The future is dense, walkable cities.

[BrightShinyGirl]

I understand the concept. You don't understand that it cannot work any more than you cannot understand that if you put a chip on every square on a checker board you cannot move one to an empty square.

You cannot relieve overcrowding by crowding people together. You cannot relieve traffic jams by transferring those individuals into mass transit which must equal the volume of space of the traffic jam. You cannot reduce pollution by increasing the use of energy in areas which usually use less energy during the day while people are at work while still having the same energy requirements in those areas already using energy during the day.

The entire concept is stupid and only gets promoted by those who cannot understand how society functions or what it's needs are. It's an attempt ot explain something very complex and intertwined with simple words and phrases which have no meaning in the larger context. All I've done is point that out. It's you and the ninnygirl who have refused to accept the fallacy inherent in the idea.

Trains and buses transport more people in less space than cars do. The number of people trapped in a typical traffic jam is tiny. It only seems like a lot because cars are so inefficient. One bus takes a dozen car off the road.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Geezus, this is the stupidest comment I've seen on here for days. People die without a fire department's protection, no one dies without mass transit. Frankly, I don't care if mass transit makes a profit or not, but it should come close to being self sustaining with user fees.

The cheaper mass transit is, the more people will use it instead of driving. Fewer people would drive if we eliminated subsidized parking and raised the gas tax to actually cover the cost of road maintenance.

 

[TrailerHitch]

The cheaper mass transit is, the more people will use it instead of driving. Fewer people would drive if we eliminated subsidized parking and raised the gas tax to actually cover the cost of road maintenance.

If it is subsidized to a greater extent then it isn't cheap at all. It just becomes another tax burden. Come on your seriously aren't this ignorant are you?

Charge EV owners a surcharge on their license equal to the gas tax paid for 15k miles a year of gas use.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

If it is subsidized to a greater extent then it isn't cheap at all. It just becomes another tax burden. Come on your seriously aren't this ignorant are you?

Charge EV owners a surcharge on their license equal to the gas tax paid for 15k miles a year of gas use.

So keep transit fees where they are now, but raise the gas tax and registration fees to cover the actual cost of road building and maintenance. I'd be fine with that.

 

[AlexBailey]

If it is subsidized to a greater extent then it isn't cheap at all. It just becomes another tax burden. Come on your seriously aren't this ignorant are you?

Charge EV owners a surcharge on their license equal to the gas tax paid for 15k miles a year of gas use.

Do you know how much you and the rest of society pend on taxes for road infrastructure? Some is funded as broad infrastructure but much is paid by fuel tax.

Less traffic lowers the annual cost of road maintenance. Less emissions provide better air quality. Closer services require lower costs for consumer and employee access.

Spending less of your money on transportation means you need less to get bay and can support other parts of the economy.

 

[Dribble]

Good article.

Pew Research is pretty sound.

The key to any social change...is not simple as this makes sense. My daughter has been asked by her high school science teacher to record how much we recycle. Cool. Our town doesn't recycle. We have no pickup. So...that means we have to take it to the drop off at Walmart...20 miles away. We have no place to store it...meaning trash would sit around. I don't live like that...thank you.

Fortunately, I can drive to Walmart on my way to dropping her off of school...it is only 5 miles out of my way...10 total. Yes, I drive my kid to school...I refuse to force her to ride a bus 3 hours a day.

So...10 miles...approx 0.4 gallon of gas. Right around $1.40 for 2 plastic containers...1 cardboard box...1 glass container...and 1 tin can. See the problem? People are willing to be more eco-friendly if:

1) it doesn't cost an arm a leg more than what we already have

2) if it is even remotely convenient.

After 2 weeks of "recycling" and her project is finished...the shit will go into the trash and our community will pick it up daily and off to the landfill it goes.

Urban development is exactly like this. If communities want something...they will do it. If they don't...you can't force a social change on people.

 

[TrailerHitch]

Do you know how much you and the rest of society pend on taxes for road infrastructure? Some is funded as broad infrastructure but much is paid by fuel tax.

Less traffic lowers the annual cost of road maintenance. Less emissions provide better air quality. Closer services require lower costs for consumer and employee access.

Spending less of your money on transportation means you need less to get bay and can support other parts of the economy.

You don't lower emissions by going EV because the current grid is powered by fossil fuels. That may change but that is the situation today.

 

[phrodeau]

You don't lower emissions by going EV because the current grid is powered by fossil fuels. That may change but that is the situation today.

Yes you do. Cars with gas engines release 100% of their emissions into the air. With current power generation, equivalent EV power is about 60% of gas engine emissions. Ramping up sustainable sources and CCS tech will shrink that percentage further.

 

[Noor]

Will we have fog, local epidemics, and sanitariums when it gets to be too much?

 

[phrodeau]

Will we have fog, local epidemics, and sanitariums when it gets to be too much?

Ebenezer Howard had it all figured out in 1898, with space for epileptics and inebriates.

I think that he left out a few things.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/Diagram_No.7_%28Howard%2C_Ebenezer%2C_To-morrow.%29.jpg/640px-Diagram_No.7_%28Howard%2C_Ebenezer%2C_To-morrow.%29.jpg

 

[VinnyVeritas]

Will we have fog, local epidemics, and sanitariums when it gets to be too much?

No. The Left hates sanitariums, they would rather let the mentally ill roam the streets with special homeless rights to squat in front of your business or take over your home if you dare leave on vacation, or maybe even a day of shopping...

The irony here is the same as a similar subject where the Left elites don't think people should be living outside of the cities because their activities rapaciously damage the earth and its natural resources and beauty but these same elites love their estates out on the same land because they are "aware" and hence better stewards of it. They can live on Walden's Pond, but we can't even fish there. Every fish is precious. Every fish is "rainbow..."

PS - It's not just the Left's elites, the rank and file believes the same thing: I canalize out here in harmony, but your presence is destructive because you don't love nature like I do.

 

[HisArpy]

Do you know how much you and the rest of society pend on taxes for road infrastructure? Some is funded as broad infrastructure but much is paid by fuel tax.

Less traffic lowers the annual cost of road maintenance. Less emissions provide better air quality. Closer services require lower costs for consumer and employee access.

Spending less of your money on transportation means you need less to get bay and can support other parts of the economy.

This is totally belied by the fact that most states like California have had to impose special taxes on EV's because they aren't paying fuel taxes.

So the "less traffic/less maintenance" argument leaves out a bunch of important stuff.

Basically this also points out that the issue isn't simple. It's very complex and has several dynamics which aren't all that obvious and which cannot be overcome or compensated for with simple ideas. Especially when the simple ideas don't consider them at all.

 

[HisArpy]

If it is subsidized to a greater extent then it isn't cheap at all. It just becomes another tax burden. Come on your seriously aren't this ignorant are you?

Charge EV owners a surcharge on their license equal to the gas tax paid for 15k miles a year of gas use.

Yes she's that ignorant. She's fastened on this hokey idea and is trying like hell to make it seem like it would work without understanding that it's not a simple thing.

The question is why. The answer is because she's a have not and if she is, then you and I need to be forced to be one too.

Typical socialist mindset.

 

[ll74]

I always laugh when people say, “capitalism failed” when referring to market collapses in the US.

You have watered it down, bastardized it, and infected it with every ideological goal you can think of… and when it finally staggers and falls from the weight of the perversions… you blame it.

Instead you should be marveling at the strength and power of it for being able to carry so much dead weight for as long as it has.

Capitalism has resulted in a few people with a shitload of money and several million teetering on the poverty line at any given moment.

It has a lot of great things, but.it does result in the consolidation of money and power for a few in the greater scheme of things.

 

[Lazaran]

This is totally belied by the fact that most states like California have had to impose special taxes on EV's because they aren't paying fuel taxes.

So the "less traffic/less maintenance" argument leaves out a bunch of important stuff.

Basically this also points out that the issue isn't simple. It's very complex and has several dynamics which aren't all that obvious and which cannot be overcome or compensated for with simple ideas. Especially when the simple ideas don't consider them at all.

<checks thread title / topic>

“The future is dense, walkable cities.”

Yep, just as I thought…

Harpy has lost the plot…again.



Harpy

 

[AlexBailey]

This is totally belied by the fact that most states like California have had to impose special taxes on EV's because they aren't paying fuel taxes.

So the "less traffic/less maintenance" argument leaves out a bunch of important stuff.

Basically this also points out that the issue isn't simple. It's very complex and has several dynamics which aren't all that obvious and which cannot be overcome or compensated for with simple ideas. Especially when the simple ideas don't consider them at all.

Those are different completely different issues. Why conflate?

There are going to need to be other ways to collect road tax besides fuel taxes.

The easiest is very unpopular because it requires digital tracking of every vehicle.

A tire tax could work and would be fair because the harder you are on tires, the harder you are on the roads.

Taxing at charging stations only collects from those using public chargers, home charging could be problematic because part of the smart grid design plan is to use limited battery capacity to help stabilize the grid…

Taxes of any kind aren’t going to be popular, but hey, no free lunch, right?

 

[Lazaran]

I always laugh when people say, “capitalism failed” when referring to market collapses in the US.

You have watered it down, bastardized it, and infected it with every ideological goal you can think of… and when it finally staggers and falls from the weight of the perversions… you blame it.

Instead you should be marveling at the strength and power of it for being able to carry so much dead weight for as long as it has.

I strongly encourage you to read Steinbeck’s “The Grapes of Wrath”, or watch John Ford’s film adaptation.

Capitalism has ALWAYS been about maximizing exploitation of people and natural resources to enrich a privileged few.

The worst thing about capitalism (imho) is it’s inherent un-sustainability and penchant for sowing animosity.

Ironically, Khrushchev had it ALMOST right:

“It should be clear to everyone that there is no means and no force which can halt this struggle of the peoples for their liberation, for it’s a great historic process, one of ever-growing and invincible power. It may be possible to prolong the dominion of one state over another for a year or two, but just as in the past the bourgeois order of things came to replace feudalism and as, now, socialism is replacing capitalism, so colonial slavery is giving place to freedom. Such are the rules of human development, and only adventurers can believe that mountains of corpses and millions of victims will delay the advent of a radiant future.”

HOWEVER, Khrushchev SEVERELY underestimated the depth of general human sociopathic tendencies that can be exploited by a few master sociopaths in a capitalist system.

Of course, that ^ happens in all systems, but "true capitalism" facilitates / encourages that behavior far more than" true socialism" or "true communism" imho.

*nods*

 

[HisArpy]

Those are different completely different issues. Why conflate?

There are going to need to be other ways to collect road tax besides fuel taxes.

The easiest is very unpopular because it requires digital tracking of every vehicle.

A tire tax could work and would be fair because the harder you are on tires, the harder you are on the roads.

Taxing at charging stations only collects from those using public chargers, home charging could be problematic because part of the smart grid design plan is to use limited battery capacity to help stabilize the grid…

Taxes of any kind aren’t going to be popular, but hey, no free lunch, right?

Everyone needs to pay attention to only 1 word in all of what you wrote.

The word "tax."

 

[AlexBailey]

Everyone needs to pay attention to only 1 word in all of what you wrote.

The word "tax."

And?

Do you propose defunding roads and infrastructure? Completely privatizing and charging tolls that include profits that would be padded enough to entice the “only the best” CEO managers?

Remember part of the whole 15minute city plan is to use the roads less- i.e. less in taxes.

 

[phrodeau]

Everyone needs to pay attention to only 1 word in all of what you wrote.

The word "tax."

Road taxes aren’t high enough. That’s why Congress had to allot $100 billion to fix them.

 

[AlexBailey]

Diversions can happen. While everyone worries about something scary or eagerly plans for imminent utopia, something else happens.

Right. How often does an idea or plan get implemented with all of the most ideal features?

The town I live in has many beneficial features of the 15 minute design, being great for many of the residents even though the concept isn’t complete or “forced” upon anyone.

For years my wife was a stay at home mom, while our kids walked to school, to friends houses, to parks and sports fields, to the library, to the theater, to after school jobs… we have two grocery stores and a farmers market within a short walk.

There’s also a modern hospital and a satellite of the county’s community college within walking distance.

Only one of my four kids bothered to get their drivers license before they turned eighteen which saved us from years of astronomical insurance premiums….

There were weeks at a time when I was the only one in the family to drive anywhere - of course @HisArpy would say that “completely defeats” the concept.

 

[Lazaran]

Apply a small road tax to every Amazon, UPS, etc, delivery.

That ^ might help in todays on demand, delivery world.

*nods*

 

[Noor]

No. The Left hates sanitariums, they would rather let the mentally ill roam the streets with special homeless rights to squat in front of your business or take over your home if you dare leave on vacation, or maybe even a day of shopping...

The irony here is the same as a similar subject where the Left elites don't think people should be living outside of the cities because their activities rapaciously damage the earth and its natural resources and beauty but these same elites love their estates out on the same land because they are "aware" and hence better stewards of it. They can live on Walden's Pond, but we can't even fish there. Every fish is precious. Every fish is "rainbow..."

PS - It's not just the Left's elites, the rank and file believes the same thing: I canalize out here in harmony, but your presence is destructive because you don't love nature like I do.

The sanitariums I was referring to are for tb patients, not mentally ill.
There used to be asylums for mentally ill but I’m not sure that has much bearing on this.
Crowded cities tend to have more tb issues.
As to the nature, most crowded major cities have some parks and great space.

 

[HisArpy]

Road taxes aren’t high enough. That’s why Congress had to allot $100 billion to fix them.

Not my fault the government wastes it's tax dollars. Nor does that speak well as to whether they will effectively manage the increased taxes you propose.

Oh, and by the way...

GO FUCK YOURSELF

 

[HisArpy]

And?

Do you propose defunding roads and infrastructure? Completely privatizing and charging tolls that include profits that would be padded enough to entice the “only the best” CEO managers?

Remember part of the whole 15minute city plan is to use the roads less- i.e. less in taxes.

Less taxes. Which means less money for those mass transit things you champion.

Unless the government decides to tax everyone, and not just drivers, to pay for it.

Great idea! Let's tax everyone MORE just so we can get cars off the road. I'm quite certain the the people will go for it. After all it means less convenience, less spendable income, less enjoyment but much much more government spending and oversight of their private lives.

Yeah, that's a winning strategy.