Sex Work

[evesdream]

I wanted to start a thread about sex work involving dominance and submission, from dominant and submissive, top/bottom perspectives. If you have experiences from a client or from purveyor perspective, or comments about safety or emotional health (particularly from the submissive side of things) please use this thread to post about it!

If you have comments about morality, or infidelity i don't want to FUCKING hear it. Thank-you.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Not quite sure what you are looking for exactly, and/or whether we are talking about a one off or permanent arrangement, and for what purpose, so will do my best at this early hour to respond. From a submissive's perspective I daresay the health and safety issues come under the Dominance responsibility and should only be attempted in a strong relationship where it is not a limit which is going to cause irreparable emotional or psychological problems for the submissive. It does fulfil humiliation and degradation requirements for many.

Catalina http://www.smilies4you.de/content/sonstige/c90.gif

 

[Netzach]

There are pro-subs in the world, or pro bottoms to be probably more accurate, as well as a number of professional Dominants who will switch with clients or select clients, still within the business model of non-prostitution sex work. No fluids, no intercourse, no oral or manipulation to orgasm.

The average guy who comes to a good House is not a horny wanker, though you will certainly meet a couple of those. You can be a horny wanker and get laid anywhere, you can get a hand job anywhere, it's NOT everywhere that you can enact your Dominant fantasies and have a corseted girl kiss your boots and balance a baloon on her nose, if that's your thing.

My hunch, and the feeling of those I have spoken to who do switch as pros (I choose not to) is that people with an actual Top/Dominant orientation tend to make better professional bottoms because they aren't likely to "sink" or let their guard down, and it remains more in the realm of "acting".
I don't know if that's always the case, but it would seem to build in boundaries immediately.

There are certain subs who are as talented and savvy in fantasy fulfillment. They are sometimes prodommes too.

Bottom line, once money changes hands, you are now a fulfiller of fantasies.

When you work close to your orientation, as I do, the thing you have to be careful about is not letting the annoying things about being a professional taint that sweet, vulnerable, and sacred part of your OWN sexuality... whether you are Dominant or submissive.

Then again, the majority of the time, I'm having a damn good time. I've had clients whose energies were so cool that I've learned new things, been open to new scenes. If you are really into enjoying the diversity of bottoms out there, if you genuinely *like* bottoms, and can be flexible, it can be fun.

 

[Pure]

netzach said, //Then again, the majority of the time, I'm having a damn good time.//

I doubt that she's typical, unfortunately. Apart from distaste, I'd say the most common 'time' is the same 'time' the fellow has who comes to repair your washing machine. It aint bad work, though it's not picking daisies, for a hundred an hour.

I'd also mention that the leariness over prostitution charges is likely behind the N's rules, no intercourse, no handjobs [her term 'manipulation' is not entirely clear]; though, in principle, a dom/me may establish any rule about sex gratification they wish to, as their prerogative, and demand agreement.]

However, where prostitution is ignored or is legal, e.g., Canada, England (iirc), Holland, or where the parties know one another well, there may NOT be a 'no sex' rule, at least as tight as N makes it. Iow, in these cases, some kinds of gratification are going to occur and may be expected.

The above is based on direct or in-person discusion, irl and online, and published interview/memoirs.

J.

 

[catalina_francisco]

However, where prostitution is ignored or is legal, e.g., Canada, England (iirc), Holland,
J.

...and most of Oz these days.

Catalina

 

[Guest]

netzach said, //Then again, the majority of the time, I'm having a damn good time.//

I doubt that she's typical, unfortunately. Apart from distaste, I'd say the most common 'time' is the same 'time' the fellow has who comes to repair your washing machine. It aint bad work, though it's not picking daisies, for a hundred an hour.

I'd also mention that the leariness over prostitution charges is likely behind the N's rules, no intercourse, no handjobs [her term 'manipulation' is not entirely clear]; though, in principle, a dom/me may establish any rule about sex gratification they wish to, as their prerogative, and demand agreement.]

However, where prostitution is ignored or is legal, e.g., Canada, England (iirc), Holland, or where the parties know one another well, there may NOT be a 'no sex' rule, at least as tight as N makes it. Iow, in these cases, some kinds of gratification are going to occur and may be expected.

The above is based on direct or in-person discusion, irl and online, and published interview/memoirs.

J.

Hmmm I looked into some of this a while back, and while Prostitutes (bless their entrepenurial little bottoms ) may be ignored, D/s and S&M activity often aren't. SOmehow they have decided that getting flogged is worse than getting fucked. If this Pc weren't acting a bit squirrely, I would go back and look up the case (In England) where this was decided.
Periodicly my comp will decide that it just doesn't want to do things. *sigh* Without even the benefit of having a virus.

The reason I looked into it, was that I was "partners" with a very talented lady, and we thought about going into the business ourselves.
It pays well to say the least. Especially when you consider that we had contemplated diversifying into Dungeon design, Bondage furniture, and perhaps even a club down the road.
But... Here in this area of the states it is VERY restrictive as to what can go on.
And, there is a silently approved method of operation that boils down to "We will shut you down, till we can find a legal reason to do so permanently."
One of the local BDSM groups (Who shall remain nameless) is so used to walking a tightrope, that all party funds MUST be accepted a minimum amount of time before the start of the event.
Money CANNOT change hands on the grounds where the party is happening or even on the same day. This, was explained to me, as the way they avoid one type of legal harrasment.
Also it is very hard to do as a male Dom. Fem Dommes, and couples, actually seem to have a really good market. Couples because of the sheer oddity.

 

[Netzach]

netzach said, //Then again, the majority of the time, I'm having a damn good time.//

I doubt that she's typical, unfortunately. Apart from distaste, I'd say the most common 'time' is the same 'time' the fellow has who comes to repair your washing machine. It aint bad work, though it's not picking daisies, for a hundred an hour.

I'd also mention that the leariness over prostitution charges is likely behind the N's rules, no intercourse, no handjobs [her term 'manipulation' is not entirely clear]; though, in principle, a dom/me may establish any rule about sex gratification they wish to, as their prerogative, and demand agreement.]

However, where prostitution is ignored or is legal, e.g., Canada, England (iirc), Holland, or where the parties know one another well, there may NOT be a 'no sex' rule, at least as tight as N makes it. Iow, in these cases, some kinds of gratification are going to occur and may be expected.

The above is based on direct or in-person discusion, irl and online, and published interview/memoirs.

J.

I'm *sure* I'm not typical of sex workers, I would only speak of my experience. I'm possibly not typical of professional disciplinarians in the states, but I think there's a good arrangement of us that *could* be lawyers doctors and middle managers and happen to enjoy tying up businessmen much more.

To someone for whom the notion is repugnant, that may be hard to buy, and they may assume that all people who do this are driven by desperation and poverty and lack of option. I know that I waited a long time and it was only after my choice felt like a career move rather than a desperation antic that I went for it.

 

[Pure]

Evesdream: I hope this is relevant to your thread. If not, I will delete it.

EK said,

//Hmmm I looked into some of this a while back, and while Prostitutes (bless their entrepenurial little bottoms ) may be ignored, D/s and S&M activity often aren't. SOmehow they have decided that getting flogged is worse than getting fucked.//

While I know of such cases, I think they (DS prosecutions, where there is nonsexual DS) are the exception; even in the Spanner case, I believe there was, iirc, sexual stuff besides the torture. (The parties were also gay.) But yes, if the neighborhood finds 50 men lined up at someone's door for flogging, something's going to happen.

Your own example tends to prove the point:

//One of the local BDSM groups (Who shall remain nameless) is so used to walking a tightrope, that all party funds MUST be accepted a minimum amount of time before the start of the event.
Money CANNOT change hands on the grounds where the party is happening or even on the same day. //

Clearly the lack of money changing hands is to avoid prostitution and bawdy-house charges.

This is typical. A local mistress here was shut down, for a time; she was both charging and getting involved in masturbation of 'subs', so she was 'entrapped' easily.

Another factor in your example, true here: it's the *gathering that can create a problem, since it's not 'private' behavior. Even if there is no money, the place of gathering often falls under the definition of 'bawdy house' if 'lewd' acts are performed. Also 'public indecency' might be invoked.

I don't doubt that zealous prosecutors say 'we'll shut you down, then find a reason,' but I'd maintain that Netzach's rules PLUS avoiding gatherings, PLUS avoiding repeated use of a premises, would generally make the DS or SM activity fall outside of state laws, in most cases. Specific refs to SM are rare, outside of porn laws.

In essence you're dealing with something 'offensive' to a large number of people, so they are going to do something about it, if it's flaunted or brought strongly to their attention. Here there was a case of an artist publicly exhibiting sanitary napkins with blood. There was a charge: "Exhibiting a disgusting object."

 

[Netzach]

In that case, how'd Ashcroft ever get onto network TV?

 

[Pure]

I assume A can get on network tv whenever he pleases. Not sure what you mean.

But possibly you're referring to the drafting of porn and porn on internet laws to include SM. I should have mentioned that more clearly. Iow, the legislators do NOT want 'flogging' movies to escape control/suppression, where the flogger follows your (N's) rules of no sex.

So there are explicit additions *in some porn laws, existing and proposed*, beyond sexual activities, to pain inflicting activities, etc.

This of course doesn't make it illegal for you to whip someone for their non sexual gratification, rather for you to make and sell a film of it, or to make a film where actors simulate such SM acts.

J.

 

[lark sparrow]

I'm *sure* I'm not typical of sex workers, I would only speak of my experience. I'm possibly not typical of professional disciplinarians in the states, but I think there's a good arrangement of us that *could* be lawyers doctors and middle managers and happen to enjoy tying up businessmen much more.

To someone for whom the notion is repugnant, that may be hard to buy, and they may assume that all people who do this are driven by desperation and poverty and lack of option. I know that I waited a long time and it was only after my choice felt like a career move rather than a desperation antic that I went for it.

It is typical of many who are well-respected and highly successful within the BDSM community at large here in the Bay Area. It's not uncommon for them to be highly educated, articulate and passionate Women who can do just about anything they chose to do, including excelling at high levels of scholastic and/or corporate careers. They may be "the creme of the crop", but if one doesn't do their research in choosing wisely and aren't willing to spend the money, then the mediocre distaste Pure speaks of is probably easy enough to find/pursue, as usual.

 

[Netzach]

I assume A can get on network tv whenever he pleases. Not sure what you mean.

It was a funny.

"Exhibiting a disgusting object."

 

[ownedsubgal]

there are Masters out there who will "pimp out" their slaves, whether on rare occasion or frequently/permanently...it's not something you hear about all the time like the ProDomination field, but it's not too uncommon. a true, to-the-core submissive (particularly one who is a slave and has no choice in the matter) can serve a man in need like few street prostitutes or professional escorts could, or would be willing to do. even a client with the most vanilla and hum drum of tastes can appreciate a meek, subservient little thing to use however they please, who won't give them any lip about it either. the reasons for a Dominant or Master to use their property in this way are many...it may be for humiliation or degradation purposes, as Catalina mentioned. or it could simply be to remind the submissive of their place and purpose on this earth.

as for how such an arrangement could effect the submissive emotionally...well, if she is one who becomes emotionally attached to a person thru sexual activity, then such work will likely shatter her if done on a continual basis. however if she is one who knows and feels her place as a tool for use, service and pleasure, then it is possible to find fulfillment and satisfaction in it. i guess it doesn't need to be said that this is an area with which i have had some experience.

 

[Pure]

N...duh.. i got it now.... slow brain day..

 

[Pure]

Hi LS,

good to see your posting.

you said, after mentioning some accomplished, wise, dommes who love their work,

//but if one doesn't do their research in choosing wisely and aren't willing to spend the money, then the mediocre distaste Pure speaks of is probably easy enough to find/pursue, as usual.//

I realize there may be differences, according to amounts charged/paid, as with prostitutes. Those professionals who are more choosy (being able to afford that) can, of course, choose men they like. I remember a fine movie about British 'pro' who had about 6 males, with whom she rotated; living at their country home for a week. A fine life.

What I meant to characterize, apart from the extremes of 'great time' and 'distaste', is a matter-of-fact attitude; little emotion, just do the job professionally. That's why I used the example of a washing machine repairman. If you're being paid well, a bit of detachment is possible-- as with, say, a proctologist. Or a bedside nurse. Or the 'plastic surgeon' who does liposuction a lot. I won't try to state proportions, which as you say, vary, but I think many mid-income-range-sex workers,--the ones I know, being female-- have this attitude.

J.

 

[lark sparrow]

Hello Pure - what I mean to say is that status quo is not all there is... I have seen many a person on this very board gushing with the experience of meeting Midori through her classes, and yet Midori (among many other female Dominants in the Bay Area) are or have been extremely gifted professional Dominants, and people. Either way money is paid for knowledge/experience/connection - Midori was my "test" session into real life and I can assure you she was just as classy, gifted, in control, and a dynamic teacher in a paid BDSM session as she is in her more accepted and attended paid group classes.

Why would one's gift and passion automatically be wiped out upon making it a profession? Should we boo pro football players and artists who are recognized before their demise? If you want to concentrate on the mundane, okay... but there is more.

Hi LS,

good to see your posting.

you said, after mentioning some accomplished, wise, dommes who love their work,

//but if one doesn't do their research in choosing wisely and aren't willing to spend the money, then the mediocre distaste Pure speaks of is probably easy enough to find/pursue, as usual.//

I realize there may be differences, according to amounts charged/paid, as with prostitutes. Those professionals who are more choosy (being able to afford that) can, of course, choose men they like. I remember a fine movie about British 'pro' who had about 6 males, with whom she rotated; living at their country home for a week. A fine life.

What I meant to characterize, apart from the extreme of 'great time' and 'distaste', is a matter-of-fact attitude; little emotion, just do the job professionally. That's why I used the example of a washing machine repairman. If you're being paid well, a bit of detachment is possible-- as with, say, a proctologist. Or a bedside nurse. Or the 'plastic surgeon' who does liposuction a lot. I won't try to state proportions, which as you say, vary, but I think many mid-income-range-sex workers,--the ones I know, being female-- have this attitude.

J.

 

[Pure]

LS said,

//Why would one's gift and passion automatically be wiped out upon making it a profession?//

It isn't, of course, my friend. Yet real passion is often more clear where large sums are not involved.

Where they are, being it soccer stars, brain surgeons, rock guitarists, dommes etc, you're going to see a certain amount of 'in it for the fame, or money, or perks'--or more commonly, IF there is an initial high level of 'performance,' a gradual erosion of quality, and of real 'passion.' The surgeon gets more into his yacht and does a couple perfuctory days a week.

Agreed there are in every field of 'endeavor', some hugely talented and committed folks that keep the standards, and keep the passion, and ability to 'relate' to people (if that's relevant).
===

By the way, why has no one in this thread, yet mentioned the MONEY problem. Is A's caring, warmth, etc. really possible where B is paying large sums of money for carefully alloted chuncks of A's time? Should the 'caring' be professional and cool, as in psycholanalysis or social work, quite often? Should the term and concept of 'friendship' NOT be used? (Analysts are at least clear on this matter, and reject the label 'friend', and follow through with a 'no socializing' rule.)

J.

 

[lark sparrow]

LS said,

//Why would one's gift and passion automatically be wiped out upon making it a profession?//

It isn't, of course, my friend. Yet real passion is often more clear where large sums are not involved.

Where they are, being it soccer stars, brain surgeons, rock guitarists, dommes etc, you're going to see a certain amount of 'in it for the fame, or money, or perks'--or more commonly, IF there is an initial high level of 'performance,' a gradual erosion of quality, and of real 'passion.' The surgeon gets more into his yacht and does a couple perfuctory days a week.

Agreed there are in every field of 'endeavor', some hugely talented and committed folks that keep the standards, and keep the passion, and ability to 'relate' to people (if that's relevant).
===

By the way, why has no one in this thread, yet mentioned the MONEY problem. Is A's caring, warmth, etc. really possible where B is paying large sums of money for carefully alloted chuncks of A's time? Should the 'caring' be professional and cool, as in psycholanalysis or social work, quite often? Should the term and concept of 'friendship' NOT be used? (Analysts are at least clear on this matter, and reject the label 'friend', and follow through with a 'no socializing' rule.)

J.

Hello Pure....I suppose it's really up to the individual and what they seek and are comfortable with. I'm going to wait on response to any thread until I have something positive to say... it might be awhile.

 

[ownedsubgal]

i must admit that the fact that money was involved, took much of the pleasure i normally get from serving and pleasing out of the "work" situations. one reason is because of the pressure it added...the pressure to serve exceptionally well because after all, they were paying for it. also it made it difficult for me to remind men of my Master's limits for my use, because i had this persistent notion that since they were paying, they should get their "money's worth", and be able to do anything to me they wished. it was just very stressful and emotionally draining for me all the way around. my Master eventually ceased my work altogether both because of the effect it was having on me as well as the headache it was for him to organize the whole thing. it's not an area we definitely won't be delving into again...i'm sure it will happen again someday...just will never be such a "full-time" thing, not so much like a job, but simply a perversion as it should be.

 

[evesdream]

Sex work as catharsis?

Thanks so much for opening the conversation Catalina.

I'm still a trainee in my choosen field, and I have to insist, contrary to what you said Netzach, there are a hell of a lot of horny, can only barely contain themselves men out there. It's practically an epidemic. Maybe, I'm starting out in a not-so-nice-house.

I'm not sure how many of my secrets I should tell here there being a reason for online journals. The most difficult thing for me at this stage is what Netzach called 'sinking' and it's probably what might prevent me from exploring much more deeply into this, and limiting my stay. If there's something unprofessional about my approach, it's that that I am getting an awful lot of visceral satisfaction. More unprofessional - I also find I get so hot headed in sexual, not necessarily submissive situations, with a real drive to please, even without any exchange of fluids. I need to work on professional detachment, because I'm wary of putting myself in situations where I'll be used or badly handled and there are profound/serious/irresistable/moth-to-flame undertones to this.

Sex work as an act of degredation...In my case any element of degredation is masturbatory. I'm putting myself through this for my own reasons, toying with limits only on a basic level and every step more or less under my control, and it's just sexploration for me at this point. Someone compelling me into this right now, would be leagues different. precursor to the type of humiliation that i'm extremely sensitive to. This might be a dangerous thing to say, but I have a choice and I wouldn't be doing this if I wasn't having a good time.

ownedsubgal said, "...not so much like a job, but simply a perversion as it should be." For me it's a thin line.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Re: Sex work as catharsis?

Thanks so much for opening the conversation Catalina.

I'm still a trainee in my choosen field, and I have to insist, contrary to what you said Netzach, there are a hell of a lot of horny, can only barely contain themselves men out there. It's practically an epidemic. Maybe, I'm starting out in a not-so-nice-house.

I'm not sure how many of my secrets I should tell here there being a reason for online journals. The most difficult thing for me at this stage is what Netzach called 'sinking' and it's probably what might prevent me from exploring much more deeply into this, and limiting my stay. If there's something unprofessional about my approach, it's that that I am getting an awful lot of visceral satisfaction. More unprofessional - I also find I get so hot headed in sexual, not necessarily submissive situations, with a real drive to please, even without any exchange of fluids. I need to work on professional detachment, because I'm wary of putting myself in situations where I'll be used or badly handled and there are profound/serious/irresistable/moth-to-flame undertones to this.

Sex work as an act of degredation...In my case any element of degredation is masturbatory. I'm putting myself through this for my own reasons, toying with limits only on a basic level and every step more or less under my control, and it's just sexploration for me at this point. Someone compelling me into this right now, would be leagues different. precursor to the type of humiliation that i'm extremely sensitive to. This might be a dangerous thing to say, but I have a choice and I wouldn't be doing this if I wasn't having a good time.

ownedsubgal said, "...not so much like a job, but simply a perversion as it should be." For me it's a thin line.

I want to congratulate you evesdream in your openness and comfort in exploring this part of your sexuality. For me I think sex work is just as legitimate a profession as any other, maybe more so in some cases, as long as the woman does it for her own reasons and not through force or desperation. That may seem judgemental, but is not meant to be....is just I believe if it is a profession to be respected and not exploit the worker it needs to be of free will.

I have long advocated for the need to address it as a legitimate professional choice to ensure women's safety in particular. As a feminist it has been an important point to raise in the issue of women's rights and freedom of choice, and the so often heralded feminist call to support each other as women. That support means honouring a woman's choice to be a sex worker and breaking down the barriers that make it so unsafe on many levels, not judging her for her decisions.

I now am in the position of knowing a close family member has chosen this as her profession and is comfortable in asking advice and discussing points of concern with me, more so than others who she knows will judge her decision from an uninformed position. It has not been without it's problems for her, one incident seeing her almost become a statistic, but she uses her brain and instinct, even more so now, and above all she enjoys her work.

I don't think there is necessarily any harm in enjoying it (many other professions are also a joy for their workers so why should this be different) for whatever purpose as long as you are able to keep that in perspective and not allow it to become a point for exploitation....it can actually become a very powerful experience for women. Contrary to popular belief, most women who choose this profession are able to choose what they will and will not do, and with whom, especially when associated with safety and health concerns. I think more power to you evesdream, as long as you are happy, safe, and enjoying yourself go with what you want and/or need to do as part of your journey for you.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

Re: Sex work as catharsis?

I'm still a trainee in my choosen field, and I have to insist, contrary to what you said Netzach, there are a hell of a lot of horny, can only barely contain themselves men out there. It's practically an epidemic. Maybe, I'm starting out in a not-so-nice-house.

Nahhhh....it's not the House. It's the day of the week I wrote what I wrote. Today the world is full of horndog wankers. Ask me again tomorrow. LOL.

 

[Netzach]

Fuck I get a lot of visceral for-me satisfaction. I don't think that makes a person unprofessional...I think it makes a person passionate. To use the Midori example, or Cleo Dubois. Both would probably be doing SM things for free, only they realize there is a market for their skill and more than that, their passionate, involved, *personae* are a commodity as well. Yes, it's not totally unlike a small amount of celebrity with many of the same pitfalls and ups.

The way to keep it from biting you in the ass is to figure out how to keep it from biting *you* in the ass. We don't have a professional association like the AMA, our standards and ethics have to be individually created. You know what's good for you and not from the intuitive tickle in your tummy that says "bad idea" not "bad idea feels kinda good, hmm."

I get one flavor at home, and it's not bad, but it could be vanilla for all it matters to keep getting one flavor all the time. I *need* variety, spice, and diversity. I need to have a human spitoon. I need to have a footsniffer and a footstool? Is that so wrong?

 

[ownedsubgal]

...bumping this one with a smile because his path has led me here again...

 

[catalina_francisco]

...bumping this one with a smile because his path has led me here again...

OK teaser, spill!!

Catalina