Story Discussion: September 17, 2009. "Commander Rainey" by SixtyMinuteMan

[Penelope Street]

Should Rainey be jealous of Jordan? If she really wants him and has a justifiable reason, I can see her ordering him to end that relationship- after all, if theirs is to be a short-term relationship, then every day Jordan gets is one less she gets, right?

As to the Jordan question, Rainey knows it's already over, both because she knows Jordan has shipped out and because they actually talk about it on the beach. Did that not convey in the story?

Yes, your story conveyed that just fine. It's my conveyance that was lacking! When I mentioned Rainey perhaps ending Ken's relationship with Jordan, I meant when she first learned of it- well before this story begins. I'm not saying she ought to do so or that it would have made for a better story- but if she did something like that, it might make it a bit clearer what she really wants and how much she wants it.

 

[SixtyMinuteMan]

Ah, I get it. Excuse my density.

Hmm. I'll turn that over in my head while I make changes, see what falls out.

Of the idea, I mean. Not my head. That would be weird. Not unprecedented, maybe, but weird.

 

[jacks4u]

Hey, Ken

I was just reading the other comments about your story, and it seems there are differing opinions, seemingly about the same thing:

What I don't get is exactly what happened for him to have lost rank, and get injured in the process.

Throughout the story, there are references back to this event, and so, I thought it was important, as it seems to me to further define Ken's personality, but as Penny points out:

The conversation regarding Ken's past issue seems a bit stilted, particularly the 'what you did' part. It's not as if these two naturally need to talk around this subject- except to not tell the reader what it was, which seems like so much false drama since what he did isn't all that important anyway.

But as it often is when many people voice opinion about the same thing, often those opinions differ somewhat.

I know you gave hints about it, but call me dense, I couldn't figure it out. I think it had to do with defending a vulnerable woman, and in the process he was critically injured, but did the military call that 'failure to maintain or repair'?

So, which is it? Was this 'event' a major indicator of character? what specifically happened? who were the other participants in this 'event'? or, as Penny suggests, is it really a non-issue?

Thanks, Jacks

 

[SixtyMinuteMan]

Check post #17 in this thread, my friend.

 

[jacks4u]

LOL @ /self.

My apologies. I seem to have selectively read from prior posts. Mix in a little density, Ta Da!

So, the thing with the underage hooker was an important indicator of character and personality. Not everyone would take that sort of stand and be willing to force their sense of morality. That part of the story I got.

hmmm

Jacks

 

[jacks4u]

bump bump

 

[poppy_cock]

Ken is based on me. Marie is based on my lover. The stories that I mostly made up for first one friend, then several, over many years are in some cases based on some things we did, but are all at least fictionalized, and a majority are total flights of fancy. Marie didn't really bang 5 strangers as told in "Wedding Party", I didn't really get it on with four guys in one day as in "Ski Trip". And, without telling too much, no one remembers a conversation absolutely verbatim even the next day, much less years later. So even stories with some basis in reality are largely fictional. These are creative writing exercises, not play-by-plays. The ones that are truly factual will be readily apparent.

As we all know, real-life hookups often occur after no more seduction than an exchange of winks and an oh-so-coy "So... ya wanna?" That's not, however, a recipe for a good story. I'm not going to be specific about which stories are true or partially true or to what degree; that would be telling. But what you're responding to here is definitely creative writing, definitely at least fictionalized.

I had no idea of the tripwires around here.

I don't know that they're tripwires as such. But I am wondering whether you're setting yourself up for problems in the future.

The Lit readership are a fickle crowd - as you've already gathered. And I see that amongst the rest of the stories you're planning to post, there'll be something to suit almost every taste. Gay male, group, erotic couplings. But that could be a problem in itself. If some of these stories are highly-embroidered versions of real-life events, is there any need for all of them to feature a character called Ken? I suspect - although I may be wrong - that you will lose a proportion of your readership when they discover that the heterosexual character they read about in 'Commander Rainey' is a gay male in the next story along. I personally don't have a problem with that, please don't misunderstand me, but I do know that some Lit readers will.

I know you're trying to build up a series - but does it need to be? You've mentioned before that many of these stories are effectively being re-written. Why not take the opportunity to build each story into something that stands alone more effectively? You could even experiment with using third person and first person (I love first person these days but for years wouldn't read anything written in first person on principle - odd principle to have, but there you go )

I dunno. I may be a lone voice in the wilderness on this one but I think that's what I might be inclined to do were I you. Others may well disagree. To be honest, I'm always a little bit turned off by a story that purports to be based on real life events, not sure why. Maybe it's the showing off element of it all - "Hey, look what I did, guys!" I think most writers incorporate elements of real life events into their stories anyway.

Hmm, I'm rambling. I'm not back-tracking on my earlier comments in any way - I really did enjoy Commander Rainey. But subsequent observations by my fellow critiquers prompted me to throw these other thoughts into the mix. Feel free to disregard them as utter twaddle.

 

[SixtyMinuteMan]

I'll give what you're saying some thought, especially as there get to be more of them. I think the cat's out of the bag now, though. Even if I change the protagonist's names, I won't be able to take back what's already out there.

One thing I will NOT do, ever, under any circumstances, is make them different stories because Ken is bisexual. That's my sexuality. Not going to hide it to cater to the prejudices of either the gay or the straight community. I don't think that's what you meant to suggest (I hope not), but either way it won't happen.

I've already given some thought to re-attributing some of the stories with different protagonists just because the first time doing something wild can be so much easier to make erotic in a story. The problem I'll run into is that them being about Marie and I is a big part of the fun for the initial target audience. I suppose I could limit the changes to names and physical descriptions, lame as that sounds.

I've tried writing in third-person. It works okay for me for some stories, but not for erotic ones. Frankly, I'm not sure what the deal is with first-person around here, but it's apparent that it's more than just a preference thing. Which honestly seems kind of silly. Like dripping scorn on sculpture because one prefers paintings. They're both perfectly valid art forms, both with much to offer. Why on earth would anyone actively hate on one?

 

[Penelope Street]

I've tried writing in third-person. It works okay for me for some stories, but not for erotic ones. Frankly, I'm not sure what the deal is with first-person around here, but it's apparent that it's more than just a preference thing.

Perspective is a fascinating topic on its own. If we want to really get into what the deal with it is, perhaps we should do so in a separate thread? I can see how discussing it much beyond what we already have could distract us from the story.

...because the first time doing something wild can be so much easier to make erotic in a story.

There's a reason we remember the first time we did something and not the hundred and first. There's also the chance we'll be changed by a new experience, and how a character changes is often the focus of a story.

So is Ken changed by his liaison with Commander Rainey? Is she?

... the moment what Ken got in trouble for was punching a guy who was in the process of renting a 12- or 13-year-old whore in southeast Asia.

I missed this. Is it actually in the story? If not, why not?

I know you're trying to build up a series - but does it need to be? You've mentioned before that many of these stories are effectively being re-written. Why not take the opportunity to build each story into something that stands alone more effectively?

Isn't this what most of us do? I suspect many of my stories are based on personal experience every bit as much as Ken's are. While there's certainly nothing wrong with writing a series, you're right, it does limit where one can take the story.

So is there a focus to Ken's series or is it mostly a sequence of unrelated sexual encounters?

 

[SixtyMinuteMan]

Yeah, there's a focus, although telling it feels like trying to guide the reader's experience. And with only five stories up, scattered throughout our lives, there's no reason for anyone to have grokked the focus yet anyway.

Dither, dither, dither.

Okay... in the very broadest, most humorously put, half-serious strokes, the stories add up to the story of two unrepentant sluts finding real love for each other. The early stuff, pre-our relationship, is all episodic, meant as glimpses into how we became who we are. Some of the "strokier" stories from our time together are entirely episodic too, and could fit anywhere chronologically. And as I said, they're heavily fictionalized or pure fiction, at best lightly rooted in reality.

I wonder if I'm making a big mistake posting these out of order. The two chapters I'm submitting today will only add to it, they're from what Marie and I refer to as "the Interregnum", a period when we separated for a while. Which will mean my submitted stories will already span about 15 years. I think of them all episodically and didn't consider this; I've just been posting various friends' personal favorites as fast as I can edit them.

Kind of figured the learning curve was going to be steep, here, but I had no idea of the direction it would take. Do I want to separate these stories, turn them into isolated things about separate characters? Or do I stick to what the people who've already read a lot of them love about them and trust that as enough go up, the broader world will like watching Marie and I develop as well? Never anticipated this.

And no, the bit of violent stupidity isn't in there. I didn't think it had a place in a story this short, it's kind of a mood kill and I did want to turn people on. Besides, I may change it entirely before the story in which it directly appears is posted. 'Ken' and I have been separate people for many years, and I want to divorce some of his history from mine as these stories become public.

Ken was changed by his relationship with the Commander, yeah, as was she. There's one more story about them coming, so I'll leave it at that, but yes.

And the fact that we're discussing this to this extent tells me that I didn't do a good job turning this into an independent story. Meaning it either needs further work or the accompaniment of other chapters.

Learning curve. Steepness. Etc.

 

[poppy_cock]

I wonder if I'm making a big mistake posting these out of order. The two chapters I'm submitting today will only add to it, they're from what Marie and I refer to as "the Interregnum", a period when we separated for a while. Which will mean my submitted stories will already span about 15 years. I think of them all episodically and didn't consider this; I've just been posting various friends' personal favorites as fast as I can edit them.

I don't know that it makes much difference to the reader at the moment - because you aren't posting these as a series. When new readers come to your work because they've read your latest offering from the New List, they'll look at your submission page and find a pile of stories listed in alphabetical order, not chronological order. The only way - at the moment - to put them into order is to give them all the same title followed by Ch. 01, Ch. 02, Ch.03 etc. Plans are afoot for we authors to be able to link stories into a series ourselves sometime soon - but not yet.

Kind of figured the learning curve was going to be steep, here, but I had no idea of the direction it would take. Do I want to separate these stories, turn them into isolated things about separate characters? Or do I stick to what the people who've already read a lot of them love about them and trust that as enough go up, the broader world will like watching Marie and I develop as well? Never anticipated this.

I know - it's definitely the downside of putting your stuff out there for comment. Just one of the reasons why my alter ego hasn't offered up a chapter for public dissection. I'm not so brave as you... But what I can tell you is that over time, you will indeed develop a loyal fanbase who will 'get it', so to speak. It takes a while - but the more you post, the more readers and voters - and people willing to stick their neck out and leave comments - you'll acquire.

And the fact that we're discussing this to this extent tells me that I didn't do a good job turning this into an independent story. Meaning it either needs further work or the accompaniment of other chapters.

Not as much work as you might think, honestly. We're being ultra picky here (because that's how this forum works). There are only a few places where extra explanation might have helped - in the main, this story works really well. And if I were you, I wouldn't fiddle with it too much. Work on the next installment instead - don't let your creativity get stifled by endless revisions of the same story. In my humble opinion, the only way to get better at writing (other than listen to constructive criticism) is to keep writing. You can always come back to this story later.

Hugs

 

[SixtyMinuteMan]

I don't know that it makes much difference to the reader at the moment - because you aren't posting these as a series. When new readers come to your work because they've read your latest offering from the New List, they'll look at your submission page and find a pile of stories listed in alphabetical order, not chronological order. The only way - at the moment - to put them into order is to give them all the same title followed by Ch. 01, Ch. 02, Ch.03 etc. Plans are afoot for we authors to be able to link stories into a series ourselves sometime soon - but not yet.

That would/will be very nice. I've been considering retitling certain stories into chapters to keep them together, which is why "Ski Trip" has a chapter number by it. Was actually thinking of retitling all my early gay explorations as chapters of "Educating Ken" just to assemble them in the same spot. The ability to link them up without that would be awesome.

I know - it's definitely the downside of putting your stuff out there for comment. Just one of the reasons why my alter ego hasn't offered up a chapter for public dissection. I'm not so brave as you...

I'm okay with the criticisms, they're helpful. Penelope especially will definitely make me a stronger writer. I was honestly expecting more criticism of my wordsmithing chops, I'm pleasantly surprised that the criticism has focused on the storytelling itself. Which may sound strange, but I'm reasonably confident that my storytelling is improving just by the effort of using it with an eye to public consumption; if the way I string words together just didn't work I think that would be harder to correct. I write a lot of dialogue and the fact that people seem to enjoy it and find some reality to it is very encouraging.

And I'd love to read your stuff, if you'd care to PM me the link.

Not as much work as you might think, honestly. We're being ultra picky here (because that's how this forum works). There are only a few places where extra explanation might have helped - in the main, this story works really well. And if I were you, I wouldn't fiddle with it too much. Work on the next installment instead - don't let your creativity get stifled by endless revisions of the same story. In my humble opinion, the only way to get better at writing (other than listen to constructive criticism) is to keep writing. You can always come back to this story later.

Hugs

Yeah, and actual writing time has been a bit hard to come by. I need to make sure I do it daily. My "cleanup and post" file has about fifty stories in it, I've spent more time editing my old uneducated self than I have writing.

I think what I'll do with "Rainey" is wait until I've gotten all the feedback I'm going to get from this thread, then go through and make the structural and grammatical changes. Maybe I'll make some creative changes, maybe not, I'm leery of making it worse by another reworking. Maybe the best use of some of this learning is in the next story, you know? We'll see.

 

[jacks4u]

And if I were you, I wouldn't fiddle with it too much. Work on the next installment instead - don't let your creativity get stifled by endless revisions of the same story.

I tend to agree with Poppy here, you have a wonderful story. It could be slightly better, but it's past the point of diminishing returns- 5% more editing is not going to get a 5% better story, and may actually spoil it slightly.

Maybe the best use of some of this learning is in the next story, you know? We'll see.

Ken, even the act of critiquing other people's stories tends to make a better writer, which is why I spend so much time doing just that


Also, I'm with you - I don't get some people's aversion toward 1st person - it's a valid tool, and produces no less valid literature

Jacks

 

[driphoney]

Poppy's idea of turning them into separate stories with different character names is a nice idea. While I don't really like to read stories that are Debby Has a Gangbang Party, Debby Gets Naughty with Her Neighbor, Debby Sucks Her Daddy, etc., all written by, soo-prise, soo-prise: DebbyinNY (boy I hope that's not a real Lit persona!) I love a serial, or inter-connected stories. If I were feeling like I was just getting a blog update on ol' Ken an' Marie, that would be boring. But, if it's a bit like visiting my favorite tv show week-after-week, then bring it on! If you pace them out and not upload them too quickly, just like tv, you'll start building a little fan base who'll stop in hoping to catch an update. Pretty soon, it'll be like Pavlov's dog, we'll all be getting a little giddy when we see SixtyMinuteMan appear in the New list! Trust me on this.

So, since you do such a good job with it, you don't need to fret it too much.

 

[Penelope Street]

And if I were you, I wouldn't fiddle with it too much. Work on the next installment instead - don't let your creativity get stifled by endless revisions of the same story.

I tend to agree with Poppy here, you have a wonderful story. It could be slightly better, but it's past the point of diminishing returns

I agree, considering your goals, this story is fine the way it is.

Boy, I hope this fits into the intention of this thread.

Is it possible you worry too much? If the host brings it up, of course it fits.

 

[driphoney]

Is it possible you worry too much? If the host brings it up, of course it fits.

Yep. I think my real name should be 'dripworry', or 'worryhoney'. 'Worrywart' is just so overused.

I shall go edit to make it less eyeroll-y!

 

[Tarakin]

Hi,

I'm into the discussion a bit late, so much has already been said, but here are two thoughts of mine:

First, I didn't understand a word of the navy-speak at the start. That's surely cause I'm German and our navy has other signs, but I didn't understand the leaves, eagles and stars, the fruit salad or the Washington in the center, to name a few. I think it's natural for insiders to speak like this, so it's okay, and I think I captured the intend (the first three meaning she has a career in front of her, and the other two are references to military decorations for courage I'd guess), but it put me out of the story before it could hook me. Maybe a bit less of those inside remarks? Like, 'she was young for being at her rank, and she would likely be very high ranking soon'? But all of that may be common knowledge in the US of course, so my comments may be invalid.

Second point is the German (I'm nitpicking now, I know). Well, in real German the dialogue wouldn't be

'"Was ist die zeit?" she asked.

"Zwei und zwanzig hundert. Sprechen sie Deutsch?"

"Nur ein bisschen."'

But:

'"Wieviel Uhr ist es?" she asked.

"Zweiundzwanzig Uhr. Sie sprechen deutsch?"

"Nicht besonders viel."'

Well, both are Americans of course and needn't speak perfect German, but I explain it anyhow:

The 'Twentytwo hundred' is typical US military language, we Germans don't use am and pm, so 13 o'clock is perfectly normal (for 1 pm). We don't mention the '00' in '22.00 Uhr' also. We say 'Zweiundzwanzig Uhr fünf' for '22.05 Uhr' (10.05 pm) though.

'Sprechen Sie deutsch?' we'd say if we ask a waiter who doesn't understand our English for example, hoping beyond hope that he does so we don't starve. 'Sie sprechen deutsch?' is stating our surprise if we are suddenly confronted with German words in foreign countries.

'Nur ein bisschen' isn't perfect either, though it does fit here if she's not fluent. 'Nicht besonders viel' is an understatement, for it shows she does speak fluently but doesn't want to brag with it.

No normal not-German reader will understand those finer points of course, but maybe you'd want to include those comments into his thoughts to show just how smart the main characters are. Maybe like:

'Nicht besonders viel,' she answered.
'Not much?' Ken translated automatically, noting that her answer was fluent.

or something like this.

Now I stop nitpicking I hope my comments do help a bit.

 

[_Lynn_]

Also, I'm with you - I don't get some people's aversion toward 1st person - it's a valid tool, and produces no less valid literature

Jacks

Of course first person can produce valid literature. I won't deny that. However, as a reader, I don't like it. That's my opinion, and my choice. Simple enough.

 

[jacks4u]

...However, as a reader, I don't like it. That's my opinion, and my choice. Simple enough.

Fair enough.

Jacks

 

[Guest]

One thing I will NOT do, ever, under any circumstances, is make them different stories because Ken is bisexual. That's my sexuality. Not going to hide it to cater to the prejudices of either the gay or the straight community. I don't think that's what you meant to suggest (I hope not), but either way it won't happen.

I've already given some thought to re-attributing some of the stories with different protagonists just because the first time doing something wild can be so much easier to make erotic in a story. The problem I'll run into is that them being about Marie and I is a big part of the fun for the initial target audience. I suppose I could limit the changes to names and physical descriptions, lame as that sounds.

I've tried writing in third-person. It works okay for me for some stories, but not for erotic ones. Frankly, I'm not sure what the deal is with first-person around here, but it's apparent that it's more than just a preference thing. Which honestly seems kind of silly. Like dripping scorn on sculpture because one prefers paintings. They're both perfectly valid art forms, both with much to offer. Why on earth would anyone actively hate on one?

What's really important here is what you yourself are hoping to accomplish here on this site at a writer. Everything above makes complete and total sense if your goal is to tell a tale based roughly on your own personal experiences.

Now, I wouldn't have any interest in doing what you are doing, because I like the writing-workshop aspect of putting stories on Lit. There is a hint of my personal life in nearly everything I've written one way or another at least conceptually. I could probably have streamed all my stories into one long epic tale. However, in doing so I'd lose a whole lot of opportunities to try different things (different pov's, a main character who isn't an author analogue, etc). To me as a writer, trying different things is interesting, and re-visiting something I've already done isn't.

 

[jacks4u]

Interesting turn in this discussion!

Me, personally, I just write stories. Perhaps the only part of me in any of them is my fantasies. With me, it has to be that way, as the voice of experience has to have the 'experience' part or it's just another voice.

But back to SixtyMinuteMan, and your wonderful story(s) - When I read a story, If I see the author in it, I'm turned off. I don't know why, and I can't explain it any better than that, but I am. I did not see the author in this story, even though you half way admitted it loosly followed your own life story. I view it as a very good work of fiction. It seems to me that with a 1st person narrator, it's much easier for the author to step into the story, as though he were a character in it.

I think you risk your stories being viewed as some sort of soap opera serials, if each one keeps the same general characters in them. If, on the other hand, you are writing a serial, and label your stories as CH. 1,2, etc... then it's expected that the characters stay the same. Personally, I don't really care much what the character's names are, as long as the story is engaging, and there aren't too many editing errors. Even discontinuities and fact mismatches are forgiven (by me any way), if the story's a good one.

The real problem here on .lit is that you can never truly know your readers, they are so diverse. That makes it hard for an author to keep the prime directive - "know your audience and write to them". We saw this with Tarakin's comments.

 

[Guest]

Of course first person can produce valid literature. I won't deny that. However, as a reader, I don't like it. That's my opinion, and my choice. Simple enough.

My biggest issue with first person is that it's so much easier to write from the first person POV. It becomes a crutch in a lot of situations, and it almost seems the more a writer uses it, the more difficulty he/she has NOT using it.