Submissive- Is it Subservience?

[BubblyBookworm]

And people can keep on treating others as inferior.



Because it is an entirely subjective concept, it is exactly that way.

Interesting theories and contrary ideas....Hmmm....

 

[Nezhul]

I won't accept hurricanes.

There.

Your analogy is incorrect.

Here it's all about your ability as a person, as a living being to fight something head on. You can not accept the hurricanes or earthquakes or even the sun - and unless you are some genious who can affect them somehow through your inventions, you would be just a stupid person to "Not Accept" them.

Not accepting other humans / their opinions is different. It's a problem on a whole different level, of a much more reasonable scope. You can DEAL with such humans. You can hurt them back and you can fight them. Even if not, you can avoid them much more easily than a hurricane over your head.

If I make counter example to yours, I could say that I won't accept the existence of that piece of paper in front of me. I can take it and rip it to shreds - it's easy as hell.

 

[Nezhul]

You don't.

There is a much better question to ask though:
What if the other guys had won the Civil War?

What would children learn at school then?

Ah, but that's beside the point. It's not about "what could have been if this or that". It's all about the state of the world that IS now. And in this world, certain options and things are available that empower people to have their opinion.

Also, even in the hypothetical world of enforced slavery, where the other guys won civil war, there would be unrest among slaves. There always was. It's not like they'd just silently accept their roles because someone said they are inferior. Just like someone else had said already, the mere fact that someone THINKS you are inferior doesn't MAKE you so, and doesn't make you believe it in your heart of hearts. All the rest is fodder and white noise. It's hugely irrelevant if the opressing person is a position of power or not.

That said, if we go down an imaginary lane, it is possible, over many generations, to shun a certain group of people enough for them to genuinely feel inferior and believe that's a natural order of things. That's been done before - with women, no less. They didn't fight that status because they didn't know it could be different. Thing is, the only thing it takes to make such status quo wobble is for there to be one successful example where things work the other way around. For this example to be known, and then suddenly all slaves start thinking if things in general could be different. In our age of information it's nigh impossible to avoid such examples from getting known.

But againd, is that even relevant? No. We are not living there now, and so we should discuss the real world, where hurricanes still can't be averted or fought, but human opinions can.

 

[cookiecat]

Yes.

If you compare two things to find out if one is less than, greater than or equal to the other, you first of all need to determine how you want to measure it.

It is widely accepted on this planet, that the value of something is the combination of its usefulness and its scarcity, the latter being merely an abstraction of the difficulty to obtain it.

The more difficult it is to obtain something and the more useful it is to have it, the higher the value.

This does not mean that you are required to measure it this way. It's just one completely legal way out of infinite ones.

I was thinking about value as you explained it here - the more difficult it is to obtain something, the more useful to have it, the higher the value. It seems to me the submissive who relishes service, who is willing to say subservience is a pleasure is the rarity.

However, as I was patting myself on the back for possible doormat qualities, I ran across this and decided I'm not a dead fish. I'm just a chick who gets off on service; I don't need to think too much more about it.

 

[danimal3378]

Just as dominant and domineering differ so to do submissive and subservient, at least that is my opinion.

 

[Primalex]

It's all about the state of the world that IS now.

No, it's the state of your perception of the world.

And in this world, certain options and things are available that empower people to have their opinion.

Which includes the opinion to believe that others are inferior.

Just because you don't live in a country where gender-specific abortion or a caste system like in India is considered normal, does not mean that it does not exist as completely functional society on this planet.

Thing is, the only thing it takes to make such status quo wobble is for there to be one successful example where things work the other way around. For this example to be known, and then suddenly all slaves start thinking if things in general could be different. In our age of information it's nigh impossible to avoid such examples from getting known.

India proves your thesis wrong.

Next.

 

[blackmohammed]

Does submission equate with subservience in all aspects of life?

I am curious to hear people's ideas.

Submission is a behavior Subservience is more of a belief.

If you are submissive you can still question or even plan against a dominant person as long as you don't confront them directly.

Subservience is a blind unquestioning action based on the belief that you need to do it in order to fulfill what you believe in.

 

[Nezhul]

No, it's the state of your perception of the world.



Which includes the opinion to believe that others are inferior.

Just because you don't live in a country where gender-specific abortion or a caste system like in India is considered normal, does not mean that it does not exist as completely functional society on this planet.



India proves your thesis wrong.

Next.

Excuse me, are YOU living in India?
More so, do you think that their way of living will "win" eventually? I don't think so.

Just because there are societies on Earth who do things another way around doesn't mean that they actually have any significance to how I live in MY country. You can keep generalizing and saying that on another planet on the other side of the universe people eat their babies if they disobey and that's TOTALLY NORMAL.
Well, OK. But if we STOP over-generalizing, you will find that your "world", the only thing that really matters to you is relatively small. Remember to remind me to start counting how many fucks I don't give about how people live in India, Africa or North Korea, when the only thing that matters is how they live in a place I do. And I don't know where you are living, but where I do - caste system and gender-specific abortions are NOT a norm. Why should I care about India? I don't. As far as my life is concerned - they don't exist, and I don't give a flying fuck about what they think is normal.

The existence of India doesn't prove me wrong. It at best proves that there are other views in different places in the world. But That in itself doesn't prove anything, just as past doesn't prove anything. Societies are always evolving, and some things that are now normal in India were normal in Europe before. We've got past it.
And also if you research that topic, India is slowly moving western way. More and more women get education, the caste boundaries while still there have become much more blurry in the past decades, and they don't bind people as much as before. If I was one to make dramatic generalizations here like you - I'd say that proves me RIGHT, India just hasn't got quite there yet.

p.s. also, drop the mean act - you are embarrassing yourself in trying too hard to come along as a cynic.

 

[cookiecat]

will you guys stop the pissing contest because you keep killing threads.

kthanx

 

[Primalex]

will you guys stop the pissing contest because you keep killing threads.

This thread was dead after the very first reply, because all was said there already. Just because humans can be insanely creative in finding ways how to ride a dead horse, does not make the horse alive.

 

[LI Kerwell]

It Depends

There are so many varieties of submissiveness that there the level of subservience would be predicated on the Domme and the sub’s desires and preferences.

For me the Domme decides how she rules so yes subservience is quite likely very complete but others may think something different.

 

[cookiecat]

This thread was dead after the very first reply, because all was said there already. Just because humans can be insanely creative in finding ways how to ride a dead horse, does not make the horse alive.

Whaaaaat? My interesting contributions were simply an exercise in futility?

Beating said horse seems more appropriate.

 

[BubblyBookworm]

Whaaaaat? My interesting contributions were simply an exercise in futility?

Beating said horse seems more appropriate.

Both of you are quite engaging!! Thank you for sharing!!

 

[cascadiabound]

This thread was dead after the very first reply, because all was said there already. Just because humans can be insanely creative in finding ways how to ride a dead horse, does not make the horse alive.

If you believed the thread was dead and of no interest why do you keep opening the thread and posting on it?

One can always say there is nothing new under the sun and sit silently. But then there would be no reason to have any forums at all.

I do not believe these discussions are excercises in futility.

 

[BubblyBookworm]

If you believed the thread was dead and of no interest why do you keep opening the thread and posting on it?

One can always say there is nothing new under the sun and sit silently. But then there would be no reason to have any forums at all.

I do not believe these discussions are excercises in futility.

I concur, you can always learn something new from the most unexpected places and unique, endeavors! Each of you brings value to the subject even when you disagree! I truly appreciate the time you have taken to respond!!

 

[Primalex]

Excuse me, are YOU living in India?
More so, do you think that their way of living will "win" eventually? I don't think so.

The universe does not care about equity.

Humans decide what is right or wrong.

Just because there are societies on Earth who do things another way around doesn't mean that they actually have any significance to how I live in MY country.

Your country is the one where it's still fairly accepted to beat up homosexuals, right?

you will find that your "world", the only thing that really matters to you is relatively small.

In my world there is, for example, a president Trump, who treats Mexicans and women as inferior and who got 62984825 votes. Or a Harvey Weinstein - he is not the argument, but that everyone (secretly) agreed the last three decades that the way he treated women was acceptable; basically even the women did. They accepted it as their fate in order to be able to pursue their goal - it's really no different to wearing a hijab.

Societies are always evolving, and some things that are now normal in India were normal in Europe before. We've got past it.

And exactly this is the problem. Societies and their norms are not a Steam achievement that you can tick off and forget then - Equality: Achieved. There is no "we've got past it". It is a constant struggle. And history is full of examples where the struggle was lost for one reason or the other.

And also if you research that topic, India is slowly moving western way. More and more women get education, the caste boundaries while still there have become much more blurry in the past decades, and they don't bind people as much as before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npjOSLCR2hE

Yes, women get better education and the crime rates against women increase, not decrease. Just because the government says they are allowed to, does not mean society agrees. Been there, done that - called Prohibition.

Did I mention that it's legal there to rape your wife of 16 years of age? It clearly shows the priorities.

Anyway - it's moving western ways, maybe. But why? Your argument is because it has no other choice, because "it's the right thing". There are 14% Muslims at the moment. Who says which direction it will move in 10 years?

Hundreds of women who grew up in a civilized Western country moved and joined Daesh / ISIS. How can this be if humans automatically gravitate towards the "right" choice?

 

[BubblyBookworm]

The universe does not care about equity.

Humans decide what is right or wrong.



Your country is the one where it's still fairly accepted to beat up homosexuals, right?



In my world there is, for example, a president Trump, who treats Mexicans and women as inferior and who got 62984825 votes. Or a Harvey Weinstein - he is not the argument, but that everyone (secretly) agreed the last three decades that the way he treated women was acceptable; basically even the women did. They accepted it as their fate in order to be able to pursue their goal - it's really no different to wearing a hijab.



And exactly this is the problem. Societies and their norms are not a Steam achievement that you can tick off and forget then - Equality: Achieved. There is no "we've got past it". It is a constant struggle. And history is full of examples where the struggle was lost for one reason or the other.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npjOSLCR2hE

Yes, women get better education and the crime rates against women increase, not decrease. Just because the government says they are allowed to, does not mean society agrees. Been there, done that - called Prohibition.

Did I mention that it's legal there to rape your wife of 16 years of age? It clearly shows the priorities.

Anyway - it's moving western ways, maybe. But why? Your argument is because it has no other choice, because "it's the right thing". There are 14% Muslims at the moment. Who says which direction it will move in 10 years?

This discussion took a new turn!!

 

[Pantyboy74]

This discussion took a new turn!!

More like a wrong turn

 

[Blue]

And exactly this is the problem. Societies and their norms are not a Steam achievement that you can tick off and forget then - Equality: Achieved. There is no "we've got past it"

 

[Nezhul]

Your country is the one where it's still fairly accepted to beat up homosexuals, right?

No. Only by bears who walk our streets, but then again they just beat every one of us, regularly.

And exactly this is the problem. Societies and their norms are not a Steam achievement that you can tick off and forget then - Equality: Achieved. There is no "we've got past it". It is a constant struggle. And history is full of examples where the struggle was lost for one reason or the other.

Don't concentrate on what was before or may happen in the future. Think of here and now. THink of your surroundings.

Yes, there are many examples on that planet of inequality that is accepted by societies there. But what matters is what's accepted or not in the environment you are living in currently.
This entire issue started with you saying that no one can decide that he/she's inferior to somebody on their own. That if someone else thinks you are inferior - that means YOU ARE.
And maybe that's true in some parts of the world. But we here are representing a quite limited circle of western countries, mostly, and it'd be quite pointless to generalize and account for everything that happens all around the world. No. In OUR societies no one can decide that I'm inferior to someone else based on my gender or other things.

Hundreds of women who grew up in a civilized Western country moved and joined Daesh / ISIS. How can this be if humans automatically gravitate towards the "right" choice?

And hundreds of MILLIONS didn't.
Humans are diverse. The existence of deviations doesn't mean the norm's not there. The existence of women who go into ISIS doesn't mean that this ideology is just as attractive for humans as the next one. It isn't, by a huge margin.
And don't forget how many muslim women AND MEN were running in the other direction.

Extrapolating your example, There are people who think committing rape is OK. People who think that violence is OK. It doesn't make those cases proof that those acts are ACTUALLY reasonable, and that's pretty much what you are arguing for here.

 

[Primalex]

Damn. I stand corrected.