So, How Ugly Is She? (semi-off-topic)

[SimonBrooke]

Interesting thought. I read somewhere once that "glamour" is from an (Old English?) word meaning "enchantment" or "thrall", and at one time (Middle English?) could be defined as "the appearance of beauty where there is none."

In Scots, to this day, 'glamourie' means 'magic' and 'glamour' means 'spell'; a point you could play with, if you wanted.

My theme might be expressed by the inverse of that: the (existence? presence? realization?) of beauty (of mind & soul, and of actions and relations to others) where there appears to be none.

Which is a good theme, actually.

And, as Kendo pointed out, I also need to find units of measure that both groups will understand (or define a term such as "ell" before I use it) (4.5 inches, BTW: a length of 45" of fabric is 10 ells wide).

Uhm, no. 1 ell is between 37 and 45 inches depending on where you were, and is the standard width of a piece of cloth. Before the invention of the flying shuttle, the weaver had to throw the shuttle from one side of the cloth and catch it on the other (which is quite hard work, working with your arms at full stretch all the time - flying shuttles are much easier). Obviously in places where people are taller and have longer arms an ell is greater than somewhere where they're smaller.

Here's where you've helped me to see more clearly the other horn of my dilemma. She needs to be ugly, and flat-out-irredeemably ugly at that; but she can't so ugly as to be grotesque - and she has to be likable.

For that reason, although asymmetry is an excellent idea (thanks!) I don't want to take it too far - maybe just a small bobble to the line of her nose where it was once broken, or -
- two-or-three facial moles or birthmarks, which would also emphasize her heavy freckling.

The person with whom in my life I have been most intensely in love has a very asymmetric face, as a result of a birth injury - one side of her face is essentially pushed in a bit. Her identical twin doesn't have this injury, and has a symmetrical face. I'm obviously not an objective judge, because I fell in love with the one before I met the other. But I can say for certain that asymmetry can be appreciated as beautiful. Another thing she could have is a prominent scar or birthmark on her face - these things tend to get corrected with cosmetic surgery now, but in earlier times they weren't.

Crooked teeth, and a between-teeth gap or two. Missing (or black) would be reasonable enough for the time, but might be hard for modern readers to stomach.

Would be quite common at the time, too, so not especially noticeable.

I'm figuring her bust should be modest but there, something like a B or C cup (she should have at least one redeeming physical feature, especially if it's one that is only really apparent when she's got her clothes off .

It occurs to me in reading this that a lot of beauty is in posture and movement. I appreciate that you don't want to do an 'ugly duckling' thing - that you do want her to be ugly and remain ugly. But if around everyone else she's afraid - of being hit, beaten, whatever - and so goes around crouched, head down, staying in the shadowed areas of the room; and if, when she gains confidence with him she starts to straighten up and move more freely in his presence, then you could have a situation where she's still ugly in other people's eyes while being much more attractive in his.

Related to this - could she be a social outcast for some reason? If she's scared of everyone, if everyone treats her badly, there most be some reason for it. I wonder if, perhaps, her mother might have been burned as a witch? In which case, perhaps, she might have scarring on her face as a result of trying to run into the fire?

(Women usually did prefer the short sword to the claigh mohr great sword; but even more often used the sgian dubh small dagger at close range, or poison at an even closer range .

Claidh mohr, and it depends on period. The claidh mohrs of Somerled's time were fucking enormous - over two metres long, and how the hell you were supposed to fight with them I haven't a clue. But by the fifteenth century you get one handed swords under a metre long which were called claidh mohrs (although you do still get two-handed ones). The sgian dubh by contrast is really quite small - 100mm blade, 200mm over all. In between you'd get a dirk, a weapon about 600mm long.

According to the last set of statistics I remember reading (not a strictly unimpeachable source , the average American man is 5'9", and the average American woman is 5'4". Making the (admittedly large) assumption that the difference in average heights, and in distribution of height, was similar between the modern US and medieval Scotland; we could infer that:
Five-foot-seven "was not unusual" - for women - "at that time."

this document may be useful to you; I'll need to hunt for references to highlanders being taller but check Samuel Johnson's Journey to the Western Islands of Scotland, and Thomas Pennant's Tour in Scotland

 

[floweringquince]

Which is a good theme, actually.

Thanks

The person with whom in my life I have been most intensely in love has a very asymmetric face....I can say for certain that asymmetry can be appreciated as beautiful.

You sound like both a gentleman and a very loving man, Simon; and your asymmetric Beauty sounds like a very lucky lady

(And, as I have never seen the lady in question, please regard her as outside the scope of the following remarks.)
I agree that some asymmetry can be very attractive (is anyone else as fascinated with the leftward wanderings of Stephen Fry's nose as I am? But, IMO, too much is too much. I've thought about a port-wine-stain birthmark, or even a harelip; but that's too much for me to write, much less for any poor soul out there to read.

However, I think I will give her a 2 or 3 not-too-large birthmarks, and perhaps a smallish scar near her left eyebrow.

It occurs to me in reading this that a lot of beauty is in posture and movement. I appreciate that you don't want to do an 'ugly duckling' thing - that you do want her to be ugly and remain ugly. But if around everyone else she's afraid - of being hit, beaten, whatever - and so goes around crouched, head down, staying in the shadowed areas of the room; and if, when she gains confidence with him she starts to straighten up and move more freely in his presence, then you could have a situation where she's still ugly in other people's eyes while being much more attractive in his.

I think what I want her to do is to remain basically ugly, but to reach a point where she no longer cares nearly so much about that as she had previously. My idea is that her whole life, she's been "the ugly maidservant", and in the course of the novel she finds other ways to define herself. (e.g. She's still ugly; but now she's ugly *and* the mother of the rightful heir, not to mention having it on good authority that she bakes the best Honeyed Oatcakes in the Inner Hebrides.)

And I hadn't thought of showing her new self-assurance through the way she stands and moves - thanks for the idea

Related to this - could she be a social outcast for some reason? If she's scared of everyone, if everyone treats her badly, there most be some reason for it.

She absolutely is. I'm figuring she would not be both elderly and unmarried ("a maid") in a setting where fertility and children were very highly valued, based solely on her physical unattractiveness (the sun goes down, the fire burns low - hey, they all look the same in the dark, right?

I was thinking that she might be an illegitimate child of her present Laird's father, by a woman from a clan that was defeated by his in battle. My understanding is that such er, extemporaneous concubines, and their children were often provided for by taking the mothers on as maids. If the old Laird died only fairly recently, he might have given Maisrie some security and protection (if only the very barest of those); which the new Laird (Maisrie's perhaps very resentful half-brother) doesn't want to continue - so he seizes on the opportunity to send her away, the insult to her being icing on his cake.

I was also thinking she'd never have made it if her mother died before she was 7 or so; but the mother must have been gone by the time Maisrie was 11 or 12, or she would have been able to help Maisrie come out better status- and perhaps even marriage- wise.

I wonder if, perhaps, her mother might have been burned as a witch? In which case, perhaps, she might have scarring on her face as a result of trying to run into the fire?

Another great idea, Simon

If the old Laird's wife felt somehow threatened by Maisrie's mother (or just didn't like her), she could easily have been the one to "find" evidence of witchcraft against her, and help others to find it, too. (And who's going to accuse the Lady of the Castle of perfidy? Somebody everyone already *knows* is a witch?)

Seeing such a thing happen to her mother would go a long way towards explaining both Maisrie's low social status, and her usually fulfilled expectations of poor treatment by others.

*And*, if his mother had "exposed" her mother as a witch; but his father (who was also Maisrie's father) had stepped in to save "the witch's spawn", that could be what lies at the root of the new Laird's resentment of her.

In Scots, to this day, 'glamourie' means 'magic' and 'glamour' means 'spell'; a point you could play with, if you wanted.

I will certainly play with that, thanks Simon

Since we often accuse others of what we most dislike in ourselves, and since she would have had to know a bit about witchcraft to trump up evidence against Maisrie's mother; I'm thinking that the old Laird's wife/new Laird's mother might be a very "glamourous" Lady indeed ...

(I don't think I'll give Maisrie burn scars though; as I personally find even mild burn scars really awful, and serious burn scars very hard just to even look at.)

Uhm, no. 1 ell is between 37 and 45 inches depending on where you were, and is the standard width of a piece of cloth. Before the invention of the flying shuttle, the weaver had to throw the shuttle from one side of the cloth and catch it on the other (which is quite hard work, working with your arms at full stretch all the time - flying shuttles are much easier). Obviously in places where people are taller and have longer arms an ell is greater than somewhere where they're smaller.

Claidh mohr

Yikes! That's what I get for getting lazy and going from memory - twice ;( ;(

The claidh mohrs of Somerled's time were fucking enormous - over two metres long, and how the hell you were supposed to fight with them I haven't a clue. But by the fifteenth century you get one handed swords under a metre long which were called claidh mohrs (although you do still get two-handed ones). The sgian dubh by contrast is really quite small - 100mm blade, 200mm over all. In between you'd get a dirk, a weapon about 600mm long.

Triple yikes! I forgot the dirk, too ;(

But correct me if I'm wrong here:
I had understood that women of the upper classes often trained with weapons in order to defend their homes & castles in the absence of the men.
(It being a classic scenario that if Lord A's forces were all or mostly out fighting Lord B's, Lord C would might well show up to see what could be plundered from Lord A's castle - sometimes B & C might even have connived to arrange this beforehand.
It was not unheard of, if Lord A then got news that Lord C was out marauding, for him to strike a truce with B long enough for them to combine forces against C's minimally guarded estate. But I digress

The home defense weapons ladies trained with were usually spear and short sword - the claidh mohrs being inconvenient in close quarters . Some ladies became very good with sword and spear; and some made defenses that were remarkable military accomplishments.

For personal defense, women often carried a sgian dubh, which tucks away neatly in one's sock. Not many women owned dirks. There's a joke about a dirk ruining the line and drape of one's gown in here somewhere, but the sort of open physical combat that a dirk serves best for was not an approved feminine activity.

Poison was indeed considered a women's weapon, but it has strong tactical disadvantages in armed combat

this document may be useful to you; I'll need to hunt for references to highlanders being taller but check Samuel Johnson's, and Thomas Pennant's Tour in Scotland

The first link seems to be inactive, but the Dr. Johnson link (works and) is great, thanks!

Please don't wear yourself out* searching for references: I really only meant to twit Kendo about whether he could tell the difference between a Boy Highlander and a Girl Highlander

(*If you'd like to wear yourself out , I might prevail upon you to answer a few questions:
What does the smoke from a peat fire smell like?
What does a field of blooming heather smell like, or a wet field of heather after a rain?
Does everyone really drink that much all the time, or that just what Ian Rankin would have a person think? (Okay, that last one isn't really relevant to the 15th-century Highlands, but a person wonders


Thanks again for all your help!

- Quince

 

[SimonBrooke]

Thanks
You sound like both a gentleman and a very loving man, Simon; and your asymmetric Beauty sounds like a very lucky lady

Sadly, that particular affection of mine has never been reciprocated. We're good friends, but I think that's all it will ever be.

But correct me if I'm wrong here:
I had understood that women of the upper classes often trained with weapons in order to defend their homes & castles in the absence of the men.

Pass. Simply don't know. I'm very surprised to hear women were trained in fighting at all, but you may be right.

For personal defense, women often carried a sgian dubh, which tucks away neatly in one's sock. Not many women owned dirks. There's a joke about a dirk ruining the line and drape of one's gown in here somewhere, but the sort of open physical combat that a dirk serves best for was not an approved feminine activity.

Don't forget the brooch. There's a fair few people in this period were killed with a brooch pin, and the very exaggerated pins on some ring brooches from this time were undoubtedly intended partly as weapons.

few questions:
What does the smoke from a peat fire smell like?

God, how to describe? Get yourself a bottle of Lagavullin or Laphroig. Drink it. That's what peat smoke smells like.

What does a field of blooming heather smell like, or a wet field of heather after a rain?

Surprisingly not much. Heather honey is quite fragrant, and if you actually sniff heather blossoms they do have scent, but surprisingly little. What doesn't seem to make it into non-Scots descriptions of Scotland is bluebells - which is surprising because in their season (late April) they're a much more vivid and remarkable display than the heather is later on - and more fragrant.

Does everyone really drink that much all the time, or that just what Ian Rankin would have a person think? (Okay, that last one isn't really relevant to the 15th-century Highlands, but a person wonders

People in Scotland certainly drank. Distilling was certainly practised in Scotland in the fifteenth century, and was probably widespread, meaning that spirits - whisky - was widely available and cheap. It wasn't taxed. I think you can reckon that drunkenness was common, and that many people, particularly among the rich, would often drink to excess. As, indeed, they do in Scotland to this day.