Religion's influence on sexual freedom

[assister49]

In your opinion, how has the church (and religion in general) influenced the sexuality of humans?

My husband and I have a very healthy partnership in terms of communication, acceptance, mutual assistance, love and support for each other. We are active in our church; we teach, and take part in mission work and other aid to the less fortunate. We also have a very fulfilling sex life which includes sexual exploration, erotic literature, toys, fantasy, and role play; just between the two of us.

We had to first overcome, however, the ingrained sense of “wrongness” in taking sex beyond its “normal” mode of mission style, only to procreate, puritan sense of duty – I suspect the product of a combination of our parents, our religious upbringing, and the American culture.

For instance, within Christianity, Paul’s influence on the early church changed the basic premise of Jesus’ message of love and forgiveness into one focusing on obedience by guilt, ritual, and sexual abhorrence. Why must there be such conflict between the Pauline teachings of sexual immorality and our basic sexual humanness, need for love, and desire? Sex is not a sin, although some would have us believe otherwise.

I would be curious to know how others feel, and if other religions have similar conflicts within their teachings.

 

[Ms_Kat]

My husband is the son of a Southern Baptist preacher and I was raised in a rather conservative Catholic household. Because he wasn't Catholic, the local priest refused to marry us inside the Church, so we got married by his father in their Church. When you come from a background like that, you have huge pressure to adhere to the traditional image of what man and wife should be.

It came close to ruining our marriage and killing me. I've posted the story elsewhere, but the short version is that for the first few years of our marriage my husband suffered from premature ejaculation (a better description is that I suffered). During this time, I had two miscarriages. The message I got from both sides of the family was that I should pray for strength and look for comfort in God's will. When I was angry, I was told that I was not being obedient to God. When I was hurt, I was told I was being disciplined and made a stronger vessel for His work.

It finally reached a breaking point and we took the path that led us to where we are now. I am dominant and my husband is very happy being totally subservient to me. I'm sure this would just totally blow the minds of his parents and my priest.

As difficult as it was to come to grips with that about-face in our relationship, it was even more difficult to accept my bisexuality. I've always been aroused by other women. Even in high school I was often teased in the locker room about being cold.

It was actually a conversation with a retired nun that brought me to peace about it. She was close to 90 at the time (she is now dead) and she said that when she took her Holy Order vows that the sisterhood actually promoted lesbianism in its members. Since women were not considered to be able to enjoy sex, they obviously could not have sex with each other. Lesbianism was considered to be the equivalent of sisterly love. She revealed to me that her "roommate" had actually been her lover for a good 40 years. Lesbianism only became sinful when the men who run the Church found out that women can have orgasms.

I have come to believe that God created our bodies so that we could enjoy sex with each other. It is more than just a way to make babies. It provides us with fulfillment and happiness. It binds us together in ways that nothing else can. It can truly be a holy thing between people.

It doesn't matter what roles we take with each other. What matters is that we enjoy the body that God stuck us in. It's the only one we have.

I've recently begun training a young man to be submissive. Although I've engaged in oral sex with him, I've not yet crossed the Rubicon and had actual vaginal sex with him. The main reason I haven't is that I still can't convince myself that it doesn't profane my marriage. I've had female lovers since my marriage and it hasn't bothered me. This one does. I want to. Every inch of me is aroused by this young man. My husband knows and he is supportive, even encouraging me to do it. Of course, the young man is anxious as I would be his first time.

In short, my sexual life has always been at odds with my Church teachings. I can't say it is at odds with my spirituality, though, because I believe spirituality transcends the Church. One thing I learned from my husband is that intermediaries are not needed. I can worship and receive blessing directly.

I do believe that parts of the Bible have outlived the usefulness. I can only pray that the sexual restrictiveness of the Bible was a misinterpretation by man or that God truly can forgive me for enjoying my body.



Hugs,


Kat

 

[dollface007]

I grew up in a relatively liberal (in the political sense) but religious Catholic family. I have been very active in church in the past and still consider myself to be Christian. However, i am currently struggling with the idea of being Catholic (although there is no other religion i would currently be interested in converting to) and the Catholic Church as an institution.

The main point of contention is the Church's beliefs, teachings, attitudes, and rules about women's sexuality, reproductive rights, vocations, deference to men, etc. Recent scandals in the Catholic Church and incidents with clergy i know personally have disillusioned me further. Evidently, supposedly celibate priests are allowed to have sexual relationships (straight, gay, pedophilic, etc) as long as it's kept quiet, but women are not allowed to be sexual outside of marriage. Even then, women should be imprisoned by their own fertility and not allowed to control their own reproductive organs. The idea that a celibate man who really has no more spiritual power or authority greater than mine can tell me what to do with my body totally infuriates me.

I know that there are alot of good things about Catholicism and Christianity in general, and i know alot of people within the Catholic Church who are great spiritual leaders and superb human beings. However, reconciling their ideas with my feminist beliefs has been very difficult.

 

[Betticus]

I think Ms_Kat nailed it on the head. I'm going to have to agree with everything she said. I didn't know about the lesbianism in the church and the reason that it suddenly became a sin though, that was very interesting.

Thanks for the cool post.

 

[deaflepperd]

For instance, within Christianity, Paul’s influence on the early church changed the basic premise of Jesus’ message of love and forgiveness into one focusing on obedience by guilt, ritual, and sexual abhorrence. Why must there be such conflict between the Pauline teachings of sexual immorality and our basic sexual humanness, need for love, and desire? Sex is not a sin, although some would have us believe otherwise.

I would be curious to know how others feel, and if other religions have similar conflicts within their teachings. [/B][/QUOTE]

I also am a regular church goer and was raised a Christian young man.
I had issued with sexuality and what was considered "immoral" in my younger days.

I then decided that being sexual was just part of being alive, being human. Being normal.

I must admit, though, that I do not share a lot with my friends in the congregation. A few close friends in the church know that I am intimate with my girlfriend. Others in the church would be appalled, but that is their problem, not mine. And it's my business, between God and ME, not Me and them.

Thanks for the thought-provoking post!

 

[sheath]

Re: Re: Religion's influence on sexual freedom

I must admit, though, that I do not share a lot with my friends in the congregation. A few close friends in the church know that I am intimate with my girlfriend. Others in the church would be appalled, but that is their problem, not mine. And it's my business, between God and ME, not Me and them.

BINGO!

Over the years of searching through my head and my heart, I have learned that the only thing that truly matters when it comes to religion is exactly what deaflepperd said. I might not believe in all the teachings of my childhood, and I might not believe in the same God I believed in back then. But the point is...It's MY relationship with my God. Whatever I do, whatever choices I make, are between me and my significant other...and the only person I have to answer to is my God. Nobody else.

I believe that sex in the context of a loving, trusting relationship is not wrong. I believe relationships take many forms, and that sexuality within the bonds of marriage is not necessarily the absolute. I believe sex can bond two people in a way that nothing else can, and that it can be holy in and of itself, if the emotional is there as well as the physical. Some would argue that one cannot be closer to God than that moment of closest emotional love between two people. I think I might agree with that.

I think it is more important to be able to look at myself in the mirror each morning, and have no regrets, than to answer to an edict handed down by someone who claims to speak for the masses when it comes to what I should or should not believe.

In the end, it's a personal choice. And I simply cannot find the sense in any religion that says something so natural, so personal, so wonderful and so loving between two people can possibly be wrong.

S.

 

[Vixandra]

Joys of being raised "outside the church" as my hubby's family puts it. Didn't go to church as a child, mother wouldn't allow it. Hated her diety after a miscarriage. So I never really got all of those "sex is a sin" stigmata's that other got. Even my beloved got some of that, though not much, especially considering he's Catholic. I term his family as "Catholic-lite" ie follow the sane stuff, the rest of it is babble. My kind of inlaws.
Personally- well, allowed to draw my own conclusions from what I read and observed as a kid, I'm a happy pagan of Wiccan orientation (now there's a mouthful for those stupid "what religion are you" questions).
I believe that Goddess created both male and female forms in the image of her and her Consort. Gave them the gift of pleasure and as long as its given freely, has not problems with it. Doesn't matter the genders or the numbers involved, as long as everyones willing and old enough to know its right for them.
Guess my faith doesn't really influence my sexual limits or lack there of, as the case may be in some things. A truely loving diety would want her/his/its children/creations to be happy, right?

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

I too follow a paganistic belief system like Ms. Vix above me. I spent years hearing that what made me, ME, was completely amoral and that I was nasty for being *GAY*.

Mayhap it was that which took me from the church, but since leaving I am content and happy with my sexuality and all the little quirks that go with it.

I am sure my God/dess has no problem with my sexuality and I believe my choices are between s/he and I..no-one else need know about my lifestyle.

 

[Stiffy Says...]

interesting thread - kudos for starting it!

Being raised in a conservatie religion (Assembly of God and occasionally Baptist when A of G churches were not around on Sunday) I have to cop to some serious sexual hangups that I am still working through thanks to the idealogy, the constant threat of damnation and so on.

I wonder at times if my latent bi-curiosity was spurred by the "homosexuality is what destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, and led to Lot's wife being turned to a pillar of salt" or the "homosexuality is evil" thing.

I like to think that more of my interest in fidelity was spurred by coming of awareness (10 years old) when Rock Hudson was said to have AIDS - and the panic ensued. (remember when they thought that being in the same room made you susceptible to AIDS, anyone?)

I am sure many religions are less traumatic to parishoners than mine, and I espouse belief that any God of mine wants people to be happy, and glorify "him/her" with their happiness and living by the golden rule, etc. Hopefully someday my subconscious can be consistent with my conscious on that.

 

[ReadyOne]

SO and I, who had been living together for a year and made no bones about it. The single's minister at the large church knew, we were listed in the directory at the same address with two different names, and we'd told several in our Sunday school class.

The one day out of the blue (just before we returned from a mission trip!) The Missions Pastor told us that the Senior Pastor said that because we were living in sin, we could do nothing public that associated us with the church in any way, such as speaking or praying in the service, being part of the healing prayer group, or going on mission trips.

There was no discussion; no warning; no invitation to repent. We weren't counseled to get married or stop having sex. The Senior Pastor wouldn't even meet with us

(Note they had no qualms about taking our labor in Central America before telling us we couldn't go any any more missions. Further, there was a smell of politics involving the prayer team and the singles pastor. Nor was another couple openly living together challenged).

Now it turns out that the Senior Pastor, within a week of our being told we were persona non gratis, was confessing to staff-parish that he was downloading porn on the church computer. They told him to stop doing it and nothing more about be said. The porn problem information was withheld from the congregation.

A year after that, a computer tech was working on his machine, found more porn, and went public.

The Senior Pastor was promoted to District Superintendent.

We'd forgiven (like a couple of days after we got home from the mission trip) the Pastor and the church for our treatment. And we don't hold the church per se responsible for the pastor and the porn -- it's made up of people who make mistakes.

We decided at the time that the reason we were singled out was to offer an opportunity for that church to practice (or realize they were not practicing) the way of dealing with sinners (see Matthew where Jesus says to go privately and ask them to repent).

IMHO, there are a lot of people in church leadership who play at being holy.

 

[ReadyOne]

A minister who is a good friend of ours, and was a Senior Pastor at a medium sized church, had this experience with his Bishop.

The pastor's marriage had been rocky for many years and his wife secretly wanted very much for them to separate. He formed a deep friendship with his secretary who was also in a bad marriage.

But being honorably people, they recognized their feelings for each other and the situation they were in, and made it a point not to get romantically involved. SO and I know both of them, and we're 99.44% sure they did not ever become sexually involved.

For logistical reasons, one day the pastor and secretary were working in the pastor's home. When his wife found out, she gave him 12 hours to fire the secretary or she would call the Bishop and accuse him of fornication. He refused.

This kind, loving, honorable man then talked to the secretary's husband, who realized his marriage had been over a while and gave the pastor and his wife his blessings.

Then the pastor talked to the Bishop, briefly explained the situation (I'm having marital problems; my wife wants to divorce me and blame the church secretary), and agreed that he would work on his marriage. A meeting was set with the District Superintendent to learn the scope of the problem and set down the terms of his repentance and rehabilitation. The Bishop gathered almost no information but referred the situation to the DS.

Near the end of the meeting, when the "get-well" plan was finished, something needed to be ask of the Bishop. The Superintendent placed the call, and before anything could be reported or ask, the Bishop demanded the unconditional resignation and license of the pastor.

Now this pastor has served on the Diocese discipline board for several years and knows where the bodies are buried. He mentioned to me several people with much graver offenses who were only reprimanded or who's repentance was accepted, including one who was having open affairs with different parishioners. No one has come close to loosing his license, save my friend who lost his.

So after going hat in hand to Bishop to confess and ask for help with the situation (as opposed to being accused), and having worked out his salvation with the Superintendent as instructed by the Bishop, suddenly the Bishop with no knowledge of any specific facts and without investigating or asking the DS for a report, cashiered the guy.

What almost certainly happened was that a right wing conservative faction of the congregation, which had been looking for a couple of years to have the pastor replaced, got the ear of the Bishop in a preemptive strike. It's interesting to look at the very small number of people who knew what was going on to see who could have leaked the information... And the reason the conservatives has never gotten anywhere previously with replacing the pastor was that most people liked him and wanted his ministry.

So politics raises its head again, along with blatant disregard for dignity, justice, accountability, repentance, forgiveness, and renewal.

(After he was fired, he, his secretary, and her husband met again, and amicably decided that she could leave her marriage. As the pastor put it, "We didn't come close to fornicating before they took my license, but afterward we sure made up for lost time!"

The pastor's wife had papers filed before the couple got back from a short trip to get away from it all.

And there's a new Bishop now; the old one took up teaching at a seminary.)

IMHO, many people in the church are on a self-aggrandizement power trip and don't care to ask God what his will is.

 

[UnseenChagrin]

I believe that part of my inability to adhere to most religions' teachings is that I cannot, with any part of my being, believe that ANY God would not allow his/her people to be happy. Sex is enjoyable and a natural thing for us; why would any God create us like this just to tell people that we're not allowed to fulfill our desires?

Unfortunately, I also see that the teachings and values are ingrained in our culture, whether we want to face it or not. Sex IS dirty in this society because from the beginning we have been influenced by Christian (mainly) teachings. There is no true religious freedom in this country; there never was. It is evident in our currency, our pledge of allegiance, and so many other things.

Even growing up I was under pressure of Christian teaching. I was not forced to go to Church, unless I was visiting my grandma. I went sometimes with friends for the social aspects of it, but I never believed. I always felt that my sexual urges were good, but I was always told by somebody that they were wrong.

Overall, I have issues with organized religions, but that's a different rant entirely. Suffice to say, that no one in this country is not affected in some way by the Church's views on sex.

 

[SlickTony]

I was raised as a Christian Scientist, and CS has so much warmed-over Gnosticism that anything enjoyed by the human body was viewed as rather icky and suspect. In order for the mind to triumph over pain, it was also necessary to give up pleasure. Sex was only another component.

You're damn right I believe religion interferes with sexual freedom, which is one of the reasons I'm looking forward with eagerness to going to the polls in November and helping to vote the present lot of rascals out of office.

Among other things, while I myself am past the danger of getting pregnant, I do have a daughter and a niece, and hope to someday have granddaughters and great-nieces. I don't want any of them, should they be raped or yield to the impulse to have impulse sex or their BC fails, to find themselves one Sunday morning scrambling from Eckards to Walgreens to CVS trying to get Plan B because some smarmy bluenose of a pharmacist won't give it to them on the grounds that it's against his personal belief system. (What's next? Anesthesiologists refusing to administer nitrous oxide, demerol and epidurals to women in labor because the Bible says women have to bring forth in pain?)

 

[SomethinSpecial]

Now THIS is a great thread, and a topic of much passion (no pun intended... or was there...) for me. As you can see, it took a lurker like me and caused him to write up his first post. This is a discussion I've had many tims with many different people, and they all kind of share one thing in common - at least when it comes to Christians - and that is that all of the pain, conflict, frustratration and hypocracy they are having to deal with is coming from the church, not the Church. That is - it is all stemming from the institution founded and run by man, not the institution of love founded and run by God.

I have taken the time on this specific topic. I have labored over the pags of the Bible, and of many Bible references written by some of the most knowledgable theologans of our time. I have even read books written by men with the intent of proving their puritanistic views on sex with Bible verse. Being Roman Catholic by birth myself, I did all this in a quest to learn the truth, and to be a moral, upstanding Christian in the face of my developing sexuality.

here's what I learned

If you take all the information about sexuality that is in the Bible... not "information" being interepreted and analyzed for you by someone else... all the Bible says is this (and yes, I'm interpreting and analyzing the Bible for you as well - the difference is that I'm relaying the words straight forward and keeping them as simple as they were written, with no opinion added): Sexuality is a gift from God. We as his children were given a different type of sexuality than any other creature on earth. God wants us to enjoy sex. As far as only having sex within the confines of marriage? Well, all the Bible says about that, essentially, is that sex should only be allowed within the confines of love, or else it is the same as any other kind of gluttony. The Bible suggests you wait until you are married to ensure yourself that you are not being misguided in to thinking you are truly in love when it is merely lust guiding you. Nowhere does it say, though, that sex outside marriage is a sin (unless you already ARE married). Nowhere does it say that sex within love between more than one person in your lifetime is a sin. What it all boils down to is this:

If you truly love your sexual partner, God wants you to enjoy sex.

Period. That's it - no other whistles, bells or man-created rules. All the pain any of you have ever felt regarding this from your churches came from the men who run it. Not God, not Jesus. There are entire psalms in the Bible dedicated to the experience that is a sexual relationship.

For me, this discovery has lead to an inner peace in my sex life that can only be described as miraculous. On a bit of a side note, this doesn't only apply to sex, but many, if not all, of the restrictive, hurtful rules imposed by the church are created by man for man.

This will be my last little soapbox speech. If you go through the Bible, and whittle down all the text in to JUST the words Jesus spoke you get only three different messages. That's it. Not a lengthy list of rules, no handbook required. and so I'll leave this post with those three things - and say God bless all of you.

• Love yourself - never do anything to you that you wouldn't do to someone you were madly in love with.
• Love your neighbor - never do anything to anyone, if you know them or if you don't, that you wouldn't do to yourself (who you treat the way you treat the one you are madly in love with).
• Love your God - never do anything to God's name or honor that you wouldn't do to you most cherished mentor.

 

[dollface007]

Well said, SomethinSpecial. Bravo.

 

[Cathleen]

Some great posts here, thanks.

I was raised as a Roman Catholic and my closest and favorite relative was a priest, my Uncle. He was quite high in the esteem of the church but he was first an enlightened man. I learned a great deal from him, and was able to discuss absolutely any topic. He would have agreed so much with all of you. I think for him his love of God could only be served thru the organization of the Roman Catholic Church, but he was truly a Man of God, not a man of religion.

Religion was created by man, not God. I find it very simple to separate the two. I do, on occasion, go to Mass, purely for the feeling of going thru the rituals, the familar prayers, place, etc. It is not where God is to me. God is far different from religion. The Bible, while I belive was Devinely Inspired, is not to be taken literally. It is a tale of lessons. I actually have a friend that truly believes that the 3 Wise Men arrived 12 days after the birth of Christ!! I try to show her on a map just how impossible it would have been but she believes on. Hey, its her right.

I've never had a problem with sex and religion. They just do not belong together to me. Religion places beliefs and judgements on mankind, Spirit does not. We are meant to enjoy sex, as well as many other wonders here on earth, I won't let a religon take that away from me.

I am so grateful that I have a faith, that I am spiritual, for I do find such great comfort and peace from that belief.

 

[midwestyankee]

Perhaps it was that I reached adolescence about the time that Vatican II was first being felt by the U.S. Perhaps it was just that during the 60's even the Catholic Church was doing what it could to seem relevant. I don't know for sure why, but I don't recall any lasting lessons that left me feeling much guilt about sex. Curiosity, yes; guilt, no.

I do recall a CCD teacher who claimed that one of the signs of success in his marriage was that he had had no need to masturbate since getting married. Of course, after class we all argued numerous reasons why that could be shown to be a failed marriage, but chalk that up to the arrogance of adolescence.

So perhaps I escaped relatively unscathed. Can't say the same for the wife, but that's another story for another thread - probably in another lifetime too.

 

[SomethinSpecial]

Religion was created by man, not God.

Perfect. Absolutely perfect. After all the time and energy I put in to learning what I have, that is the sentance that sums it all up. Thanks.

 

[Missingmeds]

As someone who's faith and spirituality and culture can not be seperated into three different things( Native American by birth and by choice), I, too, managed not to be taught that sex was dirty or to be hidden or to be used as a weapon against another person.

So therefore I totally enjoy it. As someone who has figured out that she is perfectly capable of loving more than one person at a time, it is a good way to be.

I do have friends of different judeo-christian beliefs that I watch go thru hell with the wrestling between their own natural drives and their religions.

Watched marriages go down the tubes and end in very ugly divorces because of one partner's religious beliefs.

Not for me.

 

[Evil Attorney]

I believe Judisim teaches their is a time and a place for sex.

Time - After you are married.
Place - Anywere you won't be disturbed.

 

[invioletsilence]

This is a topic that is of some interest to me. In my experience, conservative/fundamentalist religion can potentially be very damaging to one's sexuality and sense of self. While I believe that out there somewhere there is a god who is basically loving and good, I don't know to what extent, if any, he/she/it is involved in the daily lives of humans. What I can't understand is why a god who supposedly has human nature's best interests at heart would insist that healthy sexuality be repressed.

I've had a considerable amount of experience within conservative Christian churches (especially Baptist ones) and all around sexuality is not only feared, but reviled. My boyfriend and I have come to similar conclusions about the church. While I believe that sexuality is a very wonderful gift meant to be shared with someone you truly love, I cannot understand why so many Christian denominations treat the concept of sexuality and the human body as if they should be feared. One example would be the extreme uproar over the Janet Jackson Superbowl breast-baring incident. Now, I'm not a parent, but I can at least sympathize with parents who may not want their young children to see an exposed breast on television. However, certain members within the church I attend were very upset about the issue. Many Christians I knew went on to condemn her action, with the excuse that it was immoral and obscene. What I'd like to know is this: when did the human body become an object of fear? Why exactly is a breast so controversial?

I also think that strict Christian abstinence campaigns like 'True Love Waits' can be damaging to budding sexuality. Granted, I still regret experiencing sexual activity before I was ready and with a person I didn't really love, and I do advocate the wise and healthy use of sexuality. But me, like all the other fervent fundamentalist Christian youths, I signed one of the "No sex until marriage" pledges. Had I chosen not to sign, I would have been shunned or looked down upon by my peers. By signing and then subsequently "not waiting", I felt that I had let the cosmic force they call god down and that I'd never be able to "be whole" again. The church doesn't do a good job of catering to the needs of today's youth. Those young people who do choose not to wait until marriage inevitably feel separated and removed from not only their church-going peer groups but the god in whom they so fervently believed.

It's really no wonder that so many church goers have very deep issues about their sexuality- it's an issue the church seems to be deathly afraid of.

 

[white_mage_goddess]

I feel so blessed to have been raised athiest/agnostic. I had no sexual hangups whatsoever in regards to religion. I was taught that sex is a fun, good, wonderful thing between consenting adults.

When I became pagan later, I was so happy because pagansim is so beautiful in the way it sees sex as a pure and natural thing....

 

[SlickTony]

I missed the infamous Tit Seen Round the World, except in replay. My son said he saw it, and "was disturbed by it." Well, he is an Asperger kid, and sometimes tries on emotional reactions he doesn't necessarily feel to try to live up to what he thinks people's expectations are. I reminded him that he got most of his sustenance out of a similar container for over three years.

I think it is unrealistic to expect people to wait until they're married to have sex when people are getting married later and later.

 

[SlickTony]

I missed the infamous Tit Seen Round the World, except in replay. My son said he saw it, and "was disturbed by it." Well, he is an Asperger kid, and sometimes tries on emotional reactions he doesn't necessarily feel to try to live up to what he thinks people's expectations are. I reminded him that he got most of his sustenance out of a similar container for over three years.

I think it is unrealistic to expect people to wait until they're married to have sex when people are getting married later and later.

 

[curious2c]

Most of how one's sexuality is affected by religion is first and foremost up to them and how they view sex. The second portion of influence is the leader of the 'flock' and how they view such things.

I grew up with parents that were for the most part quite religious, to the tune of holy rollers inthe Assembly of God church. But, my parents did not force the dogma of sexuality down my throat. I was usually told to see for myself when I questioned certain aspects of sexuality. "Look it up in the bible, larn for yourself"

What I learned was in the Old Testament, a man could have more than one wife. That cheating happened even then. That the leaders of the church seemed to be wizards of sorts (Moses and the staff that once he threw it down, became a snake, then swallowed the staff/snakes of the other priests in front of the egyptain king, parting of the Red Sea and so on.) And that the bible tended to be quite...well...male dominated and women were...for the most part, chatel.(sp)

As I grew up though, my parents were careful to allow me to see things as they were, and how in our history, some of our family were from ancient Ireland and were probably pagan's or believer's in other types of relgion that Christian church would not like.

Looking around today though, one can see how much religion has influenced sexuality around us. You must or should be married to live together. A church wedding for many years was a requirement to 'prove' marriage. Justice of the peace weddings were frowned upon or looked upon as less than good. (I know from experience.)

In my life, living together with my wife for two years before getting married, caused some of my family to lower me in their estimation. Even though we got married by a justice of the Peace, there was still some...well, 'handling' of my wife and I when we would visit.

My wife, in her beliefs, had problems with sexuality and the bible/religion, refusing to try many things since it was wrong because some minister had preached against it so many times...to the point that had I been a bit more observant and less in love I may have re-thought many things.

I guess that what I am trying to say in a long winded way is that many sexual 'freedoms' have been limited or looked down upon by religion for many years. Some people can rise above the dogma, some can't.

It is too bad too since sex and love do go hand in hand, but are seperate. I have asked my very relgious sisters about some things related to sex and each time their answers have started out...well if someone loves their husband...and ended with, and as long as it isn't against God's will...

After reading the bible over several times I have to ask, can anyone know Gods will? He has changed it many times in the bible, and many ways too.