graduates live below the poverty line.

As Peter Drucker put it, "The only thing a degree certifies is that the person has sat for a long time."

I understand what you say, but I am alarmed about the number of kids with a future of flipping burgers. Maybe, like Shang said, they will return to it. I hope that our horsey friend is right here, but I am anxious about the future of these kids.

 

[cloudy]

I understand what you say, but I am alarmed about the number of kids with a future of flipping burgers. Maybe, like Shang said, they will return to it. I hope that our horsey friend is right here, but I am anxious about the future of these kids.

I think something that people are missing is that not everybody who doesn't graduate ends up "flipping burgers."

My husband's an asshole, but he makes more money than I did when I was working. He quit school in the eighth grade, and I have a college education.

Some do just fine, some don't, but I think its arrogance in the extreme to assume that simply because they don't hold a diploma that they automatically become failures.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

I think something that people are missing is that not everybody who doesn't graduate ends up "flipping burgers."

My husband's an asshole, but he makes more money than I did when I was working. He quit school in the eighth grade, and I have a college education.

Some do just fine, some don't, but I think its arrogance in the extreme to assume that simply because they don't hold a diploma that they automatically become failures.

Well, I hope that they don't become failures. I am just alarmed at the drop-out rates, that's all. I understand that many think it unnecessary and unenforceable. I was simply proposing a possible solution. Naturally, I wanted feedback, and I have gotten it. Just goes to show that great minds don't ALWAYS think alike. And I thought it more consistent with the view that teens are too young to make major decisions for themselves. Just a proposition. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

 

[cloudy]

Well, I hope that they don't become failures. I am just alarmed at the drop-out rates, that's all. I understand that many think it unnecessary and unenforceable. I was simply proposing a possible solution. Naturally, I wanted feedback, and I have gotten it. Just goes to show that great minds don't ALWAYS think alike. And I thought it more consistent with the view that teens are too young to make major decisions for themselves. Just a proposition. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Keeping kids from dropping out of school doesn't happen in the eighth grade, or the tenth, or whatever. It begins from the time they're born. Laws shouldn't be enacted to try to fix something that's wrong in familial attitudes towards education.

For example: I knew, from the earliest I can remember, that I was expected to do well in school, and to go to college. Dropping out was unthinkable in my family. All five of us went on to college - not all finished, but we went.

In other families, education is not viewed as a priority, and you can't fix that with a law.

For still other people....they don't learn the same way that others do, or they can't excel in an atmosphere like that that exists in schools. There should be other options for them.

I just take offense to the attitude that because they don't have a high school diploma, they're failures.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Keeping kids from dropping out of school doesn't happen in the eighth grade, or the tenth, or whatever. It begins from the time they're born. Laws shouldn't be enacted to try to fix something that's wrong in familial attitudes towards education.

For example: I knew, from the earliest I can remember, that I was expected to do well in school, and to go to college. Dropping out was unthinkable in my family. All five of us went on to college - not all finished, but we went.

In other families, education is not viewed as a priority, and you can't fix that with a law.

For still other people....they don't learn the same way that others do, or they can't excel in an atmosphere like that that exists in schools. There should be other options for them.

I just take offense to the attitude that because they don't have a high school diploma, they're failures.

Well, yours is a valid point, and I respect that. I was merely expressing alarm and proposing one POSSIBLE solution. Apparently, it had some pitfalls, but that's why I presented it: to get feedback on it.

 

[3113]

I left because I knew there was no way on God's green earth I was going to pass. Due to a minor motor control problem I can't write well. So I couldn't finish tests. The system treats an unfinished test the same way it treats one full of wrong answers. The conclusion is the kid is stupid. And after years of this, the system gives up on the kid.

You'll be happy to know that schools are better about that now. I can't speak for high schools, but I know that when I taught Community College, kids with disabilities, whatever those were, dyslexia included, were given extra time to finish a test. The teacher decided how much extra time they got (1/2 hour or more), and the test was sent to the disabled student's union were they took it under supervision. Time up, the test was sealed and sent back to the teacher.

 

[rgraham666]

That was much the case in my family.

In my family it was made pretty clear to me, every day and in every way, that I was not going to succeed in anything I did. Nothing I did was any good and after a while I gave up trying.

School didn't help. It, as I pointed out, gave up on me halfway through public school.

You want kids to not drop out? Give them some hope.

 

[rgraham666]

You'll be happy to know that schools are better about that now. I can't speak for high schools, but I know that when I taught Community College, kids with disabilities, whatever those were, dyslexia included, were given extra time to finish a test. The teacher decided how much extra time they got (1/2 hour or more), and the test was sent to the disabled student's union were they took it under supervision. Time up, the test was sealed and sent back to the teacher.

That's about 40 years too late for me.

And the wheel was turned back here in Ontario. We had a neo-con in control here for a decade. And anyone who didn't fit in the nice neat little boxes he assigned to people suffered for it.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Well, I hope that they don't become failures. I am just alarmed at the drop-out rates, that's all. I understand that many think it unnecessary and unenforceable. I was simply proposing a possible solution. Naturally, I wanted feedback, and I have gotten it. Just goes to show that great minds don't ALWAYS think alike. And I thought it more consistent with the view that teens are too young to make major decisions for themselves. Just a proposition. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Like Cloudy, I know a lot of HS dropouts who are doing better than some of my college grad freinds. If you have a natural aptitude or marketable skill, sometimes school is just an impediment to your career choice.

Dropping out with no options and dropping out to enter the workforce seem to be two different things. I wonder what percentage of those HS drop outs leave HS because they already have a good job lined up or a career in which the two years they waste in school would be a boon as working of their apprenticeship or having two years job experince?

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Like Cloudy, I know a lot of HS dropouts who are doing better than some of my college grad freinds. If you have a natural aptitude or marketable skill, sometimes school is just an impediment to your career choice.

Dropping out with no options and dropping out to enter the workforce seem to be two different things. I wonder what percentage of those HS drop outs leave HS because they already have a good job lined up or a career in which the two years they waste in school would be a boon as working of their apprenticeship or having two years job experince?

Hmmm....now an apprenticeship, that's a good idea to use more often. One of the pre-industrial babies that seem to have been thrown out with the bathwater. Too bad. Many people would do well with that kind of deal. One doesn't hear much about that anymore.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Hmmm....now an apprenticeship, that's a good idea to use more often. One of the pre-industrial babies that seem to have been thrown out with the bathwater. Too bad. Many people would do well with that kind of deal. One doesn't hear much about that anymore.

It's still pretty common, it's just titled work experience n ow. Even up here in liberal looneyland when you apply for a state job, five years related work experince will substitute for a degree for most state jobs that don't require a masters or better.

For example, five years doing the bookkeeping for a local small bussiness will let you test for a job opening in accounting that otherwise requires a BA. And just one year of apprenticeship will Verizon will substitute for a four year degree in electronics if you are aplying for a linesman job with one of the small time telco firms.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

It's still pretty common, it's just titled work experience n ow. Even up here in liberal looneyland when you apply for a state job, five years related work experince will substitute for a degree for most state jobs that don't require a masters or better.

For example, five years doing the bookkeeping for a local small bussiness will let you test for a job opening in accounting that otherwise requires a BA. And just one year of apprenticeship will Verizon will substitute for a four year degree in electronics if you are aplying for a linesman job with one of the small time telco firms.

That's good news at least. It reminds me of the scene in "The Secret of My Success", where Michael J. Fox asks the hiring supervisor why he went to college if there was an executive training program straight out of high school. The man answered, "You had fun, didn't ya?"