subs & sexual abuse

[wolf2002]

What's the connection between childhood sexual abuse and the urge to submit?

Over time I have had some encounters with submissive girls who turn out to have a history of sexual abuse... sometimes they even seem to want to 'revive' the events, be abused, treated as a slut, raped etc..

Is there a psychological explanation?

 

[catalina_francisco]

Hmm, you picking up my vibes? Was just wondering how you were a couple of days back and was going to PM later this week. On topic now, not sure there is a connection, or a strong one. There seem to be just as many people in the vanilla pool who have suffered childhood abuse...sad fact of our life and times. Perhaps it answers a need in some, though I am not sure that is the root of their submission as much as a positive side effect.

Catalina

 

[jadefirefly]

I posted with a similar question some 7 or 8 months back, and was told by some that while they didn't see it as a cause of their submission, being able to act out those activities helped them own what happened to them and move past it without fearing it anymore.

At the time that I posted that, I didn't really understand how that would help, but I think I have a better understanding of it now.

I certainly don't think that I am who I am because some fuckhead gave a teenaged girl too much to drink and did some nasty ass shit to her. I do think that I am who I am right now, though, because a 20-something finally stepped up and refused to be afraid of an act, solely because of it's prior connotations.

Did that make any sense, or I seriously need to get some sleep?

 

[charmed1]

I posted with a similar question some 7 or 8 months back, and was told by some that while they didn't see it as a cause of their submission, being able to act out those activities helped them own what happened to them and move past it without fearing it anymore.

At the time that I posted that, I didn't really understand how that would help, but I think I have a better understanding of it now.

I certainly don't think that I am who I am because some fuckhead gave a teenaged girl too much to drink and did some nasty ass shit to her. I do think that I am who I am right now, though, because a 20-something finally stepped up and refused to be afraid of an act, solely because of it's prior connotations.

Did that make any sense, or I seriously need to get some sleep?

Made perfect sense to me. I was thinking something along those lines....You just worded it way better than I could have.

 

[wolf2002]

Hmm, you picking up my vibes?

Call it animal instinct

and thanks for your concern....

 

[wolf2002]

Did that make any sense, or I seriously need to get some sleep?

It makes perfect sense, could you perhaps post the link to your prior thread?

The person who answered you implied some therapeutical reason to 'revive' the bad events of the past... but in my experience its more than that... its a real need, a sexual urge for the girl in question to play abusive scenes similar to her real live experiences... it just turns her on...

I am really bringing up the subject cause I feel uncomfortable in the role of abuser... which doesnt mean that I have anything against a little abuse now and then...

 

[coy_one]

I posted with a similar question some 7 or 8 months back, and was told by some that while they didn't see it as a cause of their submission, being able to act out those activities helped them own what happened to them and move past it without fearing it anymore.

At the time that I posted that, I didn't really understand how that would help, but I think I have a better understanding of it now.

I certainly don't think that I am who I am because some fuckhead gave a teenaged girl too much to drink and did some nasty ass shit to her. I do think that I am who I am right now, though, because a 20-something finally stepped up and refused to be afraid of an act, solely because of it's prior connotations.

Did that make any sense, or I seriously need to get some sleep?

This makes perfect sense to me.

Sexual abuse is traumatic and what happens is that if a person doesn't allow their mind to process it, it just eventually integrates into their lives - the trauma, which manifests into larger problems, like anxiety, eating disorders, masochistic activities such as cutting, etc, etc. I'm not saying everyone does these things - it depends upon the maturity of the person at the time, and their ability to handle stress.

When a ritual is performed, in the likeness of a past traumatic event, it may be giving the sub the opportunity to make a new association of that past event. She would be in the presence of someone that she trusts and cares about - there would be a level of control, and with that new association, the trauma of the event eventually is processed and fades, as there newer associations that kind of put the past trauma behind her so she may move forward.

 

[gingermango]

I think human psychology is too complicated to generalize too much - many subs have no history of abuse and come from loving, nurturing environments where they were given every opportunity to grow up respected and self-confident. Their urges or desires to submit have different roots than those who come from abusive backgrounds. Conversely, I know at least one abuse-survivor (not systematic abuse, but a teen-aged date-rape that left her very scarred and sexually/emotionally frightened) who has grown up to be a fantastic and utterly wonderful dominant. So there ya' go. Two sides of a very multi-faceted die.

 

[Blushing Bottom]

It is widely believed in some camps that by reliving the events later in life as a much stronger individual, the power shifts to the victim who now has it within their grasp to change or even stop the events which may have terrorized them long ago.

I having never been sexually abused as a young girl and dealt with effectively rape scenarios can not address this on a more personal level and would have to say my drive to surrender comes from a need of balance for my psyche.

d

What's the connection between childhood sexual abuse and the urge to submit?

Over time I have had some encounters with submissive girls who turn out to have a history of sexual abuse... sometimes they even seem to want to 'revive' the events, be abused, treated as a slut, raped etc..

Is there a psychological explanation?

 

[Pure]

to jade, to wolf

well said, jade! at some point the only possible victimizer is oneself, i.e., it's one's own responsibility for continuing to live under the shadow of a hurt or mistreatment.

wolf said,

What's the connection between childhood sexual abuse and the urge to submit?

Over time I have had some encounters with submissive girls who turn out to have a history of sexual abuse... sometimes they even seem to want to 'revive' the events, be abused, treated as a slut, raped etc..

Is there a psychological explanation?

Some of the explanations have been given, in terms of re enactment, which in some cases has a possible healthy motive, ie., mastery of the experience.

HOWEVER, such explanation should not obscure the more basic point, one made by ginger mango. It is *very hard* to predict outcomes for different kinds of abuse, different settings, different resiliencies.

To search for a genuine connection, one would have to look at the pool of abused persons, estimated, depending on definitions, at 25% of women and 10% of men. Looking *prospectively* one sees the variety of women's outcomes, including 'normalcy' (little SM). And likely some incline more to be domme-ish.

In terms of social science and psychology methodology, one cannot start with the group (subs) and reason backwards to alleged causes. Especially where a subgroup is looked at that turns up in drs. offices.

The case of gay persons is on point. Until the 60s, psychiatrists often tended to say homosexuality and neurosis were connected. It did not occur to them, that of course those homosexuals seeking psychiatric help will have all kinds of problems. What calls the hypothesis into question is the data from homosexuals who are leading happy lives and NOT presenting themselves for therapy.

 

[graceanne]

I asked a similar question when I first joined lit, and what I can tell you is a lot of subs were abused in some form or the other, but not all. So while it might be the reason for a good deal of us, some of use are just that way naturally.

 

[jadefirefly]

It makes perfect sense, could you perhaps post the link to your prior thread?

The person who answered you implied some therapeutical reason to 'revive' the bad events of the past... but in my experience its more than that... its a real need, a sexual urge for the girl in question to play abusive scenes similar to her real live experiences... it just turns her on...

I am really bringing up the subject cause I feel uncomfortable in the role of abuser... which doesnt mean that I have anything against a little abuse now and then...

Here's the linky you asked for.
It's bad for one's health to go back and read their own threads.... weird.

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=396386

 

[Shankara20]

To search for a genuine connection, one would have to look at the pool of abused persons, estimated, depending on definitions, at 25% of women and 10% of men.

I have seen research that places those numbers at 35% for females and 20% for males. I add this not to argue numbers, but to show how hight they might truly be.

My ex was raped by her papa starting when she was 8 and it continues till she was about 12. She worked for years after she got her degrees with adult survivors, I did some workshop assistances with her.

She enjoyed the occasional smack on the butt but could not deal with watching a woman sub to a man at a play party. As hard as she tried it was just too much like home and what she knew her kid sisters and brothers were going through with dear 'ol dad. She fully supported my movement in to BDSM, but could not go there with me. We are still friends.

There is more I want to add more to the question, and might when I recover a little from my work day. This issue is important enough for me to be clear headed before I fire off something from left field as I do on other threads from time to time.

 

[wolf2002]

Thank you all, things become a lot clearer here... from my own experiences I definitely recognize some of the 'ritualizing' coy-one mentioned...

Indeed I am not trying to generalize here, of course there are many ways that lead to submission...

I have one additional discussion item: I think early or first time sexual experiences/stimula influence one's sexuality at a later age in a great way... would that also be the case with abuse experiences...?

IOW: would certain sexual scenarios experienced during the abuse - which at that time may not have been perceived as sexual at all - later end up being a turn on?

I hope myself clear, my english is terrible this morning...


Wolf

 

[Pure]

Nice posting, Shankara

Shankara: My ex was raped by her papa starting when she was 8 and it continues till she was about 12. She worked for years after she got her degrees with adult survivors, I did some workshop assistances with her.

She enjoyed the occasional smack on the butt but could not deal with watching a woman sub to a man at a play party. As hard as she tried it was just too much like home and what she knew her kid sisters and brothers were going through with dear 'ol dad. She fully supported my movement in to BDSM, but could not go there with me. We are still friends.

P: This illustrates the point I was making, that one has to start with abused persons and follow them to various outcomes, to determine 'effects of abuse' ("causal linkage"). The outcome of *aversion* is not uncommon, IMO.

Note that this point is independent of how high the figure is, for subs who've suffered abuse. Let us say, for the sake of argument, it is 66% (2/3). (I believe this is vastly inflated, perhaps double the true figure). The figure of 66% would prove absolutely nothing about abuse causing one to become submissive. Consider the old example used by anti drug crusaders: they said, "marijuana use leads to heroin addiction [among other addictions]" the "proof" was that when you talked the *heroin addicts* almost all had smoked marijuana. As was pointed out, probably even more had had mother's milk as infants--so perhaps *that* was the cause.

The point was that you have to look at the millions of marijuana users and see the outcome. Many do NOT graduate to hard drugs; perhaps a majority, in fact.

Your last point is VERY interesting: she could not watch 'play' that involved inflicting physical pain [or, likely, humiliation either, I bet]--and the "sub" receiving that pain. IOW, the so called "sub", regardless of their abuse, could handle it and see the difference--indeed *feel* the difference. For your "ex" however, there was no difference, just as (you reported) in the case of here receiving physical pain (like whipping) from you.

In fact this raises the point: "IS there a difference?" The usual answer is to say that the play "dom" did not desire to violate consent and believed he had it. So this "dom" is not an abuser.
Yet your ex's abuser may have believed he had 'consent'--may have talked himself into that view that it's good for the child. Indeed the child *at the time* may have accepted the abuse--clearly she never went to the cops. SO, possibly the answer is "abuse" is a judgment that's in the eye of the beholder--if it looks like abuse (to your ex) then it IS abuse (*so far as she is concerned*)-- for we must assume that she'd stick to that judgment *even if* the woman being beaten stood there and said, 'I want this; I consent to it.'

 

[Shankara20]

In fact this raises the point: "IS there a difference?" The usual answer is to say that the play "dom" did not desire to violate consent and believed he had it. So this "dom" is not an abuser.
Yet your ex's abuser may have believed he had 'consent'--may have talked himself into that view that it's good for the child. Indeed the child *at the time* may have accepted the abuse--clearly she never went to the cops. SO, possibly the answer is "abuse" is a judgment that's in the eye of the beholder--if it looks like abuse (to your ex) then it IS abuse (*so far as she is concerned*)-- for we must assume that she'd stick to that judgment *even if* the woman being beaten stood there and said, 'I want this; I consent to it.'

S, S & C. They have all been debated, as they should.

The power dynamitic between adults is not the same as between adult and child. I agree in the abstract that the only person truly able to define their own victimhood is the individual, if they feel victimized by an event then they have that to deal with. And a perpetrator of “abuse” may not see their own actions as abusive. It becomes very slippery ground to stand on when we attempt to assign labels to the actions of others. I will link a check list that attempts to outline some differences between SM play and abuse. It may help.

In the parent child relationship, society is moving away from the male “ownership” model that in some cases have lead to rape, torture and murder of young children that the perpetrator thought he had a right to – I know this statement is filled with generalities but I hope it makes my point. Let me go on to say that it takes an average of 7 attempts for an abused spouse to leave an abuser (and I’m talking about physical abuse) due to dynamites too complicated to outline here is a short post. For an 8 year old to report physical abuse by a parent is a huge problem today, let alone 40 years ago. Do you know of a “sub” who had a hard time leaving a bad “Dom”? The issues are as complicated as is human psychology.

There is a helpful book about how childhood sexual abuse by a parent impacts adult relationship called “Ghosts is the bedroom” that some might find interesting.


link: SM vs Abuse

.

 

[Masters_Falcon]

Actually let me clear this up as one who has been sexually abused by my own older brother and am now a sub.

There are 3 common ways a person can react to the kind of situation I have been in.

#1(and the most common) is to have emotional problems for the rest of thier lives and turn into cold fish

#2 to block it out and move beyond it.

#3 (and this is what happened to me) your mind comes up with a way to keep from breaking and you learn to enjoy what is done to you (not who is doing it just what is being done) and eventually you crave it.

It is amazing what the mind will do to keep itself from snapping. And to turn a horrible and often times painful event into something enjoyable is often the only answer the mind can come up with.

I know some will think I am blowing smoke.. but again keep in mind I have been there and done that... and I spent many years in therapy (and studying psychology myself) to understand my need to be dominated, hurt and humiliated to gain pleasure during sex.

 

[Pure]

I hear you , MF,

You are to some extent re-living traumas in a controlled setting, and you believe the attraction to hurt comes from (is caused by) the 'old hurt.' I certainly feel a degree of that in my own case.

I'm not disputing your facts or analysis, *for yourself,* (or myself) but the larger picture is also relevant; one that you draw, yourself. There are several possible outcomes--i.e. effects of abuse--, such as, suppress the hurt and look normal, 'move beyond it.'

So, IMO, all personal analyses are skewed (no reflection on you). It's like meeting a person in a bar and s/he says, "I drink a lot because my spouse left me and took the kids. " There may be a kind of truth to that, *at least for the person.*

But in the larger picture, of all those left, some 'move on', some get depressed and don't drink, some get depressed and do drink, some go out and get laid a lot, etc. So the large pattern of cause and effect is quite different and more complex.

 

[Masters_Falcon]

OK let me clarify what I meant. I said the most COMMON responses..(not all) what I meant by that was the top three most common responses are what I listed.

I apologize if it seemed that I was lumping everyone into one of those 3 responses. I know that not everyone falls in those 3. Like I said they are just the most common ones. And yes I admit that even those who do fall into those 3 responses to that situation each differ. I was making a generalization.

LOL I don't think I could post all the possible responses to such a trauma, as I don't think you would allow a post quite that big.

But, that is niether here nor there, I should have been more clear. Again my apologies.

 

[A Desert Rose]

What's the connection between childhood sexual abuse and the urge to submit?

Over time I have had some encounters with submissive girls who turn out to have a history of sexual abuse... sometimes they even seem to want to 'revive' the events, be abused, treated as a slut, raped etc..

Is there a psychological explanation?

While I think this is true in some cases, it's not true for me. And I'm sure I've posted this answer numerous times on numerous threads, but since this is YOUR thread, I thought I'd post it again... 'cause I've always liked you.

I think there are many subs who have been abused, just as there are many subs who are overweight. (And we've had a thread about that, too.) I think in those cases, it's about a lack of self esteem, which is due, again, to abuse in their past.

But we don't all fit that pattern. I can't speak for anyone else. I just know this doesn't apply to me.

And P.S. I never read any other posts here, so I'm probably repeating what others have said. If that's the case, never mind.

 

[Masters_Falcon]

I think there are many subs who have been abused, just as there are many subs who are overweight. (And we've had a thread about that, too.) I think in those cases, it's about a lack of self esteem, which is due, again, to abuse in their past.

And pray tell Just what is wrong with being an over weight sub? I am an over wieght sub and I am quite happy with my physical form as is my Master. If I am gonna get griped at for making generalizations on why abused people are submissive, well then I will feel free to gripe about people making generalizations that all over wieght subs have a lack of self esteem. I for one do not. And I know alot more like me that again are larger submissives and are quite happy with the way they look and have very good self esteem.

I just want to know why the hell everyone can't seem to remember that up until this past century (the 20th century) overwieght women were seen as the epitome of beauty? It has only been in these later years that the epitome of beauty has shifted to women whose rib cages show and have no curves.

I will apologize now if I have offended anyone with my little rant..(and no I didn't mean to imply that skinny submissives weren't attractive, all woman are beautiful all in a different way), and yes I know it is off topic but I felt the need to say somehting about it.

(Oh and just an FYI having been abused my self esteem is fine... I do not believe it was my fault nor do I look down on myself that somethign I had no control over happened)

 

[A Desert Rose]

I don't even know who you are.

Nor do I care.

I was not speaking to you or about you. And I never made a "sweeping generalization."

Have a nice day.

 

[WriterDom]

Overweight is pretty much the norm around these parts. Got behind a man yesterday in the grocery store who was so heavy his watch almost disappeared into his fat wrist.

For every barbie doll figured women I see over 35 I bet there are 5 that would top out at over 300 pounds in the general public. Hospitals are going through remolding to accommodate all the 400 and 500+ plus patients.

Before long you'll have half of America on disability for weight related problems before they are 45.

 

[jadefirefly]

I think there are many subs who have been abused, just as there are many subs who are overweight. (And we've had a thread about that, too.) I think in those cases, it's about a lack of self esteem, which is due, again, to abuse in their past.
QUOTE]


ADR, you know me a little bit, and you know I like ya.

But this -is- a sweeping generalization, about those of us who are submissive and overweight.

You may be right in a number of cases that self esteem is an issue, but in many other cases, the self esteem issue might be a symptom, and not the cause.

Knowing you and the way you post, I know that you didn't intend for the statement to be taken in an offensive, or generalized way. The other guy/gal probably doesn't know that about you, though.

 

[gatorz]

most women who are abused as children tend to have sexual issues later in life. called "daddy issues," studies show that the situation they endure as children tend to haunt them later in life. Many times they do actually need to be abused as that was the only way they got any attention or love before. said, butalot of women are abused as children.

gatorz