Rule Breaking Or Homophobia?

[none2_none2]

You need to choose what truly matters, else you marginalise every bit of progress we do make.

It's not Neocons/Republican's and the right who kick us down... We lost in Liberal California too ---- it is society in general that disapproves of homosexuality, and one reason they do so, is the in-your-face- demand for special/different treatment.

Rather than reading King's pithy quotes and pretending that each is an axiom of life and universal trvth - read Sun Tsu and Machiavelli. Learn how, when and where to fight.

but in the meantime go ahead and flame me... I dared to disagree with a mainstream lbgt opinion.

Don't worry, not everybody follows what is trendy or the mob mentality. Some of us actually think for ourselves.

My dad was one of those in-your-face kind of people, and he was 100% non-gay. One of those kinds that if he felt like farting, he would. It was part of being himself -100% of the time. That fuck-everybody-else kind of attitude if you didn't like his sh%#t that he subjected those around him to.

. For years I hated him for the way he treated me. Though he died last year, I made my peace with him years ago. I realized that he could be mean an cruel with everybody, I just got the brunt of it because I was in his household and an easy target. I loved him because he was my father, but that aside he wasn't someone that I would have liked or had a relationship with otherwise.

Here is an example of his behavior: He once had to go to court for getting into a heated shouting match with a woman. The court let him off with one of the conditions being that he had to do some social work. Though he was anti-religion, he choose some church. They were easy for him to pick on -- if the church people didn't do what he wanted when he wanted it. For example picking him up and take him places (since he was legally blind). I could give plenty more examples of his behavior over the years, but I don't have time to write a novel tonight...

I think my grandmother (on my mother's side) understood this kind of in-your-face behavior best. To her, those that need to agitate others all the time do it not in the struggle for freedom or self-expression, but rather mental illness.

Most of us learn years ago that in a civil society it is the smile that breaks a frown, a handshake that disarms a fist, and a whisper that breaks a scream. Some people just don't get it.

 

[Wolfman1982]

OMG it's kbate!!! *faints*

lol yeah it is kbate, my first real and awesome sparring partner with good and bad stuff mixed into it. But it is great seeing her around. Hey kbate, how are you ?

 

[takemyhands]

It's 'sexism' to me

Hello all, it's been so long since I posted but I want to put in my two cents on the debate. I agree with none2_none2 that this is an issue of 'sexism', not 'homophobia'. Why?

Reasons:
1) What none2_none2 said below made perfect sense to me.

Bottom line: If you want to take away my rights to love or be with someone of the same gender, then yes I will call it homophobia. I don't need a particular length of hair, a particular item of clothing, nor make-up to make me gay. If you have silly, stupid rules about how I look and they are gender based, then it is simply sexism. In my case, I demand the right to wear my hair as I choose, but to call it homophobia would be a gross misuse of the term.

2) Ceara Sturgis is the school's soccer goalie and band trumpet player. If they were homophobic, I am sure that they would have found ways to deterred her from being one of the central figures in the school activities. As stated from the article, "the whole school knows that she is gay because she's not shy about it..." so this tells me that they are not homophobic about her sexual orientation.

3) The school and Principal Greer stated that they would not allow her to appear in a tux within the yearbook, but not in any other form of clothing. Who says that her only option is a dress?

4) The town pride themselves on their quiet way of life; therefore, a yearbook picture of a girl in a tux is like screaming fire in a crowded library. It’ll be GLARINGLY obvious to the young and old in the town that social gender identifications like "men in tuxedos, women in dresses" or "blue for baby boys, pink for baby girls" are not what it used to be anymore.

If the ACLU bring this case to court and misidentified the cause for discrimination, then they could possibly loose the case and also cause some embarrassment to our GLBT name. That is why I also believe that, like nose2_nose2, we cannot continuous interchange 'sexism' and 'homophobic'. Nor, can we instantly say 'homophobic' whenever a situation involves a fellow GLBT.

 

[Recidiva]

You need to choose what truly matters, else you marginalise every bit of progress we do make.

It's not Neocons/Republican's and the right who kick us down... We lost in Liberal California too ---- it is society in general that disapproves of homosexuality, and one reason they do so, is the in-your-face- demand for special/different treatment.

Rather than reading King's pithy quotes and pretending that each is an axiom of life and universal trvth - read Sun Tsu and Machiavelli. Learn how, when and where to fight.

but in the meantime go ahead and flame me... I dared to disagree with a mainstream lbgt opinion.

This isn't about special treatment. It's about getting the SAME treatment.

There's zero illegality to choosing a tux. There's no law regarding clothing choices.

It's the same with gay marriage. You don't want to marry someone gay? Don't marry someone gay. However, don't stop someone else from choosing their gender identity and their mate.

In this case, it's the girl's prom, not the principal's prom. It's her picture, it's her experience. Does she really want to remember it as "the day they forced me into a dress" or the day she got to have fun with her friends. Let her choose her gender identity and her clothing. Everyone else gets to do so. If it's different and other people disapprove, too damn bad. They got to choose their own clothing at their own prom and they could make their own statements regarding identity then.

This is definitely worth fighting for.

Sun Tzu and Machiavelli would also not recommend compromising in favor of exhaustion and poor reasoning.

 

[kbate]

This isn't about special treatment. It's about getting the SAME treatment.

There's zero illegality to choosing a tux. There's no law regarding clothing choices.

It's the same with gay marriage. You don't want to marry someone gay? Don't marry someone gay. However, don't stop someone else from choosing their gender identity and their mate.

In this case, it's the girl's prom, not the principal's prom. It's her picture, it's her experience. Does she really want to remember it as "the day they forced me into a dress" or the day she got to have fun with her friends. Let her choose her gender identity and her clothing. Everyone else gets to do so. If it's different and other people disapprove, too damn bad. They got to choose their own clothing at their own prom and they could make their own statements regarding identity then.

This is definitely worth fighting for.

Sun Tzu and Machiavelli would also not recommend compromising in favor of exhaustion and poor reasoning.

There are laws regarding clothing choices. Will you fight as hard for individual choice when a Wiccan decides to attend her prom naked - to celebrate her religion? Or when members of another group decide to wear "Death to America" t-shirts for their prom? How about when homosexual men choose to dance in nothing but leather G-strings for their highschool prom?

This is not a Homosexual matter. It is a matter of personal choice against social custom. Attempting to turn it into a Homosexual issue simply because the woman in question is lesbian is disingenuous and serves nobody.

If all rules are now to be subject to individual whimsy - where does it end? Why have a society when any person who wishes to be different - can force society to change? Anarchy, but only anarchy that feels good and fits a demographic currently in vogue with the ruling political party? Rigid community rules for the rest of life?

 

[Safe_Bet]

There are laws regarding clothing choices.

EXACTLY! In this case there are no rules or laws being broken so she should be allowed to dress as she wants. The only thing preventing that is some asshat pricipal's "convictions".

Will you fight as hard for individual choice when a Wiccan decides to attend her prom naked - to celebrate her religion? Or when members of another group decide to wear "Death to America" t-shirts for their prom? How about when homosexual men choose to dance in nothing but leather G-strings for their highschool prom?

Yup. As long as they aren't breaking any laws (which have been found to be Constitutional and not just the desires of a bunch of neocon fundies.)

There are laws regarding clothing choices. Will you fight as hard for individual choice when a Wiccan decides to attend her prom naked - to celebrate her religion? Or when members of another group decide to wear "Death to America" t-shirts for their prom? How about when homosexual men choose to dance in nothing but leather G-strings for their highschool prom?

This is not a Homosexual matter. It is a matter of personal choice against social custom. Attempting to turn it into a Homosexual issue simply because the woman in question is lesbian is disingenuous and serves nobody.

If all rules are now to be subject to individual whimsy - where does it end? Why have a society when any person who wishes to be different - can force society to change? Anarchy, but only anarchy that feels good and fits a demographic currently in vogue with the ruling political party? Rigid community rules for the rest of life?

If all rules are now to be subject to individual whimsy - where does it end? Why have a society when any person who wishes to be different - can force society to change? Anarchy, but only anarchy that feels good and fits a demographic currently in vogue with the ruling political party? Rigid community rules for the rest of life?

It ends at a place called "freedom". You know... that place with those "certain unalienable rights" thingies that Tommy Jefferson wrote about... life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

 

[kbate]

EXACTLY! In this case there are no rules or laws being broken so she should be allowed to dress as she wants. The only thing preventing that is some asshat pricipal's "convictions".

Yup. As long as they aren't breaking any laws (which have been found to be Constitutional and not just the desires of a bunch of neocon fundies.)


It ends at a place called "freedom". You know... that place with those "certain unalienable rights" thingies that Tommy Jefferson wrote about... life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Ah, so you know the principal is a Neocon? I did not see his political affiliation in the article. He might just be an Authoritarian Democrat, or a Mao Communist bent on destroying individuality - but as the student in question happens to be queer, you assume he represents the Religious Right?

So then, it is your position that Social Mores have no place in a free society.

But you are for the government's plan to force every single person to have Health Insurance?

 

[Recidiva]

There are laws regarding clothing choices. Will you fight as hard for individual choice when a Wiccan decides to attend her prom naked - to celebrate her religion? Or when members of another group decide to wear "Death to America" t-shirts for their prom? How about when homosexual men choose to dance in nothing but leather G-strings for their highschool prom?

This is not a Homosexual matter. It is a matter of personal choice against social custom. Attempting to turn it into a Homosexual issue simply because the woman in question is lesbian is disingenuous and serves nobody.

If all rules are now to be subject to individual whimsy - where does it end? Why have a society when any person who wishes to be different - can force society to change? Anarchy, but only anarchy that feels good and fits a demographic currently in vogue with the ruling political party? Rigid community rules for the rest of life?

The naked thing is a law.

Tux is acceptable prom wear. It being on a girl who wears men's clothes all day is acceptable. Asking her to change her identity entirely for one day is about the same as asking a straight guy to wear a dress from her point of view.

I don't really buy the slippery slope "civilization is going to crumble into Atlantis" tack here either.
Let's deal with the situation as it is.

As it is, it's about wearing what she wore every day in high school to her prom. If she was allowed to wear men's clothes every day in high school, she can wear them to her prom. They're formal wear. This is not a prank or a dig at authority. This is a kid who identifies herself with male symbols every day of her life, identifying herself with male symbols for another day in her life.

 

[BiBunny]

I think in the realm of shit to jump up and down and argue about, this is very low on the totem pole. If you pitch a fit about every little thing, then people eventually stop listening to you altogether. There's something to be said for picking one's battles.

What does this girl being a lesbian have to do with anything, anyway? Sounds like the person writing the article just wanted to stir some shit.

 

[sugaredwalls]

It's sad to see so many who want to be enablers of those who want to trample gay rights or silence gay voices...even if it's something small like a girl wanting to wear a tux in her yearbook photo. She's gay, that's her identity and the school wants to take that away from her by forcing her to be someone she is not in her yearbook photo. In hindsight, maybe trivial to others but not to her.

I also find it amusing to want to give neoconservative fundamentalist Christians a pass....a pass to pass laws against you such as:

allowing health care workers to deny you care because you are gay
preventing a lesbian woman from obtaining sperm because she is gay
not allowing a couple to adopt, because they are gay
preventing someone from teaching in a public school because they are gay
from housing because they are gay
from employment because they are gay
from marriage because they are gay.

Safe_Bet is right, they have been no friend to LGBT's, more like enemy combatants. Never underestimate those bigoted assholes because they will do away with your rights any chance and opportunity they get, even something like a yearbook photo. They have no shame.

So fuck them and their "hate the sin, love the sinner" bullshit attitudes towards homosexuality. Enough is enough.

 

[kbate]

The naked thing is a law.

Tux is acceptable prom wear. It being on a girl who wears men's clothes all day is acceptable. Asking her to change her identity entirely for one day is about the same as asking a straight guy to wear a dress from her point of view.

I don't really buy the slippery slope "civilization is going to crumble into Atlantis" tack here either.
Let's deal with the situation as it is.

As it is, it's about wearing what she wore every day in high school to her prom. If she was allowed to wear men's clothes every day in high school, she can wear them to her prom. They're formal wear. This is not a prank or a dig at authority. This is a kid who identifies herself with male symbols every day of her life, identifying herself with male symbols for another day in her life.

Irrelevant point about "naked being law" - laws which trample on the religious or civil rights of any group - are routinely overturned. Only, the ACLU is unlikely to fight for a Gaea Worshipper - they simply are not politically powerful or visible enough.

I do not buy the argument that wearing a dress for a picture - is going to emotionally scar a person for the remainder of a lifetime. That this case even became newsworthy - indicates that quite likely the entire situation was set up in order to bring about the ACLU case, rather than to get a girl into the Prom with a tuxedo.

The OP article does not even state that she identifies as "male", it states that she is gay, athletic, not feminine. I am queer, athletic, and wear boyish clothing at times but remain quite feminine. Perhaps the difference is that I am willing to bend when the matter is not crucial? Or perhaps I use other means? Perhaps I do not like using courts and law to club people into doing my will?

As for slippery slopes - read the post above, claiming that the right wishes to purge gays of all rights....

***

and please, sugaredwalls -

Point out where I want to give anyone any power over anyone? Enable anyone? You misread me and my posts entirely. I am not religious, I am not of the "right" and I certainly would prefer to see this girl be permitted to go to her Prom in any clothing of choice. You in your convictions, have missed the entire point, that not every battle needs be fought, and sometimes the fighting itself is the greater harm to our community.

The girl could as simply have arrived at the PROM, with a group of her friends, her parents, her friend's parents and other supporters (both straight and gay), wearing her clothing of choice, and let the principal then deny her (and possibly much of the senior class) access, or see reason and allow admittance. Shame and peer pressure work on adults of conviction as well as on children. Change one person's attitude and you can change a town, go to court and fight - and no matter the outcome, freedom loses, as nobody changes, they only obey orders.

 

[Recidiva]

Irrelevant point about "naked being law" - laws which trample on the religious or civil rights of any group - are routinely overturned. Only, the ACLU is unlikely to fight for a Gaea Worshipper - they simply are not politically powerful or visible enough.

I do not buy the argument that wearing a dress for a picture - is going to emotionally scar a person for the remainder of a lifetime. That this case even became newsworthy - indicates that quite likely the entire situation was set up in order to bring about the ACLU case, rather than to get a girl into the Prom with a tuxedo.

The OP article does not even state that she identifies as "male", it states that she is gay, athletic, not feminine. I am queer, athletic, and wear boyish clothing at times but remain quite feminine. Perhaps the difference is that I am willing to bend when the matter is not crucial? Or perhaps I use other means? Perhaps I do not like using courts and law to club people into doing my will?

I think it's more likely you will bend when it's not important to you, and you have zero compassion for someone else who feels differently than you do. Since kbate has dismissed the subject as valid, conversation is over and any discussion is threatening the fabric of society.

You don't get to decide what someone else's identity is. If I can imagine that it's a shock to be told you can't wear the formalwear you choose, I get to imagine what I'd do if someone told me that. I don't really care that kbate has been making acceptable compromises when she so chooses. If it's not something I'm willing to compromise, then that's my choice.

And that's why this is her choice. If you think wearing a dress when you don't want to wear a dress isn't that big of a deal, then you're missing a large chunk of imagination and experience regarding people who express themselves through their appearance.

She gets to fight because she wants to fight, because it's important to her.

I don't think you've been missing any opportunities to assert your identity. Nor do I think you've compromised terribly much. You're entirely outspoken when it suits you and you're hardly the retiring sort. It's just that you don't much care about the subject, therefore other people shouldn't.

This isn't about logic, this is about you not really giving a damn and thinking nobody else should.

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

What I don't understand is why we are discussing the girl's prom when the initial story was about the fact that she wants her picture in the yearbook wearing a tuxedo and the school is basically saying "no can do".

As for the initial question I see this is as a case of sexism, not homophobia. Like none2_none2 said

sexism -- a phobia against non-traditional gender roles.

They don't have an issue with her being gay...otherwise she wouldn't be as active in so many school related things (sports...etc...) They do have an issue with her trying to appear in a way that suggests she sees herself as *manly*. Not homophobia, sexism.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents...your mileage may vary.

 

[Recidiva]

What I don't understand is why we are discussing the girl's prom when the initial story was about the fact that she wants her picture in the yearbook wearing a tuxedo and the school is basically saying "no can do".

As for the initial question I see this is as a case of sexism, not homophobia. Like none2_none said They don't have an issue with her being gay...otherwise she wouldn't be as active in so many school related things (sports...etc...) They do have an issue with her trying to appear in a way that suggests she sees herself as *manly*. Not homophobia, sexism.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents...your mileage may vary.

Meh. Am I going to have to go back and edit now? No! No, I say, let my stupidity stand!

Core issue remains basically unchanged except now there's more Luna, making it awesomer.

 

[Recidiva]

Note though:

sexism -- a phobia against non-traditional gender roles.

Homosexuality is a non-traditional gender role. This definition of sexism includes homosexuality as part of the non-tradition.

So it'd be hard to pick out exactly which part of the non-tradition was being addressed.

I also associate sexism with just not liking a gender, regardless of it's traditionalness. But that doesn't really apply here overtly. As long as the girl's in a dress.

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

Meh. Am I going to have to go back and edit now? No! No, I say, let my stupidity stand!

Core issue remains basically unchanged except now there's more Luna, making it awesomer.

Of course you aren't gonna edit. You are Reci!! (and I make things awesomer?? Who knew??)

Also just read your side note: If one wanted to look at homosexuality in that light then one could still claim homophobia and be correct. I don't see it that way, though. She is a good student who seems to be at ease with, and mostly liked by, the school and general populace. The issue isn't her sexuality, then. It is a case of what she is choosing to wear ie a tuxedo to express how she sees herself. This then takes it from the realm of homophobia and places it firmly in the realm of sexism. Still not an appropriate response (from the school) but kind of understandable, the whole way around. By that I mean the school board saying "Our yearbook is going to appear THIS way" and the female in question saying "BUT it's my picture..."

 

[Recidiva]

Of course you aren't gonna edit. You are Reci!! (and I make things awesomer?? Who knew??)

Also just read your side note: If one wanted to look at homosexuality in that light then one could still claim homophobia and be correct. I don't see it that way, though. She is a good student who seems to be at ease with, and mostly liked by, the school and general populace. The issue isn't her sexuality, then. It is a case of what she is choosing to wear ie a tuxedo to express how she sees herself. This then takes it from the realm of homophobia and places it firmly in the realm of sexism. Still not an appropriate response (from the school) but kind of understandable, the whole way around. By that I mean the school board saying "Our yearbook is going to appear THIS way" and the female in question saying "BUT it's my picture..."

Yeah, I said earlier it's manifesting as sexism (external definition of gender roles) without having to be homophobic. But it doesn't EXCLUDE homophobia as a motivation.

It's definitely something I'd fight for myself or my kids. There's zero illegality or immorality. In my opinion it's control freaky on the part of the administration.

The kid's picture is the kid's picture.

Spoken as someone who once wore a Star Trek insignia in a school picture despite my mother's protestations.

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

I have battled over my right to love who I want, when I want. I have fought for the right to choose *other* as an ethnic background. I guess I think that each person picks their battles. I do not think that I would fight for a chance to wear something different than everyone else but that is just me. I do understand the motivation, though.

I guess my point was an *ism* or *phobic* response ultimately decides what one is willing to battle over. Me, I would battle for my children if they needed/wanted me to, but I wouldn't see it as a big deal for myself.

ETA:

Since we aren't there, we don't know the whole story, either. There may be far more (or far less) to the story than what is told. Ultimately, everyone is going to see and respond to different aspects of it.

 

[Etoile]

I got my senior pictures done somewhere else. Wore what I wanted. No muss, no fuss. *shrugs*

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

I got my senior pictures done somewhere else. Wore what I wanted. No muss, no fuss. *shrugs*

So did she...but they wouldn't accept her picture that she sent in for publication in the yearbook. That's the issue.

 

[Recidiva]

I have battled over my right to love who I want, when I want. I have fought for the right to choose *other* as an ethnic background. I guess I think that each person picks their battles. I do not think that I would fight for a chance to wear something different than everyone else but that is just me. I do understand the motivation, though.

I guess my point was an *ism* or *phobic* response ultimately decides what one is willing to battle over. Me, I would battle for my children if they needed/wanted me to, but I wouldn't see it as a big deal for myself.

Okay. Well, from my point of view, me dressing up to look like someone else from a catalog just makes me get the serious fraud oogies. I'm not that person, I don't want to be that person.

Hell, I wanted to be a Romulan, not a model.

But that's the point. Whether you're fighting for your right to be a nerd or gay or whatever, it has to do with the internal perception of self of the individual.

Not everyone looks at themselves in a Casual Corner gown and thinks "Oooh, I look pretty." They want to rip off the flowers and not be a fraud. That's me anyway. I can imagine this girl feeling the same exact way. "That's not me. I want to be me."

There are those that want to look like everyone else, there are those that either can't or don't want to, and don't aspire to anybody's ideal of them, or what someone else thinks they should look like.

You can tell me being a nerd at the prom is...wrong. Why? Really, why? I'm a nerd every single day and nobody minded until now, you guys are just tolerating me? I don't really care. I might just barely be tolerating them. Let's stay civil and let me wear what I want and I won't have to...yeah, I'm going there...Vulcan neck pinch someone.

 

[Etoile]

http://www.velvetparkmedia.com/blogs/ceara-sturgis-talks-about-being-out-teen
There's a video here from a local news channel, and quite frankly I'm shocked by the "OMG GAYS" nature of the story. I guess people just aren't as familiar with it in Mississippi.

 

[kbate]

.....

 

[Recidiva]

You've really taken a strange twist of logic with this post. That is LT's type of thinking.

Well, I'm a strange person. The rest gets you a rolley eye.

 

[Wolfman1982]

can some of us not just agree, that certain things are wrong. And they need to be changed ? Cause perhaps I am just laid back, but I am more like this "so she wants to have a tuxedo on ?, Well let her have it on !". But then again I am just a nobody, so I have no power of that.