"To have dignity you must have no pride."

[Somme]

I love a literary man.

I also liked the 'giant prat' bit on the previous page.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I think SNP touched the crux of this (and doesn't that sound delicious?) when she mentioned the various meanings that pride can have. Like many other things - desire, humility, appetite, restfullness - it's fine in proportion, but dangerous when it becomes all-consuming. The lines between desire and consuming/ruling lust, appetite and gluttony, restfullness and sloth, are gray areas and difficult to measure.

I imagine that the quotation that began this thread - "to have dignity you must have no pride" - probably referred to pride in its negative aspect, that of being determined to appear right or superior. I think of dignity as actually having a lot to do with the gentler, more positive aspects of pride - self-esteem, self worth, a sense of one's value. When one has those, the petty aspects of pride tend to fade.

So does the desire to continue in arguments with idiots Can't say I've reached that point, but I'm working on it. I keep muttering my mother's little manta: "Never argue with a jackass. People might forget which is which."

Shanglan

 

[Couture]

Dignity is for wusses ... or is it wussi?

When someone says, "Well, I have my dignity." It's usually right after being walked on like a doormat.

That's why I'm proud to say I don't have any dignity.

I think pride is a good thing. You should take pride in yourself. You should take pride in the work you do. Pride doesn't go before a fall.

However, too proud to kiss a little ass when necessary? Too proud to drive a junker car because you can't afford any better?

It's proud that gets you in trouble and dignity is entirely overated.

 

[cantdog]

Dignity is overrated. Dignity is optional. You learn that from children. If you want to have fun with children, you have to check your dignity at the door.

Dignity is a slippery slope that leads to harder stuff, like honor.

cantdog

 

[BlackShanglan]

I feel bound to disagree. But then, I don't think dignity is about how one chooses to have fun. I think of that more as solemnity, which has a time and a place, but which is not appropriate in all settings.

Dignity, to me, is about having the inherent self-worth and faith to believe that some behaviors are beneath one. Not joyous, pleasant behaviors like mucking about in the mud with children, but petty, ugly, damaging behaviors, like quarreling publically with one's family. Oddly, I think that the height of dignity is knowing when and where to allow oneself to be a bit undignified. It's the sense of having some boundaries to one's behavior that makes indulgence in innocence pleasures such a joy.

But then I value honor as well. I find it difficult to imagine a world without ideals like honor and integrity. That one does not always measure up to them is no reason to discard them.

Shanglan

 

[BlackShanglan]

Or, on second thought, fuck my pride and dignity both. Fuck 'em both running.

Shanglan

 

[shereads]

When someone says, "Well, I have my dignity"

That's the catch. If you announce that you have dignity, you don't.

It's like announcing that you have class. No, you don't. Maybe you did, but once you said you did, you didn't.

 

[shereads]

I find it difficult to imagine a world without ideals like honor and integrity.

Canceled the newspaper, did you?

 

[BlackShanglan]

Canceled the newspaper, did you?

Ideals, dear one. We'll leave that nasty reality thing to itself.

 

[carsonshepherd]

Dignity, to me, is about having the inherent self-worth and faith to believe that some behaviors are beneath one. Not joyous, pleasant behaviors like mucking about in the mud with children, but petty, ugly, damaging behaviors, like quarreling publically with one's family. Oddly, I think that the height of dignity is knowing when and where to allow oneself to be a bit undignified.

Totally agree. If getting on the floor and playing with kids and dogs is undignified then I have no shred of dignity.

But I can swallow my pride when I'm wrong.... even if it BURRRNNNS!

 

[cantdog]

This thread has mangled the definition of all these words. But by all means, let's continue!

Honor. That one makes me think of the Mediterranean culture. Spain, Italy, Sicily, Arabia, Syria, Greece. Honor there is a root of the culture. It sounds good, but it usually has to do with blood feud and women. He looked upon my woman, my honor demands this and that. The places where honor makes families kill women, segregate them, knife other men over them. All that shit. You know the culture trope I'm speaking of. Honor in that sense can go fuck itself.

Then there's honor in the crotch sense, the marines, excuse me. No women here, usually, just high dignity and blood feud. Revenge, which is childish, whether you believe it or not. Retribution is not only something you grow out of, it's sheerly destructive. It's frequently tied in with honor.

The WTC aircraft hijack bombing was retribution. Shock and Awe was retribution. Fuck that too. Holding a grudge is self destructive, ruining your mental health and damaging your stomach lining. Plus it doesn't hurt anyone but you. Grow the fuck up and stop it, already, I say. If you act on your grudge, and the other guy has honor, blood feud ensues. There is no honorable way to end blood feud except extirpation of the entire tribe of the one you have the feud with.

What a smart idea that is.

Great.

Now if you want integrity, that's a different animal. What the tongue has promised the body must submit to. I don't give my word very often, because i would be compelled to redeem it.

There are plenty of people with no integrity and too many with the wrong kind of "honor."

Dignity can be all right, but like the children and dogs teach you, it's optional. Drop it when appropriate.

Pride has been defined six ways on this thread, once by me. I refer you to my earlier post, a response to Travelintheways.

cantdog

 

[shereads]

For mangled definitions, you can't beat Nixon's Vietnam solution:

"Peace with Honor"

Peace with an eventual reduction in bombings = Peace with Honor.

 

[BlackShanglan]

But I can swallow my pride when I'm wrong.... even if it BURRRNNNS!

Pour me a shot while you've got the bottle out.




Cantdog, I think we agree in all but language. Even there, we probably agree. We must, because I think you're brilliant.

Yes, those kinds of honor, like the bad kind of pride, do suck verily. When one takes any virtue and uses it as a means of drawing attention to oneself by conspicuous adoration of it, or to achieve one's hidden goals, then it becomes an ugly thing. I would only say that buried under that ugliness is the germ of an idea that could have been good.

Honor, for example, I would say exists in its good form when a person keeps his word for its own sake, or declines to betray a confidence for profit or conveniance, or sacrifices his or her own gain or goals in order to be true and loyal. These are noble things, some of the finest impulses of human nature. That idiots twist them into an excuse to brawl with each other is unfortunate, but I think does not touch the essential goodness of the "pure" impulse.

But then I think here we are back with pride and dignity. All of these words have both positive and pejorative dimensions. It's up to us not only to pursue the virtue, but to pursue its finest nature, and let the dross fall away.

Shanglan