School Shootings: My Latest Theory

[Laurel]

On previous threads, I've put a lot of the responsibility for these shootings on the parents. And I still think they bear a certain responsibility. They're the legal guardians after all.

However, while doing my daily walk on the beach, I remembered a radio talk show from a few years back. The guest was the father of a boy who'd committed suicide. The boy, an overweight prepubescent, was teased, ridiculed, and beaten by his classmates every single day. The father went to the school administration several times regarding the bullying, and the admin scoffed at him - "boys will be boys" - and made no attempt to stop what was happening. The boy eventually became so despondent that he took his own life.

Imagine a workplace where the employees are permitted to beat, torment, and ridicule each other without repercussions. If a grown man is assaulted by other grown men, his assailants are arrested and put in jail. If someone at your workplace were constantly calling you names and ridiculing you, that person would be fired. If it were the owner or a manager, you could sue and win.

Why do we allow our children to do things that would be criminal if done by adults? Why are kids allowed to abuse other kids, when we ourselves are free to go to work without fear of torture and ridicule? Why is it that we condone child-on-child violence & bullying, then act shocked when the recipients of this violence fight back? Why this double standard? Why do we provide protection for grown adults, yet none for the kids - the ones who need it the most?

I'm definitely not condoning the shootings. Nor do I condone any other types of abuse - the beating and trash-canning, the bullying, the humiliation. If we stop one, I'm sure the other would disappear as well. I think we need to stop looking upon bullying and beating as just another part of childhood, and start seeing it for the assault that it really is. I think children should be held to the same standards of behavior among their peers as adults are held. I think we need to teach kids from Day One that it is NOT okay under any circumstances to assault another human being. Otherwise, we're only perpetuating this cycle of violence.

That's my two cents, anyway.

 

[DarkAngel]

Laurel,

You are a Goddess.

And your two cents worth are very true.

 

[Ksss]

I have to agree with you Laurel. Kids can be much more "abusive" than adults . I also think that the media plays a large part here also, just my opinion. The media rehashes previous shootings, continously bringing attention back to the "criminals". Children who only know the way to get attention by being "bad" read this, see the attention the media brings and the next thing you know, there is another "child crime" making headlines. I am not saying the media isn't important, but don't rehash and continually open the wounds from previous criminal acts...

 

[Laurel]

I have to agree with you Laurel. Kids can be much more "abusive" than adults . I also think that the media plays a large part here also, just my opinion. The media rehashes previous shootings, continously bringing attention back to the "criminals". Children who only know the way to get attention by being "bad" read this, see the attention the media brings and the next thing you know, there is another "child crime" making headlines. I am not saying the media isn't important, but don't rehash and continually open the wounds from previous criminal acts...

True, to some extent. I think that there's always a risk of 'copycat' killings. However, I also think that most of the time, kids pull guns on their classmates because they feel they have no other choice. And I think a good many of the 'copycat' crimes are pleas for help by kids who feel helpless. Is it right for them to kill? Absolutely not. Could it have been avoided? I think so.

If we're serious about ridding our schools of violence, we need to make kids adhere to the same rules as adults in this area. Kids jumping other kids in the hall or the parking lot and beating the crap out of them, or flushing their heads down toilets, or trash-canning them - these kids should be charged with assault. Period. It's not cute or funny or "just boys being boys" - it's a crime, and it's wrong.

We allow teens to bash each other - physically and emotionally - for their entire school lives, then wonder why they grow up to be violent adults?

School will never be an even playing field. The world's not a level playing field. There will always be kids (and adults) who are popular and well-liked, and other kids (and adults) who have social difficulties. Nothing will change that. However, no child does deserve to be mercilessly abused, any more than an adult deserves such treatment. All I'm asking for is for kids to be afforded the same protections that we enjoy.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

I'm totally agree with you that such behavior shouldn't be tolerated, Laurel, but what would be the consquences of this assault charge? Would it carry the same penalty as assault charges for adults? Would it be a part of your criminal record? Could you be turned down for a job because you "trash-canned" another kid when you were 9? Would a harsh punishment correct the behavior or stunt them even further developmentally?

I have no idea. Anybody have any thoughts?

 

[Blackbich]

Laurel...

You Go Girl!!!

When you run for president, you've got my vote!!!

Seriously, there's always been a double standard with things that have happened where children are concerned. For example, raping a child is called 'molestation.' Child abuse is often times overlooked. And, as you said, it's worse in schools because adults see it occurring but put another name on it. Until we as a society put our feet down, we will continue to have these tpes of problems.

 

[Laurel]

I'm totally agree with you that such behavior shouldn't be tolerated, Laurel, but what would be the consquences of this assault charge? Would it carry the same penalty as assault charges for adults?

Oh, of course not. The kids involved should be put in counseling and made to do some sort of community service work, maybe. When you're a kid, just getting caught & singled out can be punishment enough.

I think most kids who bully don't realize the consequences and gravity of what they're doing. They're just having fun. They think it's funny. It would be considerably less funny if it cost they had to spend their free time in anti-violence classes and picking up trash for a month or so.

The important thing would be to make it known that such behavior will NOT be tolerated. If it's not tolerated for adults, then it shoudn't be tolerated for kids.

When you run for president, you've got my vote!!!

LOL! Nah, I'd rather chew my own leg off than do that.

Seriously, there's always been a double standard with things that have happened where children are concerned. For example, raping a child is called 'molestation.' Child abuse is often times overlooked. And, as you said, it's worse in schools because adults see it occurring but put another name on it. Until we as a society put our feet down, we will continue to have these tpes of problems.

And child abuse goes unreported much more than people realize. Kids and animals are far too often the victims of violence & abuse because they don't have the power to speak out. It really makes me cry.

 

[Moonlight_33]

As a victom of many kids of abuse in my childhood, i can understand much of what kids are going through. so many of them feel out of place and out of control. the family structure hase falled apart, there is not respect, no set place and no rules. I remember well the pain i lived through as a child, and the hell i have recovered from as an adult. I think some of these kids are just in so much pain they stop feeing, or need to make others hurt more. It's a scream for help. As much as i unbderstand them, i can't condone them, i have children and being a parent intodays world is a terrifying thing, especialy when they become teens. It might have been easier if i had a "Normal" upbringing myself i guess, but we do the best we can. My kida have a voilent tendany that scares me, and i have always given them nothng but tenderness and suport. It's an issue that has more questions than answers.

 

[teresafannin]

Having spent a lot of years as a volunteer, I can safely say that there is still an awful lot of the "Boys will be boys" attitudes in many schools. Girls can also be terribly vicious to each other, I was amazed at some of the stuff I used to hear at my son's school, from both boys & girls. In many cities, Teen Court has been effective in dealing with many juvenile offenses. The problem is that the school administrators should be held accountable for what goes on, but many parents have made it nearly impossible for the schools to enforce zero tolerance policies, whether it is drugs, alcohol or fighting. A few years ago, a bunch of kids from my son's high school got caught with alcohol at the prom, which was held at a hotel downtown. They were all suspended, but the parents made such a fuss that the seniors were allowed to walk across the stage at graduation, although they didn't get diplomas. One of the girls involved was 15, a cheerleader & her parents sued the school & the district because she got suspended & kicked off the cheerleading squad & had to attend alternative school for the first 9 weeks of her junior year. Her parents said that the suspension ruined her reputation, I guess 15 year old girls out drinking with 18 year old boys is something her parents approved of. The judge dismissed the case, made the mother pay all attorney's fees & court costs for the school district, because he was fed up with irresponsible parents blaming everyone else for their messed up kids. It caused quite a sensation down here.Unfortunately, too many parents have that attitude, that their little darlings never make a mistake. From alcohol at the prom to verbal & physical abuse, much of the problem goes right back to the parents. Too many parents have little or no respect for teachers & principals, it is inevitable that it rubs off on the kids. One of the reasons so many educators are quitting is that they aren't paid what they are worth & they take an awful lot of shit that they don't deserve. The media is partly to blame, they do focus too much on the criminals. I think for many of these kids, even negative attention is better than being ignored. When I was active in PTA & other activities, we could never get the media to cover our events, but the kids busted at prom got front page & 6:00 headlines.

 

[bluntforcemama]

My philosophy on the issue

Funny-looking kids come from funny-looking parents, you get the idea.

 

[insideShiraz]

This all gives me a headache...

When I was in school, my parents kicked my ass long before any school needed to...

When I was in school, I fit into every group, Starting quarterback to the Bill Gates nerds...

Here, A youngster shot a cop in the Dick before shooting him in the head because he didn't want to go to jail...

I'm not perfect, but it is in my heart to be a Good Samaritan...Where is my post leading? I don't know...

Having been in jail, I think Rap is bullshit...Kids look up to animals

 

[Laurel]

You went to jail?

 

[FeatherLight]

*simply stands back and applaudes everyone*

 

[insideShiraz]

I went to Yale...

I've been on the Farm...

Get tanked, howl at the Moon...

Wake up in jail, but I haven't wanted to kill anyone

 

[Laurel]

Too much shiraz?

 

[insideShiraz]

lol...

I'm from the old school of Zeppelin...Pardy Hardy...

But I'd back you up in a second...

 

[Laurel]

Cool, and ditto! (but not megadittoes)

 

[insideShiraz]

Iz that picture of you?...

The 5'1" girl on the entrance to this place?

 

[Laurel]

Nope.

I'm 5'4".

 

[Weird Harold]

Why do we allow our children to do things that would be criminal if done by adults? Why are kids allowed to abuse other kids, ...

When my youngest daughter was in Middle School, she had a problem with a bully who battered her.

The bully changed her plea to guilty when my Daughter showed up to testify at her hearing.

My daughter had no more problems with bullies all through school. Coincidence? I think not.

Both schools and parents are at fault for the decline in discipline and education in our society. I think the abolition of corporal punishment and the institution of "peer promotion" occured at about the same time as the decline started.

 

[Problem Child]

Cool, and ditto! (but not megadittoes)

You just had to say it didn't you....

I agree with Weird Harold about corporal punishment and peer promotion.

Today when a kid gets out of line, what happens? They kick him out of school for a day or two, and then he's back in, or else the parents get a lawyer. The school doesn't want to get sued, so they buckle. God forbid a teacher ever touch a student, or out come the lawyers again.

One of my substitute father figures was Mr. Kincaid. About 6'3" and forearms like Popeye. If we got caught fucking off, he would grip the back of your neck and SQUEEZE, and look you right in the eye "you want me to go any tighter?". I would shake my head no, and remember it.

One day in math class I saw Mr. Wieshahn, who was also the football and wrestling coach, physically throw a kid against the wall so hard the kid had his wind knocked out. The kid had called a girl a "fucking bitch". Mr. Weishahn made him apologize to her in front of the class and told him if he ever did that again he would come looking for him. They had a nice little talk after class, and the kid was a pup after that.

I had a drafting teacher, Mr. Brewster. He would throw chalk at us if we talked in class. We hated his guts, but we respected him, and WE LEARNED. If I had gone home whining that my drafting teacher hit me in the head with a piece of chalk, my mom would have told me I probably deserved it, and to get my shit together. Then she would have called Mr. brewster to thank him.

All of these men were good men, real men, who had principles, and the incidents I remember were isolated. But they didn't hesitate to step up to the plate when it was needed. I'm not blaming the teachers of today...their hands are tied by the legal system.

Guess what- we never had school shootings back in the seventies. Lots of guns, easier to get our hands on then than they are now, and lots of picked-on, left-out, disillusioned kids, but no shootings.

I wonder why...

Consider this: why is it that you never hear of shootings in private or parochial schools? Could it be that discipline is a reality, instead of a theory?

It's all about taking responsibility and doing the right thing, like my man Spike says...

 

[Ally C]

Consider this: why is it that you never hear of shootings in private or parochial schools? Could it be that discipline is a reality, instead of a theory?

It's all about taking responsibility and doing the right thing, like my man Spike says...

Discipline is a reality. I'm still considering what you said, and having read through the examples on this thread, I don't think it's prudent or possible to generalise 'punishment'. Each case is unique, and recourse to debates about cultural factors (e.g. the influence of rap, firearms legislation, parenting etc) - while very welcome - can in my mind lose sight of what's at stake: the wellbeing of a solitary kid. I'm trying to come at this from a direction that starts with the needs of 'the one', as opposed to a society-wide perspective which for me gets problematic to focus on and make sense of. I don't mean adopting a selfish outlook like that taken by the parents in the post by teresafannin . I do mean 'selfish' (though this word can be misconstrued) with regard to the seriousness with which people ought to take responsibility for their kids. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this at all well ... but I'm trying to describe a mindset which would involve each 'family' unit (in whatever form) living in a way which would actively seek out that which was in the best interests for their kids without negatively impacting on others.

I'm running out of inspiration here ... Looking for an ideal situation isn't easy. One family at a time, and let's hope enough choose a responsible path to make a difference. To borrow and invert a saying: the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many in this case. Do the best you can for yourselves, it's the least you can do. And it's a damn sight more than most.

I have to agree with you Laurel. Kids can be much more "abusive" than adults.

I'd agree. It's all about being civilised, and any child coming into the world has to go through a process of learning right from wrong. It's not just a case of responsible adults versus troublesome kids though. There seems to be a lack of 'morality' (for want of another word) these days; a lack of 'authority' even. Parents, teachers, police and all other adults / agencies that should be inculcating youth with appropriate principles and rules seem increasingly impotent. I wonder why this is? From a historical perspective there are a hell of a lot of mistakes which have been made. Looking back to some 'golden age' of the parent / child relationship is more a flight of fantasy than an aid to tackling present problems. Did such an age ever exist in any far reaching context? And even if it did (which is doubtful), the 'adult' history of bygone times is far from ideal. If it's about evolution (and I've mentioned this elsewhere) then we haven't came far and have even further to go than we might like to admit. If a 'higher power' appeals to your sensibilities, then I think it's time you were on your knees.

 

[Ksss]

As a society who likes to think we live in a free world, let me ask this...
As a society, we have made it so that the educational system became more of a "babysitter" for our children, over the years expecting teachers and administrators to provide for our kids above and beyond the call of duty. Counsel them, teach them right from wrong, teach them what they are in school for. Then the educational system starts getting a bad rep, the parents bitch, the schools lose their ability to discipline. Then, parents continually complain the schools aren't living up to what they are there for. I am not saying all parents are like this, but as a majority rules situation this is where education has gotten to.
These teachers and administrators did not spend yours in college to learn to counsel, rear and discipline our chldren. They spent years learning, so they could pass on their "gift" to our children, educating them so they can be, hopefully, well rounded, productive individuals, who have some type of goal in their adult life.
So, my question is this or rather questions...
When did parents stop having to teach their children right from wrong?
When did parents stop having to take responsibility for loving their children and taking time out for their kids, placing them on the top of the list of things-to-do?
Why should schools be responsible for teaching our children values?

I spent many years as the carpool parent, the parent who was at sports cheering the kids on, helping with school functions, etc. I am still amazed at how many parents never showed up to support their kids due to "other" engagements. If our kids aren't number one in our lives, do we have the right to blame the education system when our kids go "bad"? Children learn by example, are we setting good examples for our kids when we tell them we are too busy, we don't have time, perhaps at a later date I will have time to participate in your life? Often, bully's are people who need love/attention which they lack from home, thus they belittle those weaker than they are making them feel like they have "power". Unfortunately, they gain attention, but the wrong type of attention. I do not condone these school shootings, but are the schools really responsible? If they don't get parental support on the trivial issues how can they do the job they are primarily there for? There is no way on earth I would want to be a teacher now, not with all the added responsibilites a teacher has to take on. My hat goes off to all the teachers out there for doing a job above and beyond the call of duty.

 

[Ally C]

So, my question is this or rather questions...
When did parents stop having to teach their children right from wrong?
When did parents stop having to take responsibility for loving their children and taking time out for their kids, placing them on the top of the list of things-to-do?
Why should schools be responsible for teaching our children values?

I don't know if the generic 'parents' line of questioning will get us far. This is far from helpful, and I'm sorry if I sound woefully negative ksss - that's not my intention, just a reflection on the status quo. As for schools, I think they have (or ought to have) a role in 'value teaching'. Certainly not shoulder the responsibilty entirely, but they are a crucial element in the formative years.

If our kids aren't number one in our lives, do we have the right to blame the education system when our kids go "bad"? Children learn by example, are we setting good examples for our kids when we tell them we are too busy, we don't have time, perhaps at a later date I will have time to participate in your life?

As a partner in the development of 'our' children they are open to 'blame' just like parents [etc] are. It depends on the circumstances. I'd never suggest blaming them alone. In most cases I daresay they are getting on with their work as best they can. It's about apportioning blame way too much these days. It seems to go with the idea of majority rule which you hinted at: nobody ends up taking individual responsibility, and nothing gets done.

I do not condone these school shootings, but are the schools really responsible? If they don't get parental support on the trivial issues how can they do the job they are primarily there for?

Again, it'll depend on each individual case. How much blame etc is notoriously difficult to say however. There are too many variables, and I'm not in the best position to comment. That's not a cop-out by me; I just got to thinking about what you [and others] had to say about the media. The fact that we are using this-a-here 'media' (or, rather, 'medium') to replay such events might ultimately add to a general feeling of unease? It's not all about 'is it the school or isn't it'. It's all about 'you', it's all about 'me' and it's also all about 'everyone else'. I'd like to come up with a lot more positive and definite answer, but if I could do that, I'm sure someone else would have thought of it by now.

 

[BrainyBeauty]

• How about teaching them right from wrong in the first place? At home.
  
• How about teachers and other adults within their spheres observing and, as Laurel says, holding them to a standard.
  
• Demonstrating that there are consequences to every action instead of ignoring it or tolerating it or hoping it will go away.
  
• Teaching them that we all live together, not in a self-absorbed, ego-centric vacuum. Explaining that others have rights and deserve respect. Reminding them that we do not live alone and that we need others.
  
• Re-iterating that the world does not revolve around them.
  
• Punishing and correcting behavior for those who don't follow rules.
  
• And inventing something more original and more intelligent than suspending or expelling kids from school. Sending them on their merry ways, only encourages further juvenile delinquent behavior - only now in a more public setting away from school. How about an in -school detention with MORE homework. More social responsibility, as someone previously suggested. (Laurel, was that you?) Community service. Cleaning the school - maybe with a toothbrush. I think something that is age-appropriate and relevant to the offense, Oliver.