Science Fiction and Fantasy

[Liar]

This has been some great discussion on this topic!! Thanks all!!!

One of the general things that has been talked about a bit is that the definition of science fiction is constantly changing.

Now, let me throw a new question out to you.....


Let's say someone wrote a book 300 years ago about underwater vessels (submarines). At the time that would have been considered science fiction.

The question is this: Would it still be considered science fiction today, or would it now be relegated to just fiction?

You don't have to go 300 years back in time, or to hypothetical scenarios to ask that question.

Take a peek at Jules Verne, who shot people to the moon in a cannon. Or take a peek at Orwell's '1984'. They both pictured future scenarios of dates that have passed. Scenarios that proved more or less incorrect.

Or take a look at the tagline for the 1981 movie 'Escape from New York': "1997. New York city is now a maximum security prison.Breaking out is impossible. Breaking in is insane." NY might be tough these days. But not THAT tough.

Are those reality fiction then? I dunno. They have gone from secribing a possible future to describing a parallell reality. Unless they manage to portray the society in which they take place on every account that is what it is. Maybe <sci-fi needs an expire date, for when it's not plausible to build predicions that holds water and suspends the disbelief?

#L

 

[sweetnpetite]

Well you can count me in as a hard core sci-fi fan who disdains fantasy.

And I've been know to throw books across the room when they turn into fantasy while I was expecting sci-fi.

Having said that, as everyone knows I adore Discworld, which is probably fantasy (The most shop-lifted series in the history of bookshops apparently)

Gauche

I think your right, I would put them as fantasy. I *love* those books. They are funny and smart and the footnotes crack me up. Its funny how he tells this crazy story like it's from a textbook or something. I think there is something quazi technical about his style that probably apeals to your sci-fi sensabilites. (and if not, isn't that a great sentance?)

Pern is too sci-fi for me, to fantasy for you


But everybody can appreciate Disc Wold. (My fave is Mort.)

 

[R. Richard]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Science Fiction and Fantasy

No it doesn't. It doesn't even have to take place in the past. Neither does fantasy fiction.

'The Dying Earth' is a really great collection of Fantasy stories (with some near SciFi) set in the far future.

 

[sweetnpetite]

what if its fiction w/ a strong emphasis on technology, but where the technology isn't speculative at all, but current (albiet not nesesarily mainstream?) Written in the same style as sci-fi gererally is [whatever that may be]

Is it science fiction then?

(Like say you write about a family that lives in a house like Bill Gates lives in, give it a sci-fi twist [maybe an unusaul computer virus that starts the house going heywire or something?] and do all the 'usual' (whatever that may be) science fiction things.)

 

[gauchecritic]

what if its fiction w/ a strong emphasis on technology, but where the technology isn't speculative at all, but current (albiet not nesesarily mainstream?) Written in the same style as sci-fi gererally is [whatever that may be]

Is it science fiction then?

(Like say you write about a family that lives in a house like Bill Gates lives in, give it a sci-fi twist [maybe an unusaul computer virus that starts the house going heywire or something?] and do all the 'usual' (whatever that may be) science fiction things.)

I'm guessing you don't read a great deal of sc-fi then SnP? That story is old hat.

Now a story about an old hat that got a computer virus from Bill Gates. There's an idea.

Gauche

 

[Weird Harold]

Let's say someone wrote a book 300 years ago about underwater vessels (submarines). At the time that would have been considered science fiction.

The question is this: Would it still be considered science fiction today, or would it now be relegated to just fiction?

I still consider Jules Verne's work to be science fiction, however if you want a copy of 20,000 Leagues under the Sea you'll not find it in the SF&F section of most book stores -- You'll find a copy in the Young adults section (probably a Disneyfied version) and you'll find a copy in the "Literature" section.

Of course, "your results may vary" dpending on where he bookstor is and whether it's a chain-store or a Mom & Pop store.

Here in Las Vegas the SF&F section is generally the third or fourth largest Fiction section of the big stores, (like Borders, B. Dalton, Waldenbooks, or Barnes and Noble,) Literature, Romance, and "contemporary fiction" are generally a tiny bit bigger. In the three used book stores I frequent, SF&F is second only to Romance -- despite the tendency of SF&F fans to hang onto their books. Depending on the particular store, the Mystery section might be a bit bigger or slightly smaller.

On the Other hand, when I visit my hunting buddy in Fallon, It's tough to find any SF&F in either of the town's two bookstores that isn't at least a year old and a best-seller. Their shelves are filled with Westerns in the number two or three spot.

When I visit relatives in Oregon or Washington, I have to go to a big city/mall branch of a major chain bookstore to find any current SF&F and the selection is still smaller than almost any bookstore here in Las Vegas.

I had a layover one time in downtown salt lake city a couple of years ago and visited a Borders not far from the bus station -- the clerk proudly showed me the two racks of SF&F hidden away in the back of the store and bragged about how they had the largest selection of SF&F in town! I've got more books than they had on the bookcase behind me, and that's not counting anything over ten years old!

Where you are has a BIG effect on how big the SF&F section is. (or the shelf space devoted to any genre.) I've even encountered on bookstore in southern California that had a big enough selection that they DID separate Fantasy and Science Fiction, but they were a HUGE store that advertised they had over a million titles on-hand.

I have noted that college towns tend to have bigger SF&F selections than towns without a college. Of coure that's not an absolute corelation -- it depends on the college. Reno and Manhattan KS both have relatively more westerns in their bookstores and less SF&F than Eugene OR or Seattle WA do -- but Nevada Reno and Kansas have large agricultural curiculims.

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

...Is it science fiction then?
... a house like Bill Gates lives in ... an unusaul computer . . . going heywire or something?... and ... all the 'usual'...science fiction things.

SweetPetitie.

Check for Demon Seed at your local video store.

It may be in Sci-Fi or they might have put it into Horror.

Not that great, but it IS what you have just described, and it's from 1977.

 

[Sabledrake]

SweetPetitie.

Check for Demon Seed at your local video store.

It may be in Sci-Fi or they might have put it into Horror.

Not that great, but it IS what you have just described, and it's from 1977.

Or look for the book(s) by Dean Koontz; he revised it a few years ago and essentially turned it into a completely different story.

Sabledrake

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I think I read a story called "By the Waters of Babylon" once... seemed sci-fi-ish.

 

[oggbashan]

Or look for the book(s) by Dean Koontz; he revised it a few years ago and essentially turned it into a completely different story.

Sabledrake

As you say they are different books.

The first version was considered anti-feminist and a rape fantasy. The second version 'empowered' the female.

Og

 

[sweetnpetite]

I'm guessing you don't read a great deal of sc-fi then SnP? That story is old hat.

Now a story about an old hat that got a computer virus from Bill Gates. There's an idea.

Gauche

Your right I don't.

So that's a yes then? it would be classified as science fiction. (thereby putting to rest that sci-fi must be futuristic, speculative or take place in outer space)

On Fantasy:

Some fantasy that doesn't have elves, magic or wizards- A.A. Milne (ie, Winnie the Poo) springs to mind. And maybe raggedy anne and andy

Madeline L'Engle (Wrinkle in Time amoung others) could probably fall into a science fiction category but I think it has more of a fantasy feel-- even though it goes agains the conventional beliefs about fantasy all being about 'anything goes' or 'no rules or believability'

When we start to try to define the genres of Sci-fi and fant, we inevitably start running into an awful lot of well ecxepted stereotypes about what these books are. I prefer the old definition used for pornogrophy: "I know it when I see it."