sex and religion

[James G 5]

but you know the old cliche "I'm a little kinky, the rest of you guys are sick fucks!")

2 things come to mind here.........the #1 thing people seem to be looking for when they go for therapy related to sex is an answer to the question "Am I 'normal' sexually?" Everyone, even kinky folk, want to feel like they're "ok" in others' eyes, which leads to some odd demonizations, such as in much of the swing community where bisexual women are prized but bisexual men (for many reasons, including the AIDS risk) are pariahs.

Secondly, HBO did a special on a town with a lot of Crack addicts. There was an interesting segment where they went at it with the town's heroin addicts & the 2 groups proceeded to trash each other. Unfortunately, it seems most groups feel a need to put down some other group to make their vices appear less threatening and to build a sense that their group is somehow "special". This quote shows how that happens sexually. It all springs from people needing to say "I'm not that bad, look at THEM!"

ANd last, what is taboo for you, and is it realated to religion or something else?

For me, I try to go by the Wiccan Rede and the Golden Rule
I'm not a Wiccan per se but it's credo of "An it harm none, do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" (with a follow up reminder about karma & consequences) seems like a good way to live
I look at what I am doing & say "Am I, or anyone else, being harmed?" (and no, I don't consider a consensual flogging harm, let's not even go there!) and if the answer is "No" then I don't see a problem with it.
This does NOT give a blanket allowance for people to do anything.....some people would say for instance "What if what you want it to screw kids?" Well, kids don't understand informed consent and it's been shown that they're harmed by interaction sexually with adults, so it's right out the window.
So I set my "taboos" on a case by case basis rooted in my SPIRITUAL beliefs (as opposed to religious ones) that if there're any higher powers in the Universe that they would want us to treat one another with care and respect....and that even if such powers DON'T exist we should STILL treat each other that way because it's the only way to live civilly with others & is just the RIGHT thing to do

Ok, I went off on a rant again, sorry

 

[sweetnpetite]

.
ANd last, what is taboo for you, and is it realated to religion or something else?

Buy taboo, I mean taboo for you. Like "I don't care if someone else wants to sleep with there cousins- but I would never" not stuff that doesn't turn you on or doesn't interest you, but just stuff that's no-no. I had a friend who'd hubby would NOT let her tie his hands up. It pushed his boundry of what was allowed.

 

[~*sunkyssed_kym*~]

I had a friend who'd hubby would NOT let her tie his hands up.

OH MY!! That's one of the first things on my to DO list!!!
Funny what people consider hard limits, huh???


-kym- thinking of cuffs and rope now......

 

[sweetnpetite]

2 things come to mind here.........the #1 thing people seem to be looking for when they go for therapy related to sex is an answer to the question "Am I 'normal' sexually?" Everyone, even kinky folk, want to feel like they're "ok" in others' eyes, which leads to some odd demonizations, such as in much of the swing community where bisexual women are prized but bisexual men (for many reasons, including the AIDS risk) are pariahs.

Secondly, HBO did a special on a town with a lot of Crack addicts. There was an interesting segment where they went at it with the town's heroin addicts & the 2 groups proceeded to trash each other. Unfortunately, it seems most groups feel a need to put down some other group to make their vices appear less threatening and to build a sense that their group is somehow "special". This quote shows how that happens sexually. It all springs from people needing to say "I'm not that bad, look at THEM!"



For me, I try to go by the Wiccan Rede and the Golden Rule
I'm not a Wiccan per se but it's credo of "An it harm none, do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" (with a follow up reminder about karma & consequences) seems like a good way to live
I look at what I am doing & say "Am I, or anyone else, being harmed?" (and no, I don't consider a consensual flogging harm, let's not even go there!) and if the answer is "No" then I don't see a problem with it.
This does NOT give a blanket allowance for people to do anything.....some people would say for instance "What if what you want it to screw kids?" Well, kids don't understand informed consent and it's been shown that they're harmed by interaction sexually with adults, so it's right out the window.
So I set my "taboos" on a case by case basis rooted in my SPIRITUAL beliefs (as opposed to religious ones) that if there're any higher powers in the Universe that they would want us to treat one another with care and respect....and that even if such powers DON'T exist we should STILL treat each other that way because it's the only way to live civilly with others & is just the RIGHT thing to do

Ok, I went off on a rant again, sorry

there's something I like about you.....

but yer kinda scarry too!

 

[WynEternal]

there's something I like about you.....

but yer kinda scarry too!

He's harmless... Really.

 

[James G 5]

there's something I like about you.....

but yer kinda scarry too!

Moi?
Scary?
Nooooooooooo!

 

[MoonduskSub]

Nah he ain't TOO scary
Moonie

Moi?
Scary?
Nooooooooooo!

 

[white_mage_goddess]

I'm pagan as well and I pretty much agree with every thing James G 5 said earlier.

In my spiritual community, sex is seen as a good and beautiful thing, a part of nature.

I'm personally an eclectic sort of pagan...I'm not wiccan per se, but I do try to abide by the "and it harm none...." rule. I consider that my guiding moral compass.

As far as worrying about what "god" thinks, its not an issue for me because my concept of "god" is different from that of most Judeo-christains and even that of many pagans I know. I don't believe in sentient diety at all. I belief there are strong natural forces in the universe which people often personify as dieties with specific names and attributes. I myself say "prayers" to certain gods and goddesses. When West Nile was running rampant in my county I said prayers to Epona, the celtic horse goddess, for theprotection of my 3 horses. Did I believe that some all knowing being was actually hearing that prayer? No, i didn't. I was merely invoking the powers and attributes which are associated with that particular mythological persona.

So I guess strictly speaking you might call me an atheist. I believe in divine power but not in "god". Since I don't believe in God I don't believe in the concept of sin. To me a "sin" is something thats supposedly inherently wrong just because "god" said so, like "sex outside marriage is wrong cause god says so," "homosexuality is wrong cause god said so." I just can't wrap my mind around that. If it doesn't hurt anyone how can it be wrong? Its like saying that wearing green is wrong cause I said so. Not for any reason, just cause I don't like green and I don't think you should wear it. That's how much sense it makes to me.

As far as sex goes, I believe that what two consenting adults do with each other cannot be "wrong." I do believe people should be sexually responsible, i.e. protect against disease and unwanted pregnancy, but other than that, what they do is their business.

People like to make the argument that even if both people consent and proper precautions are used that sex outside marriage is still wrong because its emotionally damaging. I don't agree. The pre marital sex I had caused me no emotional trauma whatsoever.

People will also argue that "kinky" sex acts are wrong, that they are unnatural perversions. I don't agree with that either. If the human body is capable of it, I see no reason not to do it if it happens to be what you enjoy.

Anyway, thats my much-more-than-two-cents worth. I tend to ramble on these things...

 

[sheath]

Like someone here mentioned, I also prescribe to the Wiccan and Vodun beliefs of karma...every action having a direct and personal consequence within the scheme of a life.

I was raised as a Southern Baptist, in a family with an incredibly backward view of sexuality. It seems that throughout my life, I was taught in indirect ways that sex always leads to a downfall of some kind, whether personal or professional.

Luckily, I have enjoyed men in my life who helped me break out of that "religious fervor" mold. I felt guilt for sex during my teen years, and my early twenties. But now I feel more open and liberated than I ever have before...and there IS a reason.

It all boils down to comfort in my beliefs. I go into every sexual act with the knowledge that I am doing something beautiful and sacred, and that beauty comes in many forms. I have no qualms about anything I do, no matter how extreme it gets, because I know my personal limits, and those limits are set ONLY by me, not by what someone else thinks I should believe.

And thus far? My karma is smiling upon me.

S.

 

[white_mage_goddess]

Sheath,

I think you bring up a really valid point in that one's upbringing can initially have a lot to do with how they view sexuality. I was fortunate to be raised by agnostic parents who had a healthy sexlife and saw nothing wrong with sex outside marriage. It was my mother who always told me that sex was a beautiful and healthy thing. In fact, when my friends moms were preaching "wait till you marry!", my mom said "Don't you dare marry a man before you take him for a test ride!!!" I think her attitude was a good thing for me and helped me to be comfortable with my sexuality early on. I'm 20 yrs old and very open minded about sex. I know 40 year old women who are still full of hang ups and unable to enjoy sex. I believe a lot of it must have something to do with the way they were raised.

 

[statusq]

Thx to SnP for a topic area which i've never seen here before.
Personally, i follow a lot of buddhist philosophy though i don't officially follow any "religion". In a lot of ways, I believe in a bit of everything: in a LIFE OF PI sort of way.
Admittedly sometimes you just wanna get laid, but hopefully you don't lose sight of what's important: respect for yourself, your partner, the universe. Healthy sex good, unhealthy sex bad.
i do feel some contradictions in my being: RE: passion and craving inevitably lead to some suffering. You should be able to find contentment w/ or w/out passionate sex.
hopefully it's not too hard to find someone who's into kinky sex and spiritual growth. exploration is the way.

Peace, wiL

 

[Lust Engine]

I believe a lot of it must have something to do with the way they were raised.

Regardless of how they were raised, it's where they go with their lives from here. You & sheath are prime examples of beautiful women that have embraced your lives and living a wonderful life. Congrats to you both and I can only wish more people would take responsibility for their own joys & sorrows.

Religon tends to remove responsibility from a person. It can excuse certain acts and make a person less culpable for their lives. Once you realize that you can take control is when I think you are fully expressing the Creator's (whether it be God or whatever higher power you believe in) role for you as a sentient being.

 

[crzegrl]

Hello all, my first post and what an interesting topic!

Maybe you all could give me some insight...

My "hell fire and brimstone" up-bringing did not help me have a realistic view on being sexual, much less being a sexual woman. It has taken me so long to break away from that brainwashing that although my thinking has evolved, I may still have some residual "subconscious" hang-ups.

As far as my evolution of thought, I am happy to be a free-thinker, but I am so afraid that my upbringing has "stunted" my ability to really be completely free about sex. I can't imagine not having it, but it seems that it is the last thing I think about. (work full time/grad school full time)

The other part of me thinks I am on the verge of breaking away from that completely. I am very open to new things, as is my lover...and we have had quite an open relationship for being married.......so the long and the short of it. I have a thing about always looking outside of our relationship.....looking for something exciting. Maybe I answered my own question.....sex with him is good, but maybe not exciting enough for me....

Okay, if that is the answer, then wow........

 

[Sabledrake]

I suppose I'm agnostic. Was raised with no religion of any sort. No one in my family ever went to church or religious services. I don't know why. It was just never part of our lifestyle.

Needless to say, this caused a bit of a stir when my daughter was born and my husband's grandmother asked about christening, and I (perhaps thoughtlessly but in all honest surprise) said, "Why?"

Basically, I find that way down deep I distrust organized religion. I want to believe in some greater purpose, and in souls, and in the possibility of a life beyond this one, but I just can't get behind the religion thing.

Maybe because there are so many, and all convinced they're the one-only-right way to be. Maybe because, unfortunately, my line of work brings me into contact with people who perhaps aren't the best representatives of their faiths. Maybe because I grew up too much on my own, taught that I had to be self-sufficient because there wasn't anything external I could rely on -- my family's pretty flaky, in general.

I've had co-workers think that because I write fantasy novels, I must be a pagan or Wiccan. I've dealt with the "all gamers are suicidal devil worshippers" nonsense. I'm currently seeing a friend basically drive a wedge between herself and everyone else around her because of her choice of a new church.

My interest in history, and especially ancient cultures, has given me a lot to think about when it comes to sex and religion. When it comes to my personal habits, I shy away from certain acts and behave in certain ways not because I feel any particular thing is "right" or "wrong," but because I've got various insecurities about my body image and desirability.

Anyway, sorry, wandered some, and the kid is clamoring that it's time to go to Girl Scouts. We don't turn in the cookie money, and the Brownie Hit Squad will show up at the house.

Sabledrake

 

[James G 5]

Religon tends to remove responsibility from a person. It can excuse certain acts and make a person less culpable for their lives. Once you realize that you can take control is when I think you are fully expressing the Creator's (whether it be God or whatever higher power you believe in) role for you as a sentient being.

You've just done a GREAT job of expressing one of my issues with organized religions, thank you

 

[Lust Engine]

You've just done a GREAT job of expressing one of my issues with organized religions, thank you

Thanks for the compliment James. I hope I haven't offended any of the more religious folks who tune into Lit, but it is my little opinion.

It's also my disdain for organized religons too. Who controls these entities but man? Does a lone man who never attends church any more or less holy than one who attends weekly? I find that the Creator speaks to all of us on a one-to-one basis. Why let another person come between that sacred dialogue?? I've also found so many deaths caused by religious intolerance, it's disgusting... and yet supposedly justifiable.

 

[James MacGregor]

Hey James G-5?
Um...about this "sick fuck" thing? Do they like make a badge or a tee-shirt for that? and more importantly, where can I get one??? *Grin*

 

[Mysticcal]

just caught up on the posts and so many said things that I feel deeply, not even sure where to start for myself.

I have spent most of my life with a distrust of organized religion. I was brought up catholic but rejected that at an early age. In just the last couple years have found my way and my belief in the Creator again, and it has changed my life. It started with accepting complete responsibility for my life and realizing everything happens for a reason, and are a result of the choices I make. Most amazing thing maybe is that how simple it all is. When faced with choices, I now look to see not only what "feels" right in the moment but what is the simplest.....and trust my instincts.

And now for sex. I always enjoyed it, and was luckily brought up by very open parents. This gave me a guilt-free enjoyment of it. And then recently I realized something....there have been times in the past where I really connected with someone, and it was an energizing experience, yet others I walked away feeling drained. I finally worked it out, that for me, sex is a sharing of energy....an expression of the spirit as well as ego. And sometimes it is a postive, spirit filled event, even with just a loving friend, but others, it is a negative, taking, not sharing experience. And as I look back, I can see where I ignored my instincts and am not going to do that anymore.

For me now, I want a sensual and sexual experience....and won't settle for less. And as statusq said, I am looking for that kink with the spiritual growth.

 

[sheath]

Thanks for the compliment James. I hope I haven't offended any of the more religious folks who tune into Lit, but it is my little opinion.

It's also my disdain for organized religons too. Who controls these entities but man? Does a lone man who never attends church any more or less holy than one who attends weekly? I find that the Creator speaks to all of us on a one-to-one basis. Why let another person come between that sacred dialogue?? I've also found so many deaths caused by religious intolerance, it's disgusting... and yet supposedly justifiable.

My thoughts exactly....

You always put things SO clearly, Lusty.

S.

 

[SlickTony]

And who was it whose daughters slept with him to ensure the family line??

Why, that was Lot. <inserting plug here> (Check out my Survivor I & II series). Their acts led to the founding of the Ammonite and Moabite tribes.

I'll have to jump into this discussion later when my son isn't waiting for me to let him play Tetris.

 

[entitled]

while it's still early enough for me to be somewhat coherent

The first thing that should probably be done is to define a few terms. Yes, i promise this all ties in somewhere. Sex is sex. We should all have an idea what that is.

spirituality: \Spir`it*u*al"i*ty\, n.; pl. Spiritualities. [L. spiritualitas: cf. F. spiritualit['e].] 1. The quality or state of being spiritual; incorporeality; heavenly-mindedness.
2. (Eccl.) That which belongs to the church, or to a person as an ecclesiastic, or to religion, as distinct from temporalities.
3. An ecclesiastical body; the whole body of the clergy, as distinct from, or opposed to, the temporality. [Obs.]

religion: \Re*li"gion\ (r[-e]*l[i^]j"[u^]n), n. [F., from L. religio; cf. religens pious, revering the gods, Gr. 'ale`gein to heed, have a care. Cf. Neglect.] 1. The outward act or form by which men indicate their recognition of the existence of a god or of gods having power over their destiny, to whom obedience, service, and honor are due; the feeling or expression of human love, fear, or awe of some superhuman and overruling power, whether by profession of belief, by observance of rites and ceremonies, or by the conduct of life; a system of faith and worship; a manifestation of piety; as, ethical religions; monotheistic religions; natural religion; revealed religion; the religion of the Jews; the religion of idol worshipers.
2. Specifically, conformity in faith and life to the precepts inculcated in the Bible, respecting the conduct of life and duty toward God and man; the Christian faith and practice.
3. (R. C. Ch.) A monastic or religious order subject to a regulated mode of life; the religious state; as, to enter religion. --Trench.
4. Strictness of fidelity in conforming to any practice, as if it were an enjoined rule of conduct. [R.]

All that bla-di-bla from dictionary.com can be boiled down to very simple ideas: spirituality is what goes on inside a person in relation to their deity(ies) while religion is the physical act or the show put on to display to friends, family, and neighbors that somebody is a spiritual person. In other words, a person can be very spiritual without adhering to a specific religion (without going through the motions).

Right. Fine. What does that mean? Simple. It means that sex is fine with a truly spiritual person. The deities never put any taboos on sex that i know of. i'm probably wrong there. *laughs* All the taboos and societal norms came from the differing religions - the institutions made up by the people that know how to bend an ear or were strong enough to muscle their bone-headed way into the head seat of the tribe, depending on the day and age. What the leader said went. Period. That's where things get interesting.

Today's mainstream society frowns upon things like bestiality, BDSM, incest, etc. Much of that has come in the past couple hundred of years. i don't have the facts right in front of me, but in times not very long past, some of these things were actually preferred by the elite of society. It was only when the 'lesser' people started emulating the 'high class' folk that it was seen as crude and unbearable, becoming taboo.

Religion has flowed along the same lines as sex in that regard. Mainstream religions have become based less on superstitions and the 'old ways' as the holy scriptures have been written, revised, rewritten, revised again, etc. Most of the spirituality part has been blanched out until people have ended up with a list of rules and regulations written out in fancy words. Even with that there have been problems. It's hard to put into a book what was taught for centuries through one person's teachings punctuated by pictures (that's what stained glass windows were for - to teach the illiterate the stories). There are literally thousands of versions of scriptures and very few agree, with the exception of a few things. Most, if not all, religions and spiritualists will agree on these few things.

1. Do to others what You want done back. This basic rule is in every religious script i know of.
2. Stand up for what You believe in. Some scripts say to do this more violently than others, but the premise is there.
3. If it won't hurt You, Your family, Your friends, or Your God(s) it can be done.

That third one is where sex falls back into the whole thing. It falls under that one. Does sex do major harm? Under normal circumstances, no. What about all that 'kinky' or 'nasty' stuff? Most of it will not harm, no. It has the potential, but if it's consensual on all parts, it doesn't go against the main rule. Will it damage mentally? That's for each individual to decide. That's where the struggle with religion, spirituality, and sex comes in. Religion's constrictions have had their way with some people to the extent that sex will never be enjoyable because it's a taboo act. On the other end of that, there are people who just don't care if they fit into religion's little corset and do as they please. me? i say if they don't find out.....

 

[entitled]

Oy! i ramble! *laughs*

 

[James G 5]

Hey James G-5?
Um...about this "sick fuck" thing? Do they like make a badge or a tee-shirt for that? and more importantly, where can I get one??? *Grin*

Maybe we should start a line of shirts.......LOL

 

[Lust Engine]

My thoughts exactly....

You always put things SO clearly, Lusty.

S.

I try my darndest sheath! Sorry if I sound as though I'm on a soapbox spouting a bit but I find that one's relationship with their Creator & sex one of the most personal things a person can have. Who are we to judge or make someone feel guilty about EITHER one?

 

[statusq]

First, i agree w/ Mysticcal's comment about sex being an energy thing. Loving sex is where both partners are into giving more than taking, in action and energy. i know this older woman who talks about how unhealthy promiscuity is because you're giving away part of yourself. Well, that may be true, but it need not be unhealthy. although i've never been fortunate enough to be promiscuous, i've always found sexual encounters to be revitalizing.

Eternal rambles, but at least s/he's on topic. i rather dug the comments actually. Makes me think that despite dogma or scripture, etc, it's in the end a purely personal decision about how spirituality and sexuality can dis/harmonize. But that begs the question: is everyone able to be self-aware enough to make their own decision? People who have been brain-washed since childhood may not, and thus will fall back on dogma to judge morality for them. Sure someone can go out and have sex and all, but they may not be able to do so openly or w/out guilt.

Final comment: i could be deceived in this, but i don't expect many responses here to mention much guilt factor. The Lit discussion board is WAY more sexually liberalized than the general population. The guilt factor is certainly out there...
(and i admit that even i get that dirty feeling from some pornography)