Team America World Police strike again....

[BotanyBoy]

Again, back to oversimplifying very complex realities.

If you want to get real simple, it ain't 1900 anymore. Isolationism worked out okay when most people still got around on foot and horseback, it took nearly a week to get across the Atlantic & the telephone was the new hot-shit communication device.

But times have changed.

I'm not suggesting isolationism....I'm suggesting not getting involved in any more internal conflicts/trying to M'uricanize Abdul. It hasn't worked for the better part of 2000 fucking years bro....guess what? Ain't going to work this time and I bet the farm nothing but cluster fuck comes of fiddle fucking with Syria. The second they win they will turn around and bite...100% guaranteed.

Contrary to your "the Multinationals Rule EVERYTHING" perspective,

LOL hey why don't you make some more shit up and then ascribe it to me?? Think you can do more of that? I'm not sure if you can....but if you try extra extra hard!!

nation states do have interests beyond their own borders. And the more power a given nation state has (minor power v. great power v. superpower), the more interests it has beyond it's own borders.

Now, the Levant & Mesopotamia are an area of global strategic interest. That's a fact whether you like it or not.

WHY?

I've asked vette, ish, all sorts of folks why and not a fucking one of them could answer....what is the strategic interest in that shit hole and why the FUCK haven't we attained it after trillions spent, thousands killed and decades fucking about??

Clear the god damn objective and control that fucker or get the fuck out already. The whole "we don't REALLY want to control it but....we want to put our puppet into control it for us." bit has been mega fucking fail of the highest caliber. The enemy of my enemy is only my friend so long as that enemy remains....as soon as the rebels win guess who they will turn their AK's on and scream Admiral Akbar at?

The USoA just throwing up it's hands and walking away so the regional players can do whatever is a piss poor way to be able to influence events in an area of global strategic interest, so like it or not there needs to be some way to stay engaged and yet limit potential exposure & liability.

What exposure? What liability?

If you have a better suggestion (and isolationism don't count), by all means, lets hear it.

We got 2 options....we actually use our military. No more fucking around...gloves off, everyone absolutely complies with our will or they fucking die wholesale style. We seize resources, capitalize and "civilize" those fucking savages.

Or

We save thousands of American kids, trillions of dollars and just let them do their own fighting....deal with whoever is left standing. And if things get out of control we send our BITCHES, aka Israel, in to handle the situation. No need to give Halliburton 500 billion a year to park their trucks in the desert, we already built the most powerful military in the region....then paid them...then paid them more..time for the fuckers to earn their keep and patrol their block, responsibility of having the biggest stick in the hood and all.

 

[1sickbastard]

I'm not suggesting isolationism....I'm suggesting not getting involved in any more internal conflicts/trying to M'uricanize Abdul. It hasn't worked for the better part of 2000 fucking years bro....guess what? Ain't going to work this time and I bet the farm nothing but cluster fuck comes of fiddle fucking with Syria. The second they win they will turn around and bite...100% guaranteed.
Maybe the goal here is to keep any side from "winning" by making sure the cluster fuck stays fucked. Didja ever think about that?


LOL hey why don't you make some more shit up and then ascribe it to me?? Think you can do more of that? I'm not sure if you can....but if you try extra extra hard!!
From this thread alone:
Maybe because of statements like "Other than that this looks like another potential 10 year Halliburton gravy train....." and "Getting someone with the right connections....PAAAAAIIIIID like there is no tomorrow," or (from this post) "No need to give Halliburton 500 billion a year to park their trucks in the desert."

Maybe I got the wrong impression.
If you weren't referring to corporate payoff driving policy, please explain what you meant.
And if I'm off base, I'll admit I was wrong & apologize.

WHY?

I've asked vette, ish, all sorts of folks why and not a fucking one of them could answer....what is the strategic interest in that shit hole and why the FUCK haven't we attained it after trillions spent, thousands killed and decades fucking about??
Several reasons:
The Suez Canal is adjacent to the Levant. If you don't consider the Suez to be a strategic point, then I'm going to wonder what you do consider strategic.
The Levant itself has been THE land route for moving goods, people & armies since before recorded history. Maybe not as big a factor anymore, but it's still a factor.
Oil. Modern economy needs energy to function and Mesopotamia has proven reserves as well as bordering countries with more proven reserves.
The Trans-Caucasus borders the northern reaches of Mesopotamia, which is itself a strategic point.
The Levant is also the so-called "Holy Land". That means the region is culturally significant to the devout of the Abrahamic religions. While itself is not a strategic factor in geopolitical terms, discounting the effect of who controls what areas is nothing short of foolish.

Between the Levant & Mesopotamia, the combined area encompasses large oil reserves, large reserves of freshwater, a large population, and borders the Black Sea, the Eastern Mediterranean, the Red Sea & the Persian Gulf, as well as the Suez Canal & the Trans-Caucasus and numerous overland routes.

And if you've not the basic understanding of geopolitics & being able to read a map to figure this out, I'll feel entirely justified in questioning your ability to think in strategic terms.



Clear the god damn objective and control that fucker or get the fuck out already. The whole "we don't REALLY want to control it but....we want to put our puppet into control it for us." bit has been mega fucking fail of the highest caliber. The enemy of my enemy is only my friend so long as that enemy remains....as soon as the rebels win guess who they will turn their AK's on and scream Admiral Akbar at?
Again with the oversimplification. If massive military involvement was going to work, it would have done so during Gulf 2; Bushy's boogaloo. Regardless how ill-advised that disaster may have been, the current situation still has to be dealt with. Like it or not, the US cannot just say fuck it and walk away as you've been advocating. If this were central Africa or central Asia (like Kazakhstan) it wouldn't even be a discussion because those areas have little to no strategic value.



What exposure? What liability?
US military personal getting killed. That's a pretty big liability.


We got 2 options....we actually use our military. No more fucking around...gloves off, everyone absolutely complies with our will or they fucking die wholesale style. We seize resources, capitalize and "civilize" those fucking savages.

Or

We save thousands of American kids, trillions of dollars and just let them do their own fighting....deal with whoever is left standing. And if things get out of control we send our BITCHES, aka Israel, in to handle the situation. No need to give Halliburton 500 billion a year to park their trucks in the desert, we already built the most powerful military in the region....then paid them...then paid them more..time for the fuckers to earn their keep and patrol their block, responsibility of having the biggest stick in the hood and all.

Bulllshit. There are always more than two options unless one is making uninformed assumptions. The people who rise to national leadership are rarely fools or idiots. The information they get about international situations is, as a rule, far, far better than the average citizen but still not perfect. Every choice made is going to screw someone over, probably going to get people killed (unless that nation is a third or fourth tier like Iceland or Mauritius) Very often, the decisions made are the least shitty on a list of craptastic options, based on imperfect information and an imperfect understanding of the situation. Any decision, action or inaction is going to have unintended consequences.

So training groups of moderate Islamists may not be viable to you, but obviously, your "Kill'em all" or "Fuck it, let's just leave" options aren't considered viable either, at least by the professionals whose business it is to come up with options.

But maybe you're right. If you're so wise in the ways of the world, why aren't you working as one of those professionals whose business it is to produce policy options?

 

[Beco]

America's compulsion to avoid sensible energy like nuke plants that don't take 20 years of permit process and drilling for our own oil. I'm convinced the military industrial complex is behind our retarded energy decisions.

There is a reason, thats for sure....I say, let it play out, dont interfere.

 

[queerywhiner]

Hell they don't even have to Muslim for them Rob! Remember busybody's old Brown BAD White GOOD avatars?

#thatracistlivesoniggy

 

[BotanyBoy]

Maybe the goal here is to keep any side from "winning" by making sure the cluster fuck stays fucked. Didja ever think about that?

If you weren't referring to corporate payoff driving policy, please explain what you meant.

Nope, never considered that.

I'm asking if it's NOT a corporate interest driving this then what is? So far they are the only ones getting a bottom line in all this money wise. And money drives policy...it drives it fuckin' hard.

I don't buy your strategic value as a reason...keep reading to find out why.

The Suez Canal is adjacent to the Levant.

The Levant itself has been THE land route for moving goods, people & armies since before recorded history.

Maybe not as big a factor anymore, but it's still a factor.

And we don't fucking need any of that....our power isn't projected from the back of a chariot. 2 Wars and we didn't didn't use any of it for shit, still whipped that ass so bad they had to restrain us so it didn't seem like committing a war crime. That's how OP the US is. Ok the canal saves time but still don't really need it, park a carrier group in the gulf...region occupied bro.

Oil. Modern economy needs energy to function and Mesopotamia has proven reserves as well as bordering countries with more proven reserves.
The Trans-Caucasus borders the northern reaches of Mesopotamia, which is itself a strategic point.

If it's about oil then where the fuck is it?

We didn't go in there and get oil....or any natural resources....that would make sense and I wouldn't be asking what the bottom line was.

The Levant is also the so-called "Holy Land". That means the region is culturally significant to the devout of the Abrahamic religions. While itself is not a strategic factor in geopolitical terms, discounting the effect of who controls what areas is nothing short of foolish.

THERE YA GO!! Now THAT sounds like a reason that fits.....and explains the total lack of interest in the real world hard goods we just turned our nose up at (the oil).

Between the Levant & Mesopotamia, the combined area encompasses large oil reserves, large reserves of freshwater, a large population, and borders the Black Sea, the Eastern Mediterranean, the Red Sea & the Persian Gulf, as well as the Suez Canal & the Trans-Caucasus and numerous overland routes.

And if you've not the basic understanding of geopolitics & being able to read a map to figure this out, I'll feel entirely justified in questioning your ability to think in strategic terms.

Question whatever you want, still not penciling on why this is so fucking critical to the security of the USA. What does this get the US citizen, how does this make life in America better??

Not getting trade agreements.

Not taking natural resources.

Other than blowing an astro dome size pile of money every day, what the fuck are we doing there?

Like it or not, the US cannot just say fuck it and walk away as you've been advocating.

Why not?

And I'm not even really advocating that.....L2 read. I want Israel to do our policing in the region. We made them the richest and most powerful nation in the region, time for them to patrol the hood.

If this were central Africa or central Asia (like Kazakhstan) it wouldn't even be a discussion because those areas have little to no strategic value.

Says who? Central Africa is literally planet earths treasure chest of valuable minerals. But we probably wouldn't touch those either...prob just occupy at a total economic loss for decades like we have been with oil.

Because 'strategic value'

US military personal getting killed. That's a pretty big liability.

Yea don't get military killed....just put them in a coffin with wheels and tell them to roll around pointlessly for years on end in the most hostile spots filled with holy crazy we can find.

Bulllshit. There are always more than two options unless one is making uninformed assumptions. The people who rise to national leadership are rarely fools or idiots. The information they get about international situations is, as a rule, far, far better than the average citizen but still not perfect. Every choice made is going to screw someone over, probably going to get people killed (unless that nation is a third or fourth tier like Iceland or Mauritius) Very often, the decisions made are the least shitty on a list of craptastic options, based on imperfect information and an imperfect understanding of the situation. Any decision, action or inaction is going to have unintended consequences.

True true true...and maybe my perspective is fucked but I spent a good portion STILL of my adult life over there and the only thing that actually penciled was escort duty.....driving empty trucks around so contractors could burn fuel and bill the USG.

And the Christian crazy...that makes sense too. Also makes sense why we must eternally hover around and start a war with anyone who so much as looks funny at our precious Israel.

So training groups of moderate Islamists may not be viable to you, but obviously, your "Kill'em all" or "Fuck it, let's just leave" options aren't considered viable either, at least by the professionals whose business it is to come up with options.

Then why are you even bothering to discuss it since neither of us are professionals whose business it is to come up with those kinds of options?

But maybe you're right. If you're so wise in the ways of the world, why aren't you working as one of those professionals whose business it is to produce policy options?

I never claimed to be so wise....I'm just asking you to point out the bottom line for America and it's citizens here.

Where are the trade agreements? Where are the resources? What are we getting for our dollar?

A mildly valuable strategic asset to....who gives a fuck because we won't dare touch and instead jerk off in the deserts of the middle east indefinitely??

But just in case you want to wisdom check the professionals who's business it is to produce policy options who think it is in the US's best interest to continuously find any and every excuse to occupy/dump billions into whatever middle eastern shit hole they can come up with an excuse to do so with, here is a fine example...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67_FB6-gGZs

 

[1sickbastard]

Nope, never considered that.

I'm asking if it's NOT a corporate interest driving this then what is? So far they are the only ones getting a bottom line in all this money wise. And money drives policy...it drives it fuckin' hard.

I don't buy your strategic value as a reason...keep reading to find out why.



And we don't fucking need any of that....our power isn't projected from the back of a chariot. 2 Wars and we didn't didn't use any of it for shit, still whipped that ass so bad they had to restrain us so it didn't seem like committing a war crime. That's how OP the US is. Ok the canal saves time but still don't really need it, park a carrier group in the gulf...region occupied bro.



If it's about oil then where the fuck is it?

We didn't go in there and get oil....or any natural resources....that would make sense and I wouldn't be asking what the bottom line was.



THERE YA GO!! Now THAT sounds like a reason that fits.....and explains the total lack of interest in the real world hard goods we just turned our nose up at (the oil).



Question whatever you want, still not penciling on why this is so fucking critical to the security of the USA. What does this get the US citizen, how does this make life in America better??

Not getting trade agreements.

Not taking natural resources.

Other than blowing an astro dome size pile of money every day, what the fuck are we doing there?



Why not?

And I'm not even really advocating that.....L2 read. I want Israel to do our policing in the region. We made them the richest and most powerful nation in the region, time for them to patrol the hood.



Says who? Central Africa is literally planet earths treasure chest of valuable minerals. But we probably wouldn't touch those either...prob just occupy at a total economic loss for decades like we have been with oil.

Because 'strategic value'



Yea don't get military killed....just put them in a coffin with wheels and tell them to roll around pointlessly for years on end in the most hostile spots filled with holy crazy we can find.





True true true...and maybe my perspective is fucked but I spent a good portion STILL of my adult life over there and the only thing that actually penciled was escort duty.....driving empty trucks around so contractors could burn fuel and bill the USG.

And the Christian crazy...that makes sense too. Also makes sense why we must eternally hover around and start a war with anyone who so much as looks funny at our precious Israel.



Then why are you even bothering to discuss it since neither of us are professionals whose business it is to come up with those kinds of options?



I never claimed to be so wise....I'm just asking you to point out the bottom line for America and it's citizens here.

Where are the trade agreements? Where are the resources? What are we getting for our dollar?

A mildly valuable strategic asset to....who gives a fuck because we won't dare touch and instead jerk off in the deserts of the middle east indefinitely??

But just in case you want to wisdom check the professionals who's business it is to produce policy options who think it is in the US's best interest to continuously find any and every excuse to occupy/dump billions into whatever middle eastern shit hole they can come up with an excuse to do so with, here is a fine example...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67_FB6-gGZs

Well then, I think your point of why are we talking about this leads to I think we'll need to agree to disagree and let it go at that.


BTW, I loved the film Religulous, but some creatard elected official from Arkansas is not a career policy wonk working in Foggy Bottom or Langley.