Tax Time Americans, is it neccessary?

[Todd]

http://www.givemeliberty.org/features/taxes/usatoday.htm
read the full article there

Dear We The People:

MOST CITIZENS ARE NOT REQUIRED TO FILE AN INCOME TAX RETURN

THE 16TH ("INCOME TAX") AMENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION IS A FRAUD

IF YOU FILE, YOU WAIVE YOUR 5th AMENDMENT RIGHTS
These are the major points expressed in a Remonstrance, that was hand delivered to leaders of the three branches of the federal government on April 13, 2000, by a group of citizen-delegates representing all 50 states. These grievances concern alleged illegal operations of the federal income tax system and the IRS.

The Remonstrance was signed by thousands of citizens, and was delivered as part of an event sponsored by We The People Foundation for Constitutional Education, a not-for-profit corporation dedicated to research and education in matters of taxation & governance.

THE MAIN PROPOSITIONS OF THE REMONSTRANCE ARE:

1) The 16th amendment to the U.S. Constitution (the "income tax amendment") was fraudulently and illegally proclaimed to be ratified in 1913. Exhaustive legal research from both state and national archives documented conclusively that the amendment did not even come close to being legally approved by the required number of states.

The Courts have refused to hear this issue.

"[Defendant] Stahl's claim that ratification of the 16th Amendment was fraudulently certified constitutes a political question because we could not undertake independent resolution of this issue without expressing lack of respect due coordinate branches of government...."
U.S. v Stahl (1986), 792 F2d 1438

2) Filing a federal income tax return is, in fact, voluntary, because there is no statute or regulation that requires the vast majority of U.S. citizens to file and pay income taxes -- or to have taxes withheld from the money they earn.

Neither the IRS nor the Congress can cite an authorizing law or regulation.

3) Citizens cannot "voluntarily" file a federal income tax return without surrendering their 5th amendment right not to bear witness against themselves.

You can be criminally prosecuted for your "voluntary" return.

Robert Schulz, chairman of the Foundation, and Joseph Banister, a former special agent of the Criminal Investigation Division of the IRS (accompanied by a videographer) delivered copies of the Remonstrance to designated officials of the three branches.

At the White House and the Capitol, the delegates had the opportunity to explain and discuss the contents of the Remonstrance, and to ask that the government send experts representing the three branches to a conference to be held in June, where those experts could debate the tax issues with a group of researchers invited by the Foundation.

The officials agreed to the idea of having such a conference, and the Foundation scheduled the meeting for June 29th.

The officials the delegates delivered the Remonstrance to were: At the White House-Jason Furman, Senior Director and Senior Economic Advisor of the National Economic Council; at the Capitol-Dr. William Koetzle, Legislative Director for Speaker Hastert, and Keith Hennessey, Policy Director for Senate Majority Leader Lotte.

However, on June 2nd the White House reneged on the promises it made during the April 13th meeting. As with three previous conferences, the government has again refused to debate the grievances. Jason Furman told Robert Schulz, "The legality of the income tax is not a high priority item at the White House, and we will not participate in any conference on the subject."

WE HAVE NOW REACHED THE POINT WHERE THE GOVERNMENT'S EVASION MUST BE REGARDED AS AN ADMISSION.

If the government had valid counter-arguments to the Remonstrance, it should be a simple matter to clarify the law, provide the appropriate regulatory references and promptly settle the matter.Our government's repeated avoidance of these debates should speak volumes.

On this, the 224th birth celebration of our one Nation under God, the We The People Foundation offers the following facts, internet links and a challenge for each American:

Read the facts for yourself.
Judge what is truth.
Pass it on.
We hope you will join many who now believe that the time has come for our government and our nation to begin a long-overdue process of public debates concerning the economic, political and constitutional problems posed by the true legal restrictions upon our current system of taxation.

As a nation of justice and due process, we cannot tolerate a tax system, or a government, that seizes our property, sends us to prison and induces fear in our hearts -- while refusing to provide us basic proof of their legal authority, clearly written tax codes and unambiguous legal ruling on Constitutional and legal issues concerning the income tax.

We pray that you be convinced that nothing less than our freedoms, our property and our Republic are at stake. The Soul of America needs illumination. Please join us.

Your Thoughts?

 

[Guest]

And Your Point Is?

A) The "illegality" of the 16th Amendment is among the oldest and most tired of the unsustainable right-wing arguments, right up there with the Bildebergers and fluoridation of water.

B) People on this BBS seem to be able to navigate the Internet just fine, which forces one to assume that if they wish to read fact-free conspiracy drivel on right-wing websites they will be able to do so without your cutting and pasting such dross here.

C) You live in fucking Canada!

 

[Todd]

A) I forgot anytiype of thought outside of what the governement tells us to think is right wing

B) I forgot that if it doesn't come from CNN {Communist News Network} or ACLU {American Communist Lawyers Union} it has to be a lie, cause only They know the truth and we are not to have independant thought

C) Yeah I am a Canadain, but what the fried rat's rear end's bit of difference does that make. We copy every thing that the americans do anyways in our government.

D) Sorry for trying to think once in a while , I will lobobtomize myself so I can be just like you.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Just oh my freaking gawd Todd. We had this discussion.

One has to pay for one's government. Go back to your bible and read the part about rendering unto caeser. I want a police force, I want laws that make us civilized, I want a fully armed kick ass military in a state of readiness, I want museums funded by the government, I want highways, I want schools. If I want these things, I have to pay for them. That means TAXES. Income taxes, when they don't favor those able to finance tax shelters, etc. are much fairer than the old way of simple property taxes.

Render unto caeser, Todd. It's in your religion, it's not a conspiracy.

 

[Guest]

Wounded by a Devastating Comeback

Although arguing with you is a lot like flailing around in quicksand, here goes:

A) There are right-wing conspiracies, issues and ideology just as there are the same for the left wing. The virulent anti-tax effort is identified in the U.S. with the extreme right in much the same way anti-globalization is with the extreme left. It has nothing to do with anyone telling anyone what to think.

B) Your remarks here were completely nonresponsive to mine. That said, I don't watch CNN and I try to get my information from as many relatively unbiased sources as possible. The ACLU is not a news medium. As for independent thought, feel free to exhibit some and I'd be glad to discuss it with you.

C) Your being Canadian means that you don't understand U.S. laws, history or system of government. You don't pay U.S. Income Tax, so what standing do you have to complain about it? Whereas prevailing political theory may lap over the border sometimes, the Canadian government hardly copies "every thing (sic) the americans do..."

D) *Sigh* Why don't you try to think instead of cutting and pasting ridiculous opinions from conspiracy websites? You accuse mainstream media of being biased yet willingly take as gospel the rantings of disenchanted conspirators found on that bastion of truth and fairness, the Internet.

And, Todd, if you want to post opinions, yours or other peoples's, and ask for reactions, stop making it personal when you get some, or least learn to spell your insults.

 

[GuyJD]

WHY PAY TAXES?

Why should we pay taxes anyway? They tax our salaries and then our income. And if that's not enough any little money we have left, they tax the money that we spend. And for what? 14 carat gold toilet seats for the White House again? I don't think so. Homie don't play that and neither do I.

 

[jcgirl]

Well, the last time I checked, educating children, paving the roads we drive on, building the ships that take us places, the planes that fly us places, the loans for education, medical science, farmaid, flood fund, disability...etc.....etc.....etc.........cost money

 

[GuyJD]

HMMM, LET ME SEE........

Well, the last time I checked, educating children, paving the roads we drive on, building the ships that take us places, the planes that fly us places, the loans for education, medical science, farmaid, flood fund, disability...etc.....etc.....etc.........cost money

Educating Children? Many of the schools are in poor condition and the education system is in the same condition.
Roads? What roads are getting paved? Alot of the roads in Louisiana are in deplorable shape.
Ships? I'll give you that one. Considering alot of them stay docked anyway.
Planes? At least most of which are crashing, due to mechanical insufficiencies.
Education Loans? Right, the ones that the rich kids are getting now. Like the sons & daughters of our Congressmen and Senators and local officials.
Medical Science? Are we referring to the cute and cuddly rabbits and kittens that they use for medical experiments? I think I can spend my money on better things than that.
Farm Aid? That's great since they are suffering the most.

What about the homeless people in America? Why should we pay taxes so that our beloved country send the funds to other countries rather than taking care of the problems in our country? Do we not remember when Reagan traded alot of nuclear arms to Iran? The same country that took several Americans hostage just before he got into office. But the day after his last days in office, he conviently had no recognition of such a thing. I guess that was voluntary Alzeimer for him.
And by all means, let us not forget the illegal immigrants who have come here to the United States and began working at businesses that get a tax break for hiring them. Believe me, I worked with alot of them. Most of them are working in retail but speak no English. But they are not paying any income tax, we are. And our income tax money are going to them. Everytime they get a tax-free paycheck, who do you think pays those taxes for them? I'll give you 3 guesses.

[Edited by GuyJD on 02-19-2001 at 04:26 PM]

 

[Laurel]

Well, the last time I checked, educating children, paving the roads we drive on, building the ships that take us places, the planes that fly us places, the loans for education, medical science, farmaid, flood fund, disability...etc.....etc.....etc.........cost money

Exactly. You pay to play. Just read an article somewhere (forget where, I'll try to remember) about the pitiable state of the US's private prisons. Remember that whole "privatize the prison system, get it out of the hands of the Evil Government" crusade? Well, apparently, these privatized prisons are going belly-up. Another example: take a look at the attempted privatization of power here in sunny CA. Or the state of the privately-owned toll roads in my neck of the woods that are now begging for government assistance because they're losing money.

One of the many purposes of government is to pool resources so that we as a whole can accomplish things that we as individuals cannot - things that benefit us as a country. Roads, prisons, electricity, fire departments, police departments - these all improve our quality of life. However, none of these makes a 'profit', per se. The goal of a business is to make a profit. The goal of government is to take care of its people. Therefore, these responsibilities are best handled by the government.

You don't have to pay taxes. However, for one to drive on public roads, feel protected by the city police force, expect a city firetruck to show up when one's house is on fire, and send your children to public schools and be upset when one is expected to chip in a little (we have one of the lowest tax rates in the western world, btw) is a bit unreasonable, don't you think?

 

[jcgirl]

Re: HMMM, LET ME SEE........

[/B]

Educating Children? Many of the schools are in poor condition and the education system is in the same condition.
Roads? What roads are getting paved? Alot of the roads in Louisiana are in deplorable shape.
Ships? I'll give you that one. Considering alot of them stay docked anyway.
Planes? At least most of which are crashing, due to mechanical insufficiencies.
Education Loans? Right, the ones that the rich kids are getting now. Like the sons & daughters of our Congressmen and Senators and local officials.
Medical Science? Are we referring to the cute and cuddly rabbits and kittens that they use for medical experiments? I think I can spend my money on better things than that.
Farm Aid? That's great since they are suffering the most.

What about the homeless people in America? Why should we pay taxes so that our beloved country send the funds to other countries rather than taking care of the problems in our country? Do we not remember when Reagan traded alot of nuclear arms to Iran? The same country that took several Americans hostage just before he got into office. But the day after his last days in office, he conviently had no recognition of such a thing. I guess that was voluntary Alzeimer for him.
And by all means, let us not forget the illegal immigrants who have come here to the United States and began working at businesses that get a tax break for hiring them. Believe me, I worked with alot of them. Most of them are working in retail but speak no English. But they are not paying any income tax, we are. And our income tax money are going to them. Everytime they get a tax-free paycheck, who do you think pays those taxes for them? I'll give you 3 guesses.

[Edited by GuyJD on 02-19-2001 at 04:26 PM] [/B][/QUOTE]


Lots of our tax money goes towards education. Where or who do you think would educate our children if there wasnt a fund for it?

I don't know about you, but I would rather drive on a paved road, no matter how minimmally done so, than a rocky, treacherous or even dirt road. Being in Louisianna, I'd think you know what its like to get your truck stuck in the mud on a dirt road in a rain storm.

As for planes crashing, are you serious? I would not say it is "most of which" considering air travel is still infinitly safer than traveling by car. Theres actually statistics supporting that.

I went to school on education loans. My parents were far from rich, I worked my way thru college and grad school working two jobs and would never have made it if it werent for the education loans I recieved from the state and federal government.

Medical science you benefit from everyday. You remember that the next time you pop an aspirin for a headache, reach for the Tums when you have heartburn, or when you see a child walking down the street that just had one of the greatest miracles of medical science there is.......benefiting from an organ donation, surviving a disease. Hell, once upon a time the Flu was absolutely deadly, now your running off to the Doc's for antibiotics, antihistamines, decongestants, pain killers, even kleenex, just because you cant stick it out for 7 days!

The immigrants have as much right to be here as we do, unless your true blood American Indian, then your immigrant as well as I am. True there are illegals in our country, but no matter how hard the government tries they cannot catch every single one of them. Theyre here for a reason, I would imagine that most of them are here for the same reason my mother came or her parents before her.

I think some of us seem to forget that. Maybe we should all take a trip out to New York Harbor, and see Lady Liberty herself. She stands there for a reason. "Liberty Enlightening" I believe. It is one of the most universal symbols of political freedom and democracy, and has been since she was a gift in 1886. I'd assume that is what most people are looking for when they come across.

 

[Madame Pandora]

Todd does have a point here that I think is being missed...

Accountability.

Thomas Jefferson said, "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance." And Americans these days are anything but vigilant. It's too hard and there's too much to look after. But that doesn't mean when a wrong has been committed it should just be shrugged aside.

The thing is, yes, we do need taxes. Truth is, we need HUGE tax reform. We need the government to be more accountable for our tax dollars. And if we can’t hold the government accountable for such an OBVIOUS breech in the past, what will we ignore and allow them to do next time.

You don’t have to erase the current system to admit past wrongdoing. And, you don’t have to scrap it all and start over again to initiate reform. We should be able to demand more from the system we are paying for. Just like ANY person in ANY store. We are the customers of the government. When is the last time you walked into ANY government establishment and felt like a CUSTOMER? Hasn’t happened to me in my lifetime. Try explaining to an IRS agent that you pay his salary. Yeah…right.

But, much as we need taxes, it doesn't change the fact that the current tax system was passed fraudulently on the American public. And the militant system (though it has gotten better over the years) in place is ILLEGAL. The government tax system is too corrupt and has too much power.

I don't question that we need taxes. I do question that the government does not address the wrongdoing of the past. I do question that more politicians talk about "tax cuts" to shut up the average joe, instead of trying to pioneer systems that will better account for taxpayer money.

I get a statement from my bank, which details how my money is invested and spent. I'm not saying the government will ever be able to do that, but when you hear stories of money shuffling hands and subcontractors padding bills...I want to know WHY our money isn't being better accounted for. If we can have an intricate system LIKE the IRS in place, we CAN work out a system of accountability.

The system doesn't work well for the public. It works JUST ENOUGH. And it needs reform. And it needs LESS power. We are the "richest" nation in the world, but we are no longer vigilant. And, if we want to give up freedoms, we should at least be questioning and keeping our eyes open and demanding better answers from those we yield our trust to. And we should be able to look at the past and own up to wrongs committed.

MP

 

[Laurel]

Truth is, we need HUGE tax reform.

I definitely can't disagree with that! I was addressing the general idea of taxes and whether we should have to pay them, and my feeling is that nothing in this world is free. If we want to enjoy the fruits of society, we need to chip in. But we definitely need reform. Lots of it. And not just in taxes. Don't get me started!

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

There's an old saying that goes...

"the only two unavoidable parts of life are death and taxes" and for all practical purposes the saying is absolutely right.

The ideals of civil rights and individual freedom are practically meaningless without a framework of just laws that are fairly adjudicated and consistently enforced. It's a practical reality of life that this framework (which we call government) can not be maintained without money. After all, isn't government subject to the same economic forces as the rest of society? It requires human labor: People must write and pass the laws. Others must enforce them. It also requires myriad materials and technologies that go along with providing this job (buildings, computers, police cars, etc.).

The 17th century Scottish philosopher Thomas Hobbes believed that the natural state of man is entirely and absolutely free. In this state, he may kill, rape, steal, or commit any act because in the natural state there is no higher authority to make such acts impermissable and punish those that commit them.

In such a world, the only "right" that exists is the right to do whatever one wants; the strong may kill or enslave the weak. If someone wants what is yours and is strong enough to take it, it becomes his. It is only by one's strength and cunning that he may survive in a world in which there are no restraints on the individual.

Hobbes' wrote that a life lived in such a world would be "nasty, brutish, and short", and necessarily filled with great suffering for the vast majority of people.

The higher idea that human beings have by their nature "rights" to (among other things) life, liberty, property, public defense, sanitation, and public health requires the individual to surrender certain of his former rights to a government in order to have other of his rights protected. (Presumably the newly-protected rights would be regarded as more valuable than those surrendered, thus making the sacrifice worthwhile. For example, in order to have the most important right protected - the right to life - one must necessarily surrender his lesser-valued right to kill.) In this way, there is a paradox illustrated: for every right protected and guaranteed by government and for every service rendered by government, the individual must make a sacrifice of personal freedom.

To finally bring this long-winded argument back to the subject of this thread, the creation of a governmental authority responsible for protecting selected individual rights and providing numerous services to the entire public requires the surrender of our right to at least some of our property or money. There simply is no other way to provide these protections otherwise. The alternative of abolishing taxes would result in the dissolution of government followed by the ultimate Hobbesian consequence: a dog-eat-dog existence. Our lives would become "nasty, brutish, and short."

I don't like taxes, but they certainly beat that alternative.

Still, although I acknowledge the necessity of taxes to ensure enforcement of individual rights and for providence of programs that benefit the public good, I strongly disagree with the manner and degree to which we American are taxed here in the 21st century. I also disagree with many of the "rights" and programs the government uses my taxes to provide.

But that's a long-winded post for another day...

[Edited by Oliver Clozoff on 02-20-2001 at 06:14 PM]

 

[Madame Pandora]

YAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAY Ollie's Back

Who knew there were Scottish philosophers?

While I find the theory of such a universal give and take interesting, it just won’t play for me. It assumes a lack of discretion and detail.

Take, for example, the "right" to kill. We have not entirely given up the right to kill. We have given up the right to kill indiscriminately. Thus, the provisions of self-defense and temporary insanity.

So, I dispute the conclusion that accepting the necessity of taxes means we must absolutely surrender the "right" to property.

We should have to pay taxes, certainly, if we want to reap the benefits of our society. But, IMO, the government should not have as much power to enforce this "right" as they currently hold. The tax system was passed illegally and continues to maintain an "above the law" status.

We need reform, and the "gray areas" need to be made a little more black and white. Unfortunately, with the overwhelming challenges facing our little republic, the habit of putting a band-aid on things and just making do is the rule rather than the exception.

Regardless of the practicality of such needs, the fact remains that a fraud was perpetrated against the American public which has never been admitted openly. Not the first, not the last, and probably not the worst, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t retain a comfortable amount of outrage about it. I really believe that continuing debate at least keeps mistakes from being repeated.

Basically…my philosophy (though not Scottish) boils down to this:

Pass illegal taxes on me once, shame on you – pass them twice…shame on me ;-)

MP