Signs of progress?

[dr_mabeuse]

Anyone who's dumb enough to believe what they tell you in school about anything deserves what they get.


---Zoot

 

[NoJo]

It's interesting to read the UK's FPA (Family Planning association) repsonse to the big drop in U.S. teen pregnancies: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4020025.stm

(Britain's teenage pregnancy rate is second highest in the Western world, after Greenland).

 

[shereads]

Anyone who's dumb enough to believe what they tell you in school about anything deserves what they get.


---Zoot

You sat at the back of the classroom, didn't you?

I thought I recognized you. I didn't sit back there near the door until well into my junior year of high school. Until then, I was one of those eager hand-raisers near the front. I suffered for it, too.

 

[shereads]

It's interesting to read the UK's FPA (Family Planning association) repsonse to the big drop in U.S. teen pregnancies: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4020025.stm

(Britain's teenage pregnancy rate is second highest in the Western world, after Greenland).

Greenland? Seriously?

I never think of people in Greenland as having sex, or babies. I just think of them trying not to die from hypothermia. All twelve of them.

 

[carsonshepherd]

Greenland? Seriously?

I never think of people in Greenland as having sex, or babies. I just think of them trying not to die from hypothermia. All twelve of them.

Maybe that's why they fuck like bunnies- body heat

 

[NoJo]

You sat at the back of the classroom, didn't you?

I thought I recognized you. I didn't sit back there near the door until well into my junior year of high school. Until then, I was one of those eager hand-raisers near the front. I suffered for it, too.

I rarely raised my hand.

 

[Belegon]

I rarely raised my hand.

kinda hard to with the teacher's desk over your head?


(sorry Joe, could not let it pass. )

 

[NoJo]

One of my friends managed to raise his desk.

 

[Belegon]

One of my friends managed to raise his desk.

The whole desk? Was that in Mr. Holmes class?

 

[NoJo]

Mr Holmes, our science teacher, liked to tap his Meerschaum on the side of his desk, while waxing eloquently on innumerable singular cases of hideous murders.

(editied to try and get back on topic)

I noticed that Greenland also tops the list for teenage marijuana smoking.

 

[shereads]

Amicus -

I understand what you're driving at when you talk about the need for moral guidelines exclusive of religion, but I'm not sure there's a case to be made that sex is "immoral" under most circumstances. That isn't to say that I'm in favor of kids and teenagers writhing around in the back seats of cars, but my reasons for thinking they should abstain have nothing to do with morality and everything to do with what they're risking by doing too much, too soon. Beyond the risk of disease and unwanted pregnancy (at this point, a teenager would already be arguing that he/she will be careful), there's the likelihood that one of the most thrilling experiences in life - the step-by-step discovery of one's sexuality - will be diminished and ultimately lost.

When I think of morality apart from religion, I think of it as the means by which we avoid causing harm to each other. An adult having sex with a child is an immoral mis-use of power. Two or more consenting adults, on the other hand, can't cause any harm to each other that both aren't prepared to risk, so unless someone is seeking to harm someone else, it isn't immoral. (I don't buy the argument that society suffers some kind of degradation when the "wrong" people engage in a sexual relationship; society has the right to demand that it be done in private, and as long as no one is forced to participate, there's no deliberate harm, so no immorality. If I believed otherwise, I'd have to believe that pornography is immoral because its mere existence degrades society.)

Can sex between consenting teenagers be called "immoral," by someone who defines immorality as deliberately causing harm? I don't believe so; but more importantly, I don't think a credible argument can be made to teenagers that they shouldn't experiment with sex because it's *wrong.* Kids always counter statements like "It's wrong," or "because I said so" with the unanswerable question, "Why?" Those who are afraid to challenge their parents openly will pretend to agree, but if they haven't followed your reasoning, the only thing to stop them from doing as they please is the fear of punishment. That's where religion came in, which brings us back where we started. Religion answered the question of "why" by promising that God would know, even if you managed to keep your sins a secret from everyone else; if God said sex was wrong outside of marriage, then it didn't matter that you were left wondering why he made the rule. You obeyed or you didn't, depending on the strength of your belief and your fear of ultimate punishment.

Without the fear of God's wrath as a reason, there need to be other reasons to abstain from behavior that your parents might never find out about. Why not the real ones? What are the reasons, other than "It's just wrong," or "it's immoral," why you believe that teenagers should postpone sex or certain types of sex until they're fully mature? Why not lay those reasons out for kids, instead of providing them with a moral prohibition that can't be logically explained?

Religion didn't need logic to enforce its rules. It had the threat of hell, even for the things you got away with as far as society was concerned. Without religion, I think society needs to rely on an honest consideration of the pros and cons when it makes rules. (I'd apply this to criminal law as well, but that's another topic.)

I write this from the perspective of someone who abstained from any and all kinds of fun until well into my college years, because of my religious upbringing and the guilt that lingered even after I had rejected the concept of hell ~ and who carried a burden of guilt into relationships for years after I no longer thought of sex as a sin.

Once I stopped accepting the argument, "Because it's wrong, and that's all you need to know," I lost faith in just about everything I'd ever been taught as a child regarding right and wrong. There was never an honest answer when I asked, "Why shouldn't I?" I had to invent my own moral guidelines, and find my own ways to eliminate unwarranted guilt as a limiting factor. I feel robbed of a moral foundation that made sense.

 

[shereads]

"Why can't women go to the stoning?"

"Because it's written! That's why."

~ The Life of Brian

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Re: Re: Signs of progress?

In Catholic Italy, premarital anal sex is a norm.

I don't know about Southern Ireland.

I believe that was also the case here in Portugal during the dictatorship of the 30-70's that wanned the separation of church and state.

Not so much these days, though. Now, anal sex is just another variety, not a way of getting to stay a virgin on a technicality.

 

[shereads]

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Sub Joe
I rarely raised my hand.
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kinda hard to with the teacher's desk over your head?

My first coffee-exhalation-onto-keyboard of the year 2005. Congratulations.

My attorney will be in touch.

 

[shereads]

Re: Re: Re: Signs of progress?

I believe that was also the case here in Portugal during the dictatorship of the 30-70's that wanned the separation of church and state.

Not so much these days, though. Now, anal sex is just another variety, not a way of getting to stay a virgin on a technicality.

The hymen, its presence or lack thereof, has probably caused more harm to young women than any other factor in nature. God only knows how many brides through the ages were cast out of their homes (or stoned to death per Old Testament guidelines) because that first fuck failed to produce blood evidence of their virginity. Imagine how much more awful it was for the ones who knew they were virgins, but just didn't happen to have intact hymens.

What's that thing for, anyway? Do other female animals have one? If there is a God, why can't human females give birth to tiny infants, like marsupials do? Why all the agony?

~ Curious & furious.

 

[Belegon]

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Sub Joe
I rarely raised my hand.
------------------------------------------------------------------------



My first coffee-exhalation-onto-keyboard of the year 2005. Congratulations.

My attorney will be in touch.

is the attorney cute? Personally, I prefer Georgia to Ally....

 

[shereads]

is the attorney cute? Personally, I prefer Georgia to Ally....

He has nose hairs so long you could braid them. If I were you, I'd settle out of court, but it's your call.

 

[Belegon]

He has nose hairs so long you could braid them. If I were you, I'd settle out of court, but it's your call.

Has he been told about Locks of Love?

 

[amicus]

Shereads...Happy New Year...it looks like you jumped back in with both feet and arms flailing...

Long ago I called a local gynecologist as asked the very question you did, the purpose of the hymen. "No discernible purpose.' was I answer I received, not hygiene, not nuthin.

And the Clitorus serves no other purpose than to provide pleasure. Imagine that!

I don't think I said that premarital sex was immoral or wrong, although most religions do. I greatly appreciate you approaching the concept of morality and ethics from a non religious viewpoint as I have tried to do.

And surely customs and traditions and rituals vary from time to time and society to society. I seek an understanding of any possible universal conclusions one can draw from an objective perusal of the subject.

I propose, for discussion, if nothing more, that a 'first experience' in sexual intercourse can be (not always) but can be a life long memory either good or bad(one would prefer good).

And at the risk of sounding Chauvinistic, I think the male possessing the female body for the very first time has both personal and social significance.

I also 'think' that a romantic sexual encounter between a male and a female who have 'love' for each other, is perhaps the most intense emotional experience a human critter can have. Thus, it should hold a place of some importance in our perception of ethics and morals, those things that are good and proper in terms of the nature of the beast (body and mind).

I don't think I have suggested anything outside reasonable consideration, but on the forum, one never knows.

I hope you Holidays were memorable...


regards....


amicus

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

My aunt is an OBGYN, she told me once that aside from the dangers of attributing "purpose" to biology, the hymen appears to work as many mucose membranes work with relation to the body and seems to (and here we get to the dangers of assuming "purpose") help prevent infection in prepubescent girls.

 

[shereads]

I hope you Holidays were memorable...

Oh god yes. You want memorable, you reunite a Baptist-raised divorced pornography-reading liberal from the big, bad city with her relatives in the Bible Belt. Memorable it was, but I'm not sure I'd call it a holiday.

And yours?

 

[EnglishWimp]

Do they know?

 

[shereads]

My aunt is an OBGYN, she told me once that aside from the dangers of attributing "purpose" to biology, the hymen appears to work as many mucose membranes work with relation to the body and seems to (and here we get to the dangers of assuming "purpose") help prevent infection in prepubescent girls.

Thanks, Joe.

So it's probably purposeless, but women have been killed for not having one. As I thought.

I know it would put your aunt's job at risk, but I vote for marsupial-style childbirth for all higher mammals. We should keep sex as it is, for recreational purposes, but babies should be of a size to be born without disturbing the mother's nap, as with kanagroos. Kangaroos also have the advantage of being able to ease their backaches by taking the kid out of the pouch now and then. This seems like too good an idea to be wasted on possums and such.

 

[shereads]

Do they know?

'

Yes, my family all know who you are.

They also know I don't go to church anymore. (In my sister's words, I am a godless liberal. I think I'm a religionless liberal, not a godless one, but Protestants don't debate the finer points.)

No, they don't know about my love of dirty stories. Neither did I until I stumbled upon Literotica and randomly chose Dr. Mabeuse's "Hard Boiled Dick" because I liked the name.

Mom's pacemaker wouldn't survive thirty seconds in Literotica.

No one in her hometown has ever had sex.

 

[EnglishWimp]

'

Yes, my family all know who you are.

They also know I don't go to church anymore. (In my sister's words, I am a godless liberal. I think I'm a religionless liberal, not a godless one, but Protestants don't debate the finer points.)

No, they don't know about my love of dirty stories. Neither did I until I stumbled upon Literotica and randomly chose Dr. Mabeuse's "Hard Boiled Dick" because I liked the name.

Mom's pacemaker wouldn't survive thirty seconds in Literotica.

No one in her hometown has ever had sex.

Well, you've a nice bombshell to drop at a lull in the conversation.

I'm sure it's ocurred to you that if you're managing to keep the secret so well, one of them might be as well?