"Rape Culture"

[THROBBS]

From a thread in the Authors' Hangout (it was suggested that the topic be given its own thread elsewhere)

The problem with the whole "rape culture" meme...

the rest of the quote can be (should be) read in the AH.


"meme"?
It seems to me, calling "rape culture" a "meme" is being dismissive— reducing a useful term in order to justify ingrained behaviors.

I know that everyone has their opinions, and that most of us will spout them off, without listening/reading/delving or further introspection, BUT I suggest that it is worth 20 minutes to watch LISTEN (that's the important part) to this TED talk>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTvSfeCRxe8#t=535

As a "bystander" (neither a victim nor a perpetrator. a term use din the TED talk), prior to seeing hearing this TED talk, I chose to request one of my illustration be removed from the "Adult Illustrations" (in BETA testing) section of LIT, because, on introspection, I felt that it could be misconstrued to be endorsing our rape culture in it's depiction of what I originally considered to be "just a fantasy".

I feel that I know the difference between fantasy and reality. Sadly, we, as a society, blur those lines (even in the song by the name "blurred lines") and while, maybe not endorsing "rape", we are complicit in building the petri dish which incubates and nurtures an attitude where abuse (subtle and horrendous) flourishes.

 

[zipman]

From a thread in the Authors' Hangout (it was suggested that the topic be given its own thread elsewhere)

the rest of the quote can be (should be) read in the AH.


"meme"?
It seems to me, calling "rape culture" a "meme" is being dismissive— reducing a useful term in order to justify ingrained behaviors.

I know that everyone has their opinions, and that most of us will spout them off, without listening/reading/delving or further introspection, BUT I suggest that it is worth 20 minutes to watch LISTEN (that's the important part) to this TED talk>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTvSfeCRxe8#t=535

As a "bystander" (neither a victim nor a perpetrator. a term use din the TED talk), prior to seeing hearing this TED talk, I chose to request one of my illustration be removed from the "Adult Illustrations" (in BETA testing) section of LIT, because, on introspection, I felt that it could be misconstrued to be endorsing our rape culture in it's depiction of what I originally considered to be "just a fantasy".

I feel that I know the difference between fantasy and reality. Sadly, we, as a society, blur those lines (even in the song by the name "blurred lines") and while, maybe not endorsing "rape", we are complicit in building the petri dish which incubates and nurtures an attitude where abuse (subtle and horrendous) flourishes.

Why is it society's fault (culture) and not just bad parenting?

 

[THROBBS]

Why is it society's fault (culture) and not just bad parenting?

Parents are part of society.
It is not a situation of "just" any one thing— it is something that is systemic.

You can have good parenting in the midst of of society/culture which encourages bad behavior.

If one is so motivated, one can "take on" the issue, as the TEDtalker has. For me, I understand, that I have to address myself 1st, and then act accordingly.

just a ripple.

 

[Que]

I view those two words together the same way I view "Racism" and the new and improved version of it "White Privilege" which conveniently means only white people can engage in racism.

If you have something to say about an example of racism, you don't need a nifty label, the thing will speak for itself.

The same thing about all manner of issues of violence against women. Is anyone in favor of that? ...and is picking a label designed to shift all possible issues squarely in the camp of one group of people make what you have to say suddenly more valid?

Whether you cry wolf, racism, or rape when it is debatable, you diminish the dialog about it, not increase it. What is more important: reducing the incidence of the problem, or being right when you talk about it?

And before I get jumped (no doubt) for being part of the "Rape Culture" because I haven't "checked my white male privilege." I will give an example of a debatable point in the "Rape Culture" meme:

I do not believe that every incidence of penis in vagina intercourse is a "violation." Sometimes, it slides right in.

There shouldn't even BE two sides on the issue of rape. When one side takes it THAT far and silences all discussion by explaining that we are all numbed to their reality by the prevalence of "rape culture" it is not healthy.

 

[THROBBS]

I view those two words together the same way I view "Racism" and the new and improved version of it "White Privilege" which conveniently means only white people can engage in racism.

If you have something to say about an example of racism, you don't need a nifty label, the thing will speak for itself.

The same thing about all manner of issues of violence against women. Is anyone in favor of that? ...and is picking a label designed to shift all possible issues squarely in the camp of one group of people make what you have to say suddenly more valid?

Whether you cry wolf, racism, or rape when it is debatable, you diminish the dialog about it, not increase it. What is more important: reducing the incidence of the problem, or being right when you talk about it?

And before I get jumped (no doubt) for being part of the "Rape Culture" because I haven't "checked my white male privilege." I will give an example of a debatable point in the "Rape Culture" meme:

I do not believe that every incidence of penis in vagina intercourse is a "violation." Sometimes, it slides right in.

There shouldn't even BE two sides on the issue of rape. When one side takes it THAT far and silences all discussion by explaining that we are all numbed to their reality by the prevalence of "rape culture" it is not healthy.

By talking (not silencing) about "rape culture", I suggest that we are bringing it to light — waking ourselves from that numbness. I believe that is healthy. We are all in this culture together, whether it is labeled a "rape culture" or not.

 

[subdued_passion]

How is "rape culture" a useful term?

There is nothing new about rape or any of the factors that lead to that kind of violence. The fact that you have incidents of rape taking place in all parts of the world, in different strata of society irrespective of age and gender proves that there is no specific culture in place fostering rapists.

 

[THROBBS]

How is "rape culture" a useful term?

There is nothing new about rape or any of the factors that lead to that kind of violence. The fact that you have incidents of rape taking place in all parts of the world, in different strata of society irrespective of age and gender proves that there is no specific culture in place fostering rapists.

I believe it is useful, in that it carries a bit of "shock value"— pointing how, what may seem harmless but of joking, lyrics, advertising, actually fosters a misogynistic status quo. Certainly we (Western "culture") can point fingers and say, "but they are worse!".

The term is arguably misleading, in that one is likely to focus the "rape" word vs "rape-culture", which is all that fosters a rapey environment.... more accurately, perhaps an "abuse culture"?

 

[Que]

By talking (not silencing) about "rape culture", I suggest that we are bringing it to light — waking ourselves from that numbness. I believe that is healthy. We are all in this culture together, whether it is labeled a "rape culture" or not.

I have never been numb or unclear about rape. I don't know anyone that is.

Let's say I am feeling charitable and will grant that there are sexual assaults that may not be classified as rape.

I am still not unclear about that, nor do I know anyone that is.

Talking about "sexual assault culture" is equally unproductive. People (usually, but not always ,men) that engage in such assaults are criminals and they really don't care what you call it in your monolog about "culture"

When loaded concepts like that are brought to the table...only one group is "talking."

You want to have an interesting dialog about social interaction between genders for example and perhaps lead to greater understanding, tucking it under the umbrella of rape does not accomplish that.

The culture I was raised in included verbiage like "nor anything like unto it."

As in "Whosoever looketh upon a woman with lust has already committed adultery in his heart." We wouldn't want to go THERE in this little dialog about rape culture, would we? WAY too "judgey".

 

[subdued_passion]

I believe it is useful, in that it carries a bit of "shock value"— pointing how, what may seem harmless but of joking, lyrics, advertising, actually fosters a misogynistic status quo. Certainly we (Western "culture") can point fingers and say, "but they are worse!".

Why do men (we'll only talk about men since that's what the video or your thread so far has been about) commit rape?

Do they do it because they think they can get away with it? If yes, then we can blame society and the culture.

 

[THROBBS]

I have never been numb or unclear about rape. I don't know anyone that is.

Let's say I am feeling charitable and will grant that there are sexual assaults that may not be classified as rape.

I am still not unclear about that, nor do I know anyone that is.

Talking about "sexual assault culture" is equally unproductive. People (usually, but not always ,men) that engage in such assaults are criminals and they really don't care what you call it in your monolog about "culture"

When loaded concepts like that are brought to the table...only one group is "talking."

You want to have an interesting dialog about social interaction between genders for example and perhaps lead to greater understanding, tucking it under the umbrella of rape does not accomplish that.

You're talking.

I'm listening.

That you or I are not unclear about rape. I believe that you and I have been unclear/unaware about what has become acceptable and normative.
I am perfectly willing to pull the discussion out form under the "rape umbrella", if that is what is required to accomplish an equitable healthier place.

 

[Que]

I believe it is useful, in that it carries a bit of "shock value"— pointing how, what may seem harmless but of joking, lyrics, advertising, actually fosters a misogynistic status quo. Certainly we (Western "culture") can point fingers and say, "but they are worse!".

The term is arguably misleading, in that one is likely to focus the "rape" word vs "rape-culture", which is all that fosters a rapey environment.... more accurately, perhaps an "abuse culture"?

There is no such word as rapey. It's like being a little pregnant. Either you are comporting yourself as a civilized member of society or you are not. It diminishes rape to turn it into a weak adjective.

The finger pointing I see never (just for a minor example) points to the consequences of the sexualization of our "culture". That is seen as liberating.

There is no "misogynistic status quo"...there are examples of misogyny or the absence of it.

Go ahead and have a classic women's studies class with it's emotionally charged rhetoric ... just like in university it isn't one men are going to participate in.

 

[subdued_passion]

I believe it is useful, in that it carries a bit of "shock value"— pointing how, what may seem harmless but of joking, lyrics, advertising, actually fosters a misogynistic status quo. Certainly we (Western "culture") can point fingers and say, "but they are worse!".

The term is arguably misleading, in that one is likely to focus the "rape" word vs "rape-culture", which is all that fosters a rapey environment.... more accurately, perhaps an "abuse culture"?

I just noticed your edit. What do you mean by an "abuse culture"? If I consider the history of mankind I'd say we've toned down on our propensity for physical violence a great deal.

At the end of the day as query pointed out, whatever labels we may choose to employ the perpetrators don't care. Most "abusers" are of sound mind and are fully aware of their actions as well as the pursuant consequences.

If you want to talk about a culture let's talk about victim blaming. And lets not limit this to a gender or a specific crime.

 

[THROBBS]

Why do men (we'll only talk about men since that's what the video or your thread so far has been about) commit rape?

Do they do it because they think they can get away with it? If yes, then we can blame society and the culture.

I think that may be part of the why. I think that men are encouraged to look at women objectively. Certainly, as human beings, we assess most everything (human and otherwise) objectively to some extent. That is how we process— we categorize— we group and generalize.

In a peaceful and healthy society, I believe we need to work against some of our base tendencies. There will always be those who cannot. People are on a spectrum. No, people are on various spectrums.

 

[THROBBS]

There is no such word as rapey. It's like being a little pregnant. Either you are comporting yourself as a civilized member of society or you are not. It diminishes rape to turn it into a weak adjective.

The finger pointing I see never just for a minor example points to the consequences of the sexualization of our "culture". That is seen as liberating.

There is no "misogynistic status quo"...there are examples of misogyny or the absence of it.

Go ahead and have a classic women's studies class with it's emotionally charged rhetoric ... just like in university it isn't one men are going to participate in.

A "rapey ENVIRONMENT"...one in which rape can and does occur with frequency.

Men are not inclined to participate— because of our "rape culture". Some men might particpate, some men will... baby steps.

 

[subdued_passion]

I think that may be part of the why. I think that men are encouraged to look at women objectively. Certainly, as human beings, we assess most everything (human and otherwise) objectively to some extent. That is how we process— we categorize— we group and generalize.

In a peaceful and healthy society, I believe we need to work against some of our base tendencies. There will always be those who cannot. People are on a spectrum. No, people are on various spectrums.

Objectification does not always lead to violence. You only need to skim through AmPics to see that some people seek to be objectified. Is that promoting a culture of abuse?


Anyway, as you've admitted with all our dialogue there will always be a section of society that will not be able to restrain their base needs. What's the percentage you reckon? Now according to you what's the ratio of people committing any form of gender violence to those that are not?


I'm not implying that talking about this is a futile exercise. I'm just saying that it's not going to fix the problem you're looking to fix.

 

[THROBBS]

I just noticed your edit. What do you mean by an "abuse culture"? If I consider the history of mankind I'd say we've toned down on our propensity for physical violence a great deal.

At the end of the day as query pointed out, whatever labels we may choose to employ the perpetrators don't care. Most "abusers" are of sound mind and are fully aware of their actions as well as the pursuant consequences.

If you want to talk about a culture let's talk about victim blaming. And lets not limit this to a gender or a specific crime.

In the History of mankind, perhaps we have tone down.
However, I believe that an "Abuse culture" still exists. WE are "perpetraotors" to some extent, by virtue (ha!) of our silence— our tacit approval, of language and actions (short of rape, but potentially leading to).


Did you watch/listen to the talk?

One of his key points is that of this (abuse) being a MALE issue— while not denying that it is indeed an issue for women, AND children (of both genders).

 

[Que]

I think that may be part of the why. I think that men are encouraged to look at women objectively. Certainly, as human beings, we assess most everything (human and otherwise) objectively to some extent. That is how we process— we categorize— we group and generalize.

In a peaceful and healthy society, I believe we need to work against some of our base tendencies. There will always be those who cannot. People are on a spectrum. No, people are on various spectrums.

Your ideas, I am sorry to say, are flat out kooky. To the point that I find them offensive and misandrist.

The word you are looking for is "objectify" as in a man might look at a woman as merely a sex object; He is then "objectifying" her.

A man looking at a woman as the sum of her parts including the ones that happen to trigger arousal for his particular predispositions and predilections can not be said to be objectifying if he is at the same time viewing her as a person with feelings, goals and desires of her own.

It is possible to get a hard-on whilst NOT objectifying a woman.

What sort of "work" would you have us in this peaceful and healthy society to tame our base tendencies?" I like mine the way they are, thanks.

Being talked down to based on my gender doesn't give me warm, fuzzy feelings towards the "fairer sex"

 

[THROBBS]

Objectification does not always lead to violence. You only need to skim through AmPics to see that some people seek to be objectified. Is that promoting a culture of abuse?

Perhaps. I looked to my own drawings, and one, specifically, I felt fell into this category.


Anyway, as you've admitted with all our dialogue there will always be a section of society that will not be able to restrain their base needs. What's the percentage you reckon? I have no ideaNow according to you what's the ratio of people committing any form of gender violence to those that are not?also no clue. There is no "according to me" statistical ratio


I'm not implying that talking about this is a futile exercise. I'm just saying that it's not going to fix the problem you're looking to fix. "fix"? no, never. We are human beings, with all that entails. Diminish/reduce the problem? I think so.

hmmmm...

 

[Que]

A "rapey ENVIRONMENT"...one in which rape can and does occur with frequency.

Men are not inclined to participate— because of our "rape culture". Some men might particpate, some men will... baby steps.

Oh I am sorry ...I thought this was to debate whether we should even HAVE a phrase like "rape culture"

Apparently that is all settled and we live in a "rape culture" . I guess the reason I think you are bat-shit crazy is because rape culture has so hardened my morals. my motivation, and my will power that I am unaware of all the many and sundry ways that I nearly rape women everyday.

I wonder what you think of non-rape cultures where actual rape is condoned?

Just a safty pro tip: Rape can and does occur with frequency any place you can think of including campuses that spew this sort of drivel.

 

[THROBBS]

Your ideas, I am sorry to say, are flat out kooky. To the point that I find them offensive and misandrist.

Seriously?

The word you are looking for is "objectify" as in a man might look at a woman as merely a sex object; He is then "objectifying" her. ah. Thanks

A man looking at a woman as the sum of her parts including the ones that happen to trigger arousal for his particular predispositions and predilections can not be said to be objectifying if he is at the same time viewing her as a person with feelings, goals and desires of her own.

It is possible to get a hard-on whilst NOT objectifying a woman.

What sort of "work" would you have us in this peaceful and healthy society to tame our base tendencies?" I like mine the way they are, thanks. Then, you will continue on, as you are. I would suggest, always working towards being at least, occasionally, introspective and thoughtful about what we do and say and think. Kooky, i know!

Being talked down to based on my gender doesn't give me warm, fuzzy feelings towards the "fairer sex" who has talked down to you? Does it make you angry? Does it make you want to throw things?

........

 

[subdued_passion]

In the History of mankind, perhaps we have tone down.
However, I believe that an "Abuse culture" still exists. WE are "perpetraotors" to some extent, by virtue (ha!) of our silence— our tacit approval, of language and actions (short of rape, but potentially leading to).


Did you watch/listen to the talk?

One of his key points is that of this (abuse) being a MALE issue— while not denying that it is indeed an issue for women, AND children (of both genders).

Unless you belong to one of the villages in India where women get raped on the orders of the sarpanch and everyone else, including the family members stand by or partake, can you please explain how are you a "perpetrator" by virtue of silence?


I've been listening to it in bits and pieces (multi-tasking), I'm about 80% through. I consider rape to be a genderless crime. I don't like it being classified in any way.


You want to fix the culture of abuse? Have the perpetrators chemically castrated or better yet let the victims decide the fate.

 

[THROBBS]

Oh I am sorry ...I thought this was to debate whether we should even HAVE a phrase like "rape culture"

Apparently that is all settled and we live in a "rape culture" . I guess the reason I think you are bat-shit crazy is because rape culture has so hardened my morals. my motivation, and my will power that I am unaware of all the many and sundry ways that I nearly rape women everyday.

I wonder what you think of non-rape cultures where actual rape is condoned?

Just a safty pro tip: Rape can and does occur with frequency any place you can think of including campuses that spew this sort of drivel.

This thread was not just about the terminology, at all.

Do you treat women fairly and kindly?

I cannot think of any "non-rape cultures where actual rape is condoned", do you have examples?

So you feel that this discussion is "drivel"? Yes, rape can and does occur all over. I feel that is, in part (not exclusively or solely) due to a culture which encourages abusive behavior (at least up to rape)— and because of crazies, of course.

 

[THROBBS]

Unless you belong to one of the villages in India where women get raped on the orders of the sarpanch and everyone else, including the family members stand by or partake, can you please explain how are you a "perpetrator" by virtue of silence?


I've been listening to it in bits and pieces (multi-tasking), I'm about 80% through. I consider rape to be a genderless crime. I don't like it being classified in any way.


You want to fix the culture of abuse? Have the perpetrators chemically castrated or better yet let the victims decide the fate.

I'd LIKE to "fix" the "culture of abuse". I am not naive, I am suggesting that if I were to leave my illustration up, I would be a " 'perpetrator' by virtue of silence." I would have been adding to the problem, not calling out my own complicity in the problem— being a non-vocal bystander. You'll get to that bit that the TED-talker speaks of.

 

[Que]

I suffer fools unkindly without regard to gender.

Yes, I think it is drivel...I was trying to be polite.

No culture has NOTHING to do with it.

No one looks for societal acceptance when they abuse another person for their own gratification.

My point about "unrapey' cultures id they are RAPE cultures, not 'rapey'...the actually condone it.

Statistically we are becoming a safer society on all levels of actual violence including rape and sexual assault.

In my view that is much to do with women choosing to make themselves harder targets. Mace, tasers and ~shudder~ firearms.

Better lighting partially and modern security cameras have probably helped to.

Here's a project for you. a very large percentage of murder is gang on gang violence...why don't you get a grant and go have some sensitivity training with those young men? Have a chat with them about their culture?

 

[subdued_passion]

I'd LIKE to "fix" the "culture of abuse". I am not naive, I am suggesting that if I were to leave my illustration up, I would be a " 'perpetrator' by virtue of silence.' I would have been adding to the problem, not calling out my own complicity in the problem— being a non-vocal bystander. You'll get to the but hat the TED-talker speaks of.

That is very responsible of you while also being a tad presumptuous, to think that you could evoke such a strong reaction in any individual. People will only act on suggestions they are already susceptible to.


It is another form of censorship inflicted upon the arts. I've seen painting destroyed for being nudes because it'll stir those base emotions and lead to the abusing of the womenfolk.