Russian Sub

[Firesprite]

I've been following the news too on the sub, and from where I'm standing, If I were one of the blokes stuck down there, I wouldn't give a shit who got me out so long as I got out alive.

I understand about the cold war and being independant, not willing to ask for help, not knowing if the rescue things will match up with the sub things, and the bad weather and all that other stuff..

what I'd be a bit worried about is what the guys that are stuck are doing (if they are still alive that is) I mean.. their major problem is oxygen. I think that if I knew I was gonna die cos there are so many people using up the air, the first thing I would go for are the scuba tanks. I presume that there would be scuba tanks on board.. after all who knows when you have to nip outside to untangle an idiot fishermans net or something? I should imagine if the air got bad enough (and I'm guessing it'd be pretty damn bad) the next thing I'd be looking for is a gun/harpoon/handy piece of rope.. after all.. if there are less people breathing then the air is gonna last longer. Maybe one of the docs/medics in our midst can enlighten me on this, but oxygen deprivation could cause people to think/do some prety loopy things.. killing someone could seem pretty damn sensible in those conditions. Sure they are probably trained in life/death scenarios, but traing can only go so far.. at some point, someone will crack.
From the reports I have read they seem to think that everyone is lying down to conserve the oxygen. That may be... but I bet that there is some serious shit going on down there.

One other thing.. more of a question really.. if the rescue attempt works and they get the hatch thing sorted, they open the door and all this crap air comes rushing in.. the dudes on both sides are gonna be instant KO.. (close enough anyway) what'll they do, roll in a few more air bottles and ask

"Ok boys, whos first?"

 

[Bliss]

Sweet Lil Beaver to the Rescue!

Well, what I heard was that the British have rescue hatches compatiable with the Russians, and that's why they didn't ask for our help.

Those poor young guys stuck at the bottom of the sea aren't anything but victims of a tragic accident, and the cold war, and I'm sure their families could do without all the political science garbage and just want their "babies" back.
They certainly don't deserve to die of oxygen starvation because our Presidents "intervene too much".

The next time I need roadside assistance I'll try to remember to call Bonnie instead of 911.


2¢, that's all.

 

[Expertise]

Hey Bush

The pod I was talking about (maybe the same one you were) was actually part of the pressure hull of one of there smaller boats so decompression would not have been an issue.

Wizard a question...if you were in a sub on the bottom and running out of O2 and a Russian or CIS DSRV was your only way out would you want them to come get you.

Although I can understand your sentiments about helping and getting shit on for it i'll email you an old article to that effect.

 

[Slut_boy]

And now .... anyone know if they are saved *Slut_boy waves his hands frantically*

 

[Bliss]

According to the latest news, Putin called Clinton sometime yesterday, they didn't elaborate much there; Yesterday's rescue attempts also failed... for more details go to the full coverage section of http://dailynews.yahoo.com

 

[Slut_boy]

Thanks Payne. I think that this is all so sad. I must say that I do find it a little odd that even in times of dire human crisis, people think less of their alliance to human kind than they do of nationality. People are strange.

 

[Guest]

more info

I just thought I'd butt in hear to say that http://www.janes.com has got a lot of info on what was going on in the last few days as well as very comprehensive stuff on the sub, rescue vehicles and all the other associated paraphinalia. They've made the connected articles freely available (normally you'd have to pay) so that's a good place to start to answer pretty much all the questions you might have on procedure etc.
For more up to date stuff I've found the best souce is http://www.bbc.co.uk/news which updates very regularly, and their international stuff is very comprehensive, especially this story, assuming you don't mind a British bent on the presentation.
Hope that helps anyone interested.

Maestro

 

[Bonnie Wee Lassie]

Thank you Payne and wizard for your compliments. And sorry Wizard if things I said were alittle harsh but I was upset. Hope you understand.

Bonnie

 

[Wizard]

Bonnie, hey it is all cool , I enjoyed the thread and thought it was good we all see thing a bit diffrent and I like to hear others views......Thanks for joining in....It is all good...

 

[funny_guy]

Things are looking grimmer. Russian officials are supposed to announce tomorrow (friday) that they have run out of air. Then they have to start trying to save the reactors, to not damage the fisheries. Too bad.

 

[Morgoth]

I am Russian in origin so I really feel for those guys down there. But don't get me wrong, I am still an American patriot. News is that Friday they run out of air and asphyxiate and the battleship for the rescue mission arrives on Saturday. Talk about a bummer. What if one of those sailors is like a really distant cousin. This is really screwed. Let me tell you what happened. The Americans make movies and books with Russians as bad guys. The Russians read the books and see the movies and get pissed. Then, even if they are all about to be exterminated, they don't ask for help because of the intolerable anger between governments. Imagine Germany and France. Now multiply it somewhere around 500,000,000 times. You get Russia and America. Personally, I am really pissed at both fucking governments. I mean, Communism is over, they are now a democracy. And instead of helping them out, we ridicule them. The conditions in Russia are just plain horrible.
My grandmother(who is still alive and lives there) gets $50 a month and has to support a full family. Somehow she manages to survive, Although she has Diabetes, liver cancer, skin cancer, stomach cancer, and lung cancer. I called a few days ago and they said she was in the hospital taking her treatment. I know you all probably want me to just shut the fuck up and quit being sentimental but I just can't help feeling angry at some of these movie producers and authors and even everyday people who grew up thinking that Russia is evil and must be destroyed. A few days ago, I walked by a woman who was talking to her children and she just says," Stupid Russians, we should just nuke the whole place, kill em' all off. Who needs em' anyway?". When I heard that, I just felt like half of the Americans are stupid bitches. It's just so exasperating.
Anyway, now I am going to shut up. You can all cuss at me and tell me that I am a Russian spy, but I feel so sad and mad now.

 

[Weird Harold]

A few days ago, I walked by a woman who was talking to her children and she just says," Stupid Russians, we should just nuke the whole place, kill em' all off. Who needs em' anyway?". When I heard that, I just felt like half of the Americans are stupid bitches. It's just so exasperating.
Anyway, now I am going to shut up. You can all cuss at me and tell me that I am a Russian spy, but I feel so sad and mad now.

I spent 21 years in the USAF, looking over the barbed wire at the "Red Menace." (figuratively speaking) I have nothing but respect for their military, and sympathy for the the peole impverished by their former government.

Is it only me, or was the change in the history chaneel's schedule to air their "suicide missions" episode on undersea rescue tacky? Especially since it details all of the successful rescues made by the USN's Deep Sea Rescue Unit. The episode totally ignores other nations' deep sea resue capabilities.

I am certain that the US Navy does have the capability to rescue people from a mere 110 meters, but so do other nations. I don't know whether our government would ask for assistance before giving our own rescue capability a chance to do their job or not, but I can understand the national pride that would dictate a "thanks but we have deep sea rescue units of our own."

I just felt it was insensitive for the history channel to air a program that basically says "the US Navy is the only ones who can save those poor Russian sailors."

 

[Expertise]

It is Friday morning as I write this and the end, barring a miracle, is probably near for those men. The Russians rescue unit apparently made contact with Kursk during the night and attached themselves to the hatch but were unable to make entry. I feel for the frustration and sadness of those men as well as the submariners on board and there family and loved ones on shore.

Even though thier purpose was a dark one carrying weapons that may have been meant for my country or yours they were merely doing a job that the madness of our world has made necessary. Many of them doing a job that they were drafted to do. A job shared by thier "brothers" in the US, British and French navies. A duty to their country which has cost them everything.

I read this in a book last night and it made me cry. Although it is a portion of the US Navy hymn I am certain that those that wear the uniform of that service would not take offence to me using it for those one hundred and eighteen souls on the Kursk.

"Lord God, our power ever more, whose arm doth reach the ocean floor.

Divine with men beneath the sea; traverse the depths protectively.

Hear us when we pray, and keep them safe from peril in the deep.

Lord, guard and guide the men who man the submarines that guard our land.

Be with them always, night and day, in quiet depths and roaring spray.

Oh hear us when we cry to Thee, for those in peril on the sea."

-From the United States Navy Hymn

Good luck and God speed to the men of the Kursk

 

[Slut_boy]

Wow, Expertise. That is pretty moving stuff. Thanks for sharing it with us. Like you, I find this whole crisis so fucking sad. It is even more sad when you think how easily avoided it ought to have been. How unnecessary it was.

 

[Expertise]

The job was a ncessary one SB, that is unfortunate, but true.

What would truly be sad is if we find out that the Brits or the Americans could have saved or helped to save those men if they had been allowed to assist. And that Russian pride and or nationalism prevented these men from being returned to their families.

If that proves to be the case, that it was an effort to "save face" or maintain security (it is extremely unlikely that the Yanks and Brits would have learned any more than they already know about these boats) that would double the tragedy of this whole event.

 

[Bliss]

Same old Cold War

The following is part of article about Putin heading home after announcing that "the sailors never had a chance" of surviving:

OSLO (Reuters) - A Norwegian seismic institute said on Friday that it recorded two explosions last Saturday where a stricken Russian submarine sank off north Russia, the biggest as strong as one or two tons of TNT.

The recordings backed theories of explosions aboard the Kursk submarine, lying on the bottom of the Barents Sea with its 118 crew. Russia kept up rescue efforts on Friday amid fading hopes of finding survivors. "The first explosion we recorded was probably the equivalent of less than 100 kg (220 lbs.) of TNT, the second one or two tons," Frode Ringdal, scientific director of the Norwegian Seismic
Array (NORSAR), told Reuters. Other Norwegian officials said the data matched theories of a blast aboard the nuclear-powered vessel, perhaps in a torpedo that may have triggered another, bigger explosion.

They doubted that either of the jolts could mark a collision between two submarines or the thud of the submarine hitting the soft, muddy seabed at a depth of 354 feet.

NORSAR, which specializes in geophysics and seismology, said the stronger explosion measured 3.5 on the open-ended Richter scale, the smaller one 1.5 -- the equivalent of tiny earthquakes.
____________________________________________

If these guys really survived these blasts and were tapping out SOS, I'd say that running out of oxygen was only one of their many worries.

 

[Wizard]

I must say this bothers me......I have started to make a post 3 times now and not posted it and cleared the fields but here it is......I just don't get it I feel for those guys but dam has everone gone soft? This is just not our problem.....Why do we always have to get into things and help out .......when we do everone claimes we are sticking or nose in where it don't belong....when we don't they want to know why we didn't help.......When did the US become big brother to all the world....we helped in the gulf war and got stuck with he bill as we normally do....Yes I do recall the cold war very well and I just think it is there problem .....I wouldn't mind helping if we didn't have our own problems right here at home......lets take care of them then we can waste millons of dollars on a "rescue mission"


These folks offer to defend there country they know the risk....so..

Expertise If I was down there I would be scared and wish someone WOULD help but I also understand that it is not a perfect world we live in, and the US and Russian have never been best friends.....If you sign into the service then you know the risk.

Morgth.........I feel for your family I know there are good Russian folks but all I'm saying is that we"" The US are not babysiters for everyone else..........Some of my distance relitives are from Italy and live in villages that don't even have a phone......

I know this will get things going again and just had to say that......

 

[Bliss]

Well, Wizard, while I can understand your point of view, the US is not involved yet, and as bad off as the situation is turning out to be, there won't be any point to our getting involved and also there are a lot of readers (members, lurkers, whatever) here who aren't American so it's not really an "us vs. them" situation.

I feel for anyone with a tough job, whatever their nationality or gender. I certainly don't think just because you sign up to be a sailor, soldier, police officer, or fireman that you deserve whatever fate dishes out and that attitude damn sure doesn't comfort survivors.

Besides, lots of Americans have eastern Eurpean ancestry, family or friends, flag waving is a non issue here.
I'm sorry, but I don't equate compassion for my fellow humans as being "soft".

Just my 2¢. Agree to disagree.

 

[April]

Wizard, I agree with you as far as armed intervention goes. Butting into other countries conflicts seems to be our governments pastime, and playing with our service members lives doesn't concern them.

However, in a case such as the Russian sub, I think it is a matter of simple human compassion to try to help others. I would never forgive myself if there were something I could do to help, and didn't.

You mention signing up for the military. I saw a news report on this tonight, and the report said that the Russian military is approximately 1.2 million conscripted soldiers. This means drafted. There was no mention if the Navy is included in this figure. I suppose it shouldn't matter if they signed up or were drafted, it's still a horrible fate. But I feel even worse that they might have been drafted into dying on the ocean floor for no real purpose.

 

[Morgoth]

I got a call from my grandma and she says they were drafted all right. Also, there are NO nuclear weapons or any other types of weapons abord the sub. Except the standard torpedo. The problem was, the government decided to save some money and not give the sub extra diesel fuel. Then the nulear reactors shut down and the sub sunk.

 

[Guest]

Right, just a quick note before I do another post and get into a rant...
"There are no nuclear weapons".
I very much doubt it. The Russian government has said their are no nukes aboard. That doesn't mean they're telling the truth. And bearing in mind that that would mean this was the first time the Kursk had left port since it was commissioned in 1994 without them, I don't believe it. (www.belona.no) Given the effectiveness of US AEGIS warships the sub would be ineffective at taking out American carrier groups without nukes. There's no reason to ever send it out without them.

And on the topic of conscripted soldiers. Yes, the Russian navy does conscript sailors, and yes, submariners. However, the Kursk was one of their most advanced ships, and did get preferential treatment. So less members of the crew than normal were conscripts. But some of them still were, AFAIK.

MM

 

[Guest]

And now for the rant:

Wizard you piece of shit, I'm ashamed to be the same spiecies as you. And that, to me, is the point. These are people, and that to me is the be-all and end-all of it. They need our help (or rather did. They're almost certainly dead by now, but you know what I mean.)
America, in my opinion, has an obligation as the richest country on the planet to try and look after those less fortunate. As far as I'm concerned, that's so obvious, it beggars belief that someone might dispute it. We should help our fellow man in anyway we can. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one." If you're saving lives, then money, and lives to a degree should be immaterial. I'm someone who believes that if you're given a gun and told to shoot yourself or 2 others will die, you should pull the trigger. And I hope that if I was in that sort of situation I'd do it.
The fact that national pride comes into this at all ashames me. I would just like to see people go out there and try to save lives for once rather than looking out for their own backs and tax dollars, as if an extra 10 cents for everyone in America is worth a single Russian life.
I feel sick.

MM

 

[funny_guy]

Ok, so even if the Russians had accepted our help, it still would've taken longer than it took England to get a sub over there to help out. So we didn't go over there. We didn't get our hands durty in the mess. We offered our help (as did many other countries, I'm sure) and didn't get a response. Its not like we were trying to police the country or something. We just want to help out our fellow humans. But it doesn't help that we are on the oppisite side of the globe. I mean, what could we have done, that the Nowegans or Russians or British couldn't do? I agree with you Wiz, but also disagree. But I definatly respect your opinion, and think you make some good points. I also agree with you, MM, but not totally. Whatever. Its just too bad that it had to happen. I hope everyone agrees to that.

 

[Carl East]

By reading the posts here I can tell that this is an explosive topic, (no pun intended) in that there will be disagreements from most people. Personally, I feel that if we all took Wizard's stance, we'd end up not helping anyone, but on the the other hand. If we all took MM's view point, then we would probably get over involved in other people's business.

I can't help thinking there for, that there's got to be a balance between the two. The solution to this sort of catastrophe, in my humble opinion, would be to have a sort of international rescue agency designed around just this sort of event.

At least then, everybody would see it as their job, and nobody would think it was interference, and of course it would be funded by the world.

Carl.

 

[Wizard]

I see Maniacal Maestro is like the others that don't have the balls to sign there normal nickname to there post......I however have stated my postion on this matter many don't like it but I still posted under my correct username knowing I would hear about what I have said.
I can listen to others, and see why they feel the way they do.My is just and opion and you don't have to do as I say you to are aloud to disagree but dam have the ball to post in under your correct name.

All I can add to this that I haven't said is there is only so long you can help everyone.

Thank you for you input never the less.........