The Literotica rules are too vague!

[djrip]

Why are you repeating yourself? Do you think I can't 'hear you?'

I was doing a bit from Tropic Thunder... Badly!

 

[djrip]

But apart from that I agree, there's nothing morally wrong with kids sneaking a look at a playboy in a story, and the only issue is if lit will decide it fits the rules or not.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I was doing a bit from Tropic Thunder... Badly!

I got it, and chuckled.

 

[nice90sguy]

It's always one specific rule they come here to complain about. Always.

Yeah, it's definitely the most arbitrary and incomprehensible rule, I agree.

I have posted stories where kids are in sexual situations, but I wasn't dumb enough to write an explicit age, and certainly not in digits.

Barring one story I wrote a while back, when I simply forgot about the 18 rule and made the girls 16 (which is the rest of the world's 18), I haven't had any trouble, because there is clearly no attempt to stimulate the reader sexually in my depictions. I've been quite explicit about the sexual arousal felt by (very) under age people, but I've been very clear in my writing that this is a flashback, and is not meant to arouse. It works every time, and I've not been rejected for underage depictions.

That's important to me, because my stories are often psychological, and Freud was right -- a lot of shit starts in childhood, and its a bit lame to pussy-foot around the truth for me.

 

[PastMaster]

The bottom line is that in Lit land - nobody under 18 is supposed to think about, talk about, see, hear about, come into contact with, or have sex in any way shape or form. If you parse your stories with that in mind then you won't run foul of the rule.

 

[PastMaster]

On this particular issue, the rules are not vague at all. They are crystal clear, and perhaps by some people's standards Draconian. You cannot publish stories here about people under 13 having even remotely, vaguely sexual experiences. Taking a Playboy magazine to school is, by Lit standards, a sexual experience. I mean, why else do it? It's a thrill. The site doesn't allow that.

I agree the rules could be somewhat clearer on this issue. They could provide more detailed guidelines. But this decision seems perfectly consistent with the rules as they've been stated.

I see your point here - but technically the rule is that the READER shouldnt be titilated by descriptions of an underage person in any kind of sexual situation - merely reporting that a kid had taken a magazine to school does not necessarily imply any kind of sexual activity. I can think of several reasons why a kid may do this that have nothing to do with sex. Unless as part of the story the child is seen reading the magazine.

He could have done it to 'prove' his manhood. he could have done it to get in with a gang, or to try and gain favour with someone. or merely to trade for a top trump card set.

If there is no description of him actually looking at the magazine or doing anything sexual in relation to it, I personally dont see how it breaks the rules, but I dont make the rules and I dont moderate stories.

 

[SimonDoom]

The bottom line is that in Lit land - nobody under 18 is supposed to think about, talk about, see, hear about, come into contact with, or have sex in any way shape or form. If you parse your stories with that in mind then you won't run foul of the rule.

This is basically correct. It may seem overbroad and at times ridiculous, but there's an obvious logic to it from the Site's point of view: they don't want to have to be put in the position of making tough judgment calls. It's easier just to make it a very black and white, broad rule.

 

[tnhardon]

I submitted a story in which a 13 year old kid brought a Playboy magazine to school in 1991, and was caught and put in detention by a teacher. That's happened to thousands and thousands of kids over the years, including me.
There were no sexual relationships of any kind with minors in the story, no explicit references or "fantasizing" or "playing doctor" or anything else that's listed in the rules involving anyone under 18, but the story still got rejected.
It was a nostalgic piece, remembering the era before you could look at any kind of porn instantly, anywhere, just with a few clicks or taps on a screen.
I can recall so many mainstream movies and sitcom episodes with the plot device of a kid under 18 secretly reading a dirty magazine, after getting someone older to buy it for them.
The rules list on Literotica has the same problem as YouTube. They're too vague throughout. The list of rules needs to be longer and more detailed in every section, so writers know exactly what to avoid. And the moderators need to consider the larger context of the story before hitting the reject button.

As others mentioned, the rules are pretty clear on this. You are right in stating that sexuality, especially sexual curiosity, doesn’t magically appear at age 18. That said, I understand why the website is overly strict on the age issue, because people like to push the limits.

I’ve had stories rejected for small references to pre-adulthood sexuality. It happens. While we might not always like the rules, they are pretty clear on these matters.

 

[Stimtheone]

I submitted a story in which a 13 year old kid brought a Playboy magazine to school in 1991, and was caught and put in detention by a teacher. That's happened to thousands and thousands of kids over the years, including me.
There were no sexual relationships of any kind with minors in the story, no explicit references or "fantasizing" or "playing doctor" or anything else that's listed in the rules involving anyone under 18, but the story still got rejected.
It was a nostalgic piece, remembering the era before you could look at any kind of porn instantly, anywhere, just with a few clicks or taps on a screen.
I can recall so many mainstream movies and sitcom episodes with the plot device of a kid under 18 secretly reading a dirty magazine, after getting someone older to buy it for them.
The rules list on Literotica has the same problem as YouTube. They're too vague throughout. The list of rules needs to be longer and more detailed in every section, so writers know exactly what to avoid. And the moderators need to consider the larger context of the story before hitting the reject button.

I have to agree with a lot of people in this case that it's rather clear. True, that is reality and what happens in reality, but I have asked about such rules just to be sure my material was fitting... and even then I even avoid the implication of kids existing in my stories. And those rules are for other places, just because they are okay somewhere else does not mean they are okay here. Not an argument.

Honestly, in such stories there is no easy way to even imply anyone under 18 is in even a remote way connected to such activities. I write about casual sex worlds and don't even approach that because there would be a heavy implication if one considered them to be present. So my advice is to just... not.

And if you're confused about a rule, ask BEFORE.

 

[Bazzle]

As everyone else it pointing out. The rules are not vague. They are cast iron.

 

[PastMaster]

And if you're confused about a rule, ask BEFORE.

My question would be who to ask. I have sent several PM's to Laurel with questions regarding stories I have written, and other things as well and as yet have yet to receive a single reply. If you ask in the forums you get a plethora of personal opinions that mean nothing - because the only opinion that counts is Laurel's.

As everyone else it pointing out. The rules are not vague. They are cast iron.

That as a statement is perfectly true - but although the u18 rule IS cast iron - it is not always applied consistently, and that to me is the biggest problem with the rule. An author can read a story on the site, see something in that story and base their story on that criteria, and boom the story is rejected.
You could say that the original story 'slipped through the cracks' but those stories - even when reported are still left up.

 

[KeithD]

Given that this is all true, you might as well write what you want--and that you think should fly--and go ahead and submit it. There's no corporal punishment for getting it wrong. You can either correct it to acceptability or just withdraw it and submit it elsewhere.

 

[tenyari]

I submitted a story in which a 13 year old kid brought a Playboy magazine to school in 1991, and was caught and put in detention by a teacher. That's happened to thousands and thousands of kids over the years, including me.

This is literotica though, not a blogger blog or facespam page with 'all the things that happened to me as a kid'.

Why put a story like that on an erotica website if it was not meant to be erotica? Maybe you had a reason, but it's a safer rule here to assume otherwise, as a tale not meant to be erotic at all is probably better put on something like a general writer website.

I know a LOT of non-erotica gets posted here. But it's safer to presume something is erotica here until proven otherwise. And if what one puts up would be banned here if it were erotica, it's best to error on the side of caution.

In this case it's NOT the rules that are vague, but the story.

 

[KeithD]

Well, the story isn't really vague either. Playboy magazine is published to provide sexual stimulation. It doesn't lose that connection in any way by being put in a story, and if it's in the hands of a 13-year-old in the story, the connection is obvious. I personally don't care if a 13-year-old has a copy in a story, but, re Literotica rules, who does anyone think they're fooling by denying a sexual arousal connection? Why else invoke the name at all?

 

[PastMaster]

This is literotica though, not a blogger blog or facespam page with 'all the things that happened to me as a kid'.

Why put a story like that on an erotica website if it was not meant to be erotica? Maybe you had a reason, but it's a safer rule here to assume otherwise, as a tale not meant to be erotic at all is probably better put on something like a general writer website.

I know a LOT of non-erotica gets posted here. But it's safer to presume something is erotica here until proven otherwise. And if what one puts up would be banned here if it were erotica, it's best to error on the side of caution.

In this case it's NOT the rules that are vague, but the story.

Sorry but i dont agree - this to me sounded like backstory to a plot. It's incidental, and could probably be easily changed, but that wasnt the point. He or she needed a reason for the detention i am assuming and having a playboy magazine was possibly the first thing that sprang to mind- possibly from their own experience. That part of the story was never meant as a titillation it was just there. The sex and eroticism came later.
Yes you can extrapolate that a 13 year old had that magazine for sexual reasons, but surely then the titillation is happening in your own head. I mean how many degrees of separation do you need.

He could have just said he had a magazine - the reader could then have extrapolated a dirty magazine - and therefore underage again.
or he could have said he stole something from a newsagent - the reader could have extrapolated again he stole a dirty magazine and boom again underage.

Personally as I said before I dont see this as breaking the rules - there is no titillation going on regarding the magzine - but that is my opinion which counts for nothing as far as the submission rules go - it is what it is. Change playboy to Viz comic and you have your reason for detention - and although viz is an adult comic - its adult content is not sexual - unless you count RoGer Mellie saying 'Bollocks' as sex

 

[ElectricBlue]

My question would be who to ask. I have sent several PM's to Laurel with questions regarding stories I have written, and other things as well and as yet have yet to receive a single reply. If you ask in the forums you get a plethora of personal opinions that mean nothing - because the only opinion that counts is Laurel's.

Laurel's policy statement is up the top of the page, in the sticky.

 

[lovecraft68]

[No personal attacks or trolling. Heated discussions are fine, even welcome. However, personally attacking / kink-shaming a fellow author or reader is not allowed within the Author's Hangout. Threads which devolve into the exchanging of insults will be closed and repeat offenders will be given a timeout, per the AH rules.]

 

[ElectricBlue]

but surely then the titillation is happening in your own head. I mean how many degrees of separation do you need.

I think this hits on the core of it. The site's policy is protecting itself, and its writers, from those folk who might (or do) read titillation into something the author (you and I, for example) never intended. So, as many degrees of separation as can be managed.

At the end of the day, though, it's not hard to avoid the issue. I apply an "out of the house, minimum five-hundred words away" rule, and always bring any children to Laurel's attention. Other than a very early story, years ago (when I discovered the subtleties of the rule first hand), I've never had anything rejected.

 

[PastMaster]

[No personal attacks or trolling. Heated discussions are fine, even welcome. However, personally attacking / kink-shaming a fellow author or reader is not allowed within the Author's Hangout. Threads which devolve into the exchanging of insults will be closed and repeat offenders will be given a timeout, per the AH rules.]

Now LC dont sit on the fence - tell us what you really think.

 

[AlexBailey]

I have to agree with the OP about the rules being vague on this one.

I would make the case that the rules as Laurel has stated should allow for the reference to the playboy.

Hi writers!

For clarification and future reference: we do allow characters under the age of 18 in stories. What we don't allow are stories in which characters under the age of 18 are involved in sexual situations. This includes as voyeurs, as the object of a voyeur, masturbation, having sexual thoughts, and so on.

We do allow references to past activity in stories so long as it is not explicit. For example, an adult character referencing his or her history - "I lost my virginity when I was 15" - is fine. Explicit and/or salacious details are not.

These are not new rules nor have our content rules changed in many years.

As far as things slipping through: one thing to realize is that the stories are not approved by a robot or script. They are approved by human eyes, which tire easily as I age. Every story must be formatted; tags, title, and description checked; and skimmed for content issues. The daily update takes hours. If I could find a way to do all this properly with a script, I would. But in the last 12+ years, the only way to do things right is to do it by hand, so to speak.

Mistakes happen. The site has been on a huge growth streak in the past year, with readership & unique visitors up nearly 20%. This means a corresponding growth in submissions. We want to post stories to the site as quickly as possible for you authors. We also want to make sure that the updates are as top-quality as they can be - with a minimum of formatting errors and no forbidden content inadvertently posted. Thorough checking of stories and timely posting is a balance we will continue to work to get right.

I'd like to be able to read every story through, but I can't. Reading 100+ stories/novels a night - much less formatting, tagging, etc. - is just not possible. So, if while skimming I see something that sends up a red flag and further reading doesn't clarify things, I often send it back to the author. If I stopped and read through each novel we receive to check on whether an underage character is sexually active at any point, I would be even further behind than I already am.

When a story is sent back to you for any reason, this is not a final rejection and it is not meant to be taken personally. This just means we have issues or questions. You are free to resubmit either with corrections - or, if you think we're wrong, an explanation of why we're wrong in the NOTES field.

If you believe your story was rejected in error, please open the submission, respond to the rejection in the NOTES field of the submission, and hit SUBMIT. Please do not add the word EDITED to the title, as that denotes someone editing an already approved story. Since we process all edits after the new stories are posted, adding the word EDITED to a title will cause a delay in the posting of your new story. If you are submitting an edit of a rejected story, simply open the rejected form, make the changes in that form, and hit SUBMIT. Do not start a new submission.

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me anytime. PMs are faster than emails.

Thanks everybody, especially those who let me know about this thread - and have a great weekend!

From Laurel’s long post above:

We do allow references to past activity in stories so long as it is not explicit. For example, an adult character referencing his or her history - "I lost my virginity when I was 15" - is fine. Explicit and/or salacious details are not.

The OP should resubmit with an explanation and request for review , under Laurel’s instructions:

When a story is sent back to you for any reason, this is not a final rejection and it is not meant to be taken personally. This just means we have issues or questions. You are free to resubmit either with corrections - or, if you think we're wrong, an explanation of why we're wrong in the NOTES field.

Maybe Laurel would consider the reference to the playboy explicit, but she has invited authors to seek further clarification using the method above, not by trying to contact her by email or PM.

 

[lovecraft68]

Now LC dont sit on the fence - tell us what you really think.

Damn, was I being vague again?

Jokes aside your post reflects a problem the toadies here don't want to acknowledge, you have asked the person with the answer multiple times, no response, but when people ask here they're attacked. Then we get the "well her words are..." but her words are not what is seen in how these things are being accepted rejected.

Like I said, I don't think 'no sexual activity between minors is what's vague, but I understand where people will come here saying-example- the story was rejected because the character said/thought "I fooled around in 10th grade." That's not a depiction of sex, there's no details there.

The same people who when it comes to rape etc....start with the "well, we should be able to write what's real, or "well the rules are a little vague' are the same people who act like none of that applies here...the same people who say well, there needs to be some leeway with telling a story or realism don't think. IN the OP's case, the kid was disciplined for bringing a magazine to school...is that under ages sex? Is it describing what was in it and him masturbating's to it? If so, yes, that's a violation, f he's literally caught with the magazine and no further details...give me a break.

But if the consensus among the cool kids is the question shouldn't be asked here, then stop responding. Simple, right?

Except that would mean they wouldn't get to look like the brown nosing hall monitors they so long to be, not to mention they wouldn't get attention and their precious "reaction" from fellow members of the inner circle jerk.

My answer from now on will be take your story to a site well run enough to have an actual person send you a message of exactly what was wrong, and answer your questions. You may never see the story published, but you'll get the consideration and respect of a response, and won't get abused by a lynch mob of trolls.

 

[JaxRhapsody]

"I wrote a story with a 13 year old with sexual paraphenalia... the rules are vague... I'm the 664578th user with these clearly explained, rehashed issues..."

 

[ElectricBlue]

You could say that the original story 'slipped through the cracks' but those stories - even when reported are still left up.

Is that true though? My understanding is that, if a story gets reported, it gets taken down by the site and gets referred back to the author. If the author does nothing, it remains down. If the author fixes whatever the issue was, or successfully argues their case with Laurel, it goes live again.

Do you have examples of reported stories still being live, or is this urban myth?

 

[tenyari]

Does it really matter whether other people got away with something?

Basing one's conduct on whether or not the other kid got away with stealing from the cookie jar so why can't you do so as well is not the best way to go about things.

 

[PastMaster]

Is that true though? My understanding is that, if a story gets reported, it gets taken down by the site and gets referred back to the author. If the author does nothing, it remains down. If the author fixes whatever the issue was, or successfully argues their case with Laurel, it goes live again.

Do you have examples of reported stories still being live, or is this urban myth?

I most certainly do - I have reported - on several occasions BobbyBrands story Heavy Traffic (its a seres) it contains torture, snuff, rape (with no enjoyment by the victim as she ends up dead) genital mutilation. ALL of which are against site rules and NOTHING has been done about it.
Bobby Brandt has boasted about this story several times on the forums as breaching rules - and being left alone although he never named it.
As stories go - its a good story - I had to read it through to the end. but that doesnt take away the fact that it is in breach of several Lit rules, has been reported, and nothing has been done.