UK, undemocratic if you live in Scotland

[SimonDoom]

As an American I have no stake in this debate, but I'm curious about it, from both standpoints -- Scotland's and England's.

What in a practical sense would Scotland stand to gain from being independent from the UK?

As another commentator noted here, how does it make for more democratic governance? Wouldn't Scotland just move from one parliamentary system to another similar parliamentary system?

How strongly do the English really care about holding on to Scotland? It would seem to me that the Conservative party would favor independence because a big chunk of Labor support would depart along with Scotland. Is that not so?

 

[oggbashan]

As an American I have no stake in this debate, but I'm curious about it, from both standpoints -- Scotland's and England's.

What in a practical sense would Scotland stand to gain from being independent from the UK?

1. Scotland would be able to make its own decisions. Scottish voters had a majority for remaining in the EU compared with an overall UK majority for leaving.

As another commentator noted here, how does it make for more democratic governance? Wouldn't Scotland just move from one parliamentary system to another similar parliamentary system?

2. The system would still be democratic and based on the Westminster model as the Scottish Parliament already is. The democracy would be closer to the electorate than having a Scottish Parliament with limited powers and Scottish Members of the Westminster (UK) Parliament as well.

How strongly do the English really care about holding on to Scotland? It would seem to me that the Conservative party would favor independence because a big chunk of Labor support would depart along with Scotland. Is that not so?

3. Some English people are fed up with the Scottish National Party and because of that think Scotland being independent would be a good idea. Scotland would cease to be subsidised by English taxpayers as they are now. But disentangling England and Scotland would be more difficult than Brexit, and Brexit is a nightmare.

But that feeling is more a response to the SNP's constant argument for a re-run of the independence referendum that was lost.

Distentangling Scotland from the UK would be complex:

Would Scottish people be barred from working in England? Would English people be barred from working in Scotland? Who is English or Scots? What about householders in each country who are not English/Scots? Would there be a hard border between England and Scotland? If the Scottish National Party wants Scotland to be independent and in the EU when England is outside the EU (not likely to happen because the EU fears regional factions in other countries wanting similar independence e.g. the Basques in France/Spain; the Alto Adige/South Tirol in Italy) the EU border will be between England and Scotland.

The Conservative Party's full title is the Conservative AND Unionist Party. They support a united UK including Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

As for the Labour Party in Scotland? They have been routed for representation at Westminster (as have the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats) by the Scottish National Party. The current figures are:

Scottish National Party 54
Independent 2
Scottish Labour 1
Scottish Conservative 1
Scottish Liberal Democrat 1

Total MPs for Scottish Constituencies at Westminster 59

 

[JackLuis]

Future of Gibraltar at stake in Brexit negotiations

Off topic a little but think of the consequences for Gibraltar. If the EU sides with Spain on the fate of the "Rock" what will happen to this prime British port?

 

[Exescort]

Future of Gibraltar at stake in Brexit negotiations

Off topic a little but think of the consequences for Gibraltar. If the EU sides with Spain on the fate of the "Rock" what will happen to this prime British port?

I think you'll find, the EU have sided with Spain.
Says a lot that.

 

[Exescort]

How can something be a contradiction in print only? It either is or is not.

Im with Hard_Rom...tin foil hat time I think.

You remind me of my uncle the conservatives could cure cancer or world hunger and there would still be a negative spin on it. Labour have done plenty of bad in their time.

It's quite simple, in print it's the readers interpretation of the facts. That's not to say their interpretation is the fact. No to difficult surely.
But if your only looking to create arguments, then carry on.

 

[Exescort]

1. Scotland would be able to make its own decisions. Scottish voters had a majority for remaining in the EU compared with an overall UK majority for leaving.



2. The system would still be democratic and based on the Westminster model as the Scottish Parliament already is. The democracy would be closer to the electorate than having a Scottish Parliament with limited powers and Scottish Members of the Westminster (UK) Parliament as well.



3. Some English people are fed up with the Scottish National Party and because of that think Scotland being independent would be a good idea. Scotland would cease to be subsidised by English taxpayers as they are now. But disentangling England and Scotland would be more difficult than Brexit, and Brexit is a nightmare.

But that feeling is more a response to the SNP's constant argument for a re-run of the independence referendum that was lost.

Distentangling Scotland from the UK would be complex:

Would Scottish people be barred from working in England? Would English people be barred from working in Scotland? Who is English or Scots? What about householders in each country who are not English/Scots? Would there be a hard border between England and Scotland? If the Scottish National Party wants Scotland to be independent and in the EU when England is outside the EU (not likely to happen because the EU fears regional factions in other countries wanting similar independence e.g. the Basques in France/Spain; the Alto Adige/South Tirol in Italy) the EU border will be between England and Scotland.

The Conservative Party's full title is the Conservative AND Unionist Party. They support a united UK including Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

As for the Labour Party in Scotland? They have been routed for representation at Westminster (as have the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats) by the Scottish National Party. The current figures are:

Scottish National Party 54
Independent 2
Scottish Labour 1
Scottish Conservative 1
Scottish Liberal Democrat 1

Total MPs for Scottish Constituencies at Westminster 59

Whether you agree or disagree with this post, you've got to admire the thought and effort put into his argument.

 

[oggbashan]

Future of Gibraltar at stake in Brexit negotiations

Off topic a little but think of the consequences for Gibraltar. If the EU sides with Spain on the fate of the "Rock" what will happen to this prime British port?

I think you'll find, the EU have sided with Spain.
Says a lot that.

Gibraltar voted massively to stay in the EU:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_(Referendum)_Act_2016_(Gibraltar)

Turnout 83.64%

Remain: 95.9%
Leave: 4.1%

Why?

I think Gibraltarians see the EU as a defence against Spain's territorial ambitions. The Schengen agreement means that Spain cannot unilaterally close the border, as it has done many times before. Gibraltarians have previously voted very substantially against incorporation into Spain by the highest majority in a free democratic vote.

Apart from that, Gibraltar is physically attached to Spain. Having a Gibraltar border between in and out of the EU is a nonsense.

But Gibraltar's economy benefits from NOT being part of Spain. It is a financial haven and a free port.

Gibraltar has been British since 1704 when it was taken during the War of Spanish Succession. The Treaty of Utrecht and subsequent treaties have been disputed by Spain, sometimes by attack in force:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputed_status_of_Gibraltar

Gibraltar does NOT want to be part of Spain but does want to remain part of the EU because that makes Spanish attempts at takeover of Gibraltar against EU rules between member states.

IF the UK wanted to give up Gibraltar the treaties mean that sovereignity must revert to Spain but the UK government have agreed they will NOT do that without the consent of the people of Gibraltar.

Gibraltar will be a problem during Brexit but nothing will happen without the consent of the Gibraltarians.

If Spain had been more conciliatory in the past, for example recognising the legitimacy of the Gibraltarian government, then it might be possible to come to a compromise. But Spain under various governments since 1704 to date has refused to acknowledge that Gibraltar is anything other than their territory.

 

[Exescort]

Gibraltar voted massively to stay in the EU:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_(Referendum)_Act_2016_(Gibraltar)

Turnout 83.64%

Remain: 95.9%
Leave: 4.1%

Why?

I think Gibraltarians see the EU as a defence against Spain's territorial ambitions. The Schengen agreement means that Spain cannot unilaterally close the border, as it has done many times before. Gibraltarians have previously voted very substantially against incorporation into Spain by the highest majority in a free democratic vote.

Apart from that, Gibraltar is physically attached to Spain. Having a Gibraltar border between in and out of the EU is a nonsense.

But Gibraltar's economy benefits from NOT being part of Spain. It is a financial haven and a free port.

Gibraltar has been British since 1704 when it was taken during the War of Spanish Succession. The Treaty of Utrecht and subsequent treaties have been disputed by Spain, sometimes by attack in force:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputed_status_of_Gibraltar

Gibraltar does NOT want to be part of Spain but does want to remain part of the EU because that makes Spanish attempts at takeover of Gibraltar against EU rules between member states.

IF the UK wanted to give up Gibraltar the treaties mean that sovereignity must revert to Spain but the UK government have agreed they will NOT do that without the consent of the people of Gibraltar.

Gibraltar will be a problem during Brexit but nothing will happen without the consent of the Gibraltarians.

If Spain had been more conciliatory in the past, for example recognising the legitimacy of the Gibraltarian government, then it might be possible to come to a compromise. But Spain under various governments since 1704 to date has refused to acknowledge that Gibraltar is anything other than their territory.

Very correct but yesterday the EU took the side of Spain in a move aimed at derailing the British government's negotiating position. Very clever move by the EU.
It's got the Tories by the bollocks lol

 

[oggbashan]

Very correct but yesterday the EU took the side of Spain in a move aimed at derailing the British government's negotiating position. Very clever move by the EU.
It's got the Tories by the bollocks lol

Maybe. But the EU's own rules prevent them from acting against the interests of the people of Gibraltar.

If they were to ignore the Gibraltarians, several countries would have real problems with their own minorities, and anti-EU voting in France and Belgium ( and other countries) might increase. It's just part of the game-playing before the UK and EU get down to real negotiations. Both sides are saying "we can make trouble for you".

 

[DeYaKen]

Very correct but yesterday the EU took the side of Spain in a move aimed at derailing the British government's negotiating position. Very clever move by the EU.
It's got the Tories by the bollocks lol

No, it hasn't it is all smokescreen. The EU can no more have a separate deal for Gibraltar than it can have a separate deal for Scotland. Gibraltar is not a Sovereign state, in its own right. It is a British Overseas Territory and as such, what applies to Britain applies to Gibraltar.

What we are seeing is a game of bluff and counter-bluff.

We said we would withdraw from criminal and terrorist information sharing if we don't get what we want. A bluff, such sharing is as much in our interest as it is theirs.

They are saying settle your leaving bill first or we'll exclude Gibraltar. Can't be done since any punishment of Gibraltar would be breaking a deal with the sovereign state of the UK.

What we are seeing is posturing, each side is trying to show their own people how tough they are being.

It is just the same as Nicola Sturgeon demanding a separate deal for Scotland. She demanded it knowing that it was impossible to get. The purpose was not to get the deal but to try to depict westminster as the bully riding roughshod over Scottish interests. Her goal was to further her chances of indepenence, not to get a better deal.

 

[Exescort]

No, it hasn't it is all smokescreen. The EU can no more have a separate deal for Gibraltar than it can have a separate deal for Scotland. Gibraltar is not a Sovereign state, in its own right. It is a British Overseas Territory and as such, what applies to Britain applies to Gibraltar.

What we are seeing is a game of bluff and counter-bluff.

We said we would withdraw from criminal and terrorist information sharing if we don't get what we want. A bluff, such sharing is as much in our interest as it is theirs.

They are saying settle your leaving bill first or we'll exclude Gibraltar. Can't be done since any punishment of Gibraltar would be breaking a deal with the sovereign state of the UK.

What we are seeing is posturing, each side is trying to show their own people how tough they are being.

It is just the same as Nicola Sturgeon demanding a separate deal for Scotland. She demanded it knowing that it was impossible to get. The purpose was not to get the deal but to try to depict westminster as the bully riding roughshod over Scottish interests. Her goal was to further her chances of indepenence, not to get a better deal.

I get the Scottish end of this totally. The Scottish news even started this.
So basically all politicians are full of hot air, blowing their own tunes to sound good.
It's all a shame really

 

[Exescort]

Maybe. But the EU's own rules prevent them from acting against the interests of the people of Gibraltar.

If they were to ignore the Gibraltarians, several countries would have real problems with their own minorities, and anti-EU voting in France and Belgium ( and other countries) might increase. It's just part of the game-playing before the UK and EU get down to real negotiations. Both sides are saying "we can make trouble for you".

It's quite exciting in a politics is boring as f@@@ kinda way

 

[DeYaKen]

I get the Scottish end of this totally. The Scottish news even started this.
So basically all politicians are full of hot air, blowing their own tunes to sound good.
It's all a shame really

That about sums it up. What is important is what it looks like to the people who elect them.
In the EU Thet have elections coming up in France and Germany this year. Both countries have oppositions who take an anti-EU stance. It is important to make the people in those countries feel that leaving the EU would be extremely painful. "Just look at how hard it is for Britain"

Look at the interview with Mother Theresa on the BBC. In one breath she says we are going to take back control of our borders and with the next she says there will be an open border in Northern Ireland.

That's like saying "we are locking the front door to keep the burglars out, but if you go round the back, the door is open."

Politicians only lie when their lips move.

 

[Exescort]

That about sums it up. What is important is what it looks like to the people who elect them.
In the EU Thet have elections coming up in France and Germany this year. Both countries have oppositions who take an anti-EU stance. It is important to make the people in those countries feel that leaving the EU would be extremely painful. "Just look at how hard it is for Britain"

Look at the interview with Mother Theresa on the BBC. In one breath she says we are going to take back control of our borders and with the next she says there will be an open border in Northern Ireland.

That's like saying "we are locking the front door to keep the burglars out, but if you go round the back, the door is open."

Politicians only lie when their lips move.

Lol, you know what, I really can't stand Mother Theresa. As for the BBC, I kinda luv them but hate their news programs.
I watched Line of Duty last Sunday, wow BBC.
Appletree Yard, wow BBC, sort the news out n I luv the BBC like I adored my ex,

 

[jayjay04]

It's quite simple, in print it's the readers interpretation of the facts. That's not to say their interpretation is the fact. No to difficult surely.
But if your only looking to create arguments, then carry on.

Im not trying to cause an argument at all, just trying to point out your arguments are flawed.

I am assuming you are a massive lefty or at least that is how it comes across.

As I have stated I do not care who is in power, non of them have the power or will to sort anything out. It is more about appearing to fix problems in the short term in order to get the next round of votes.

I have always been brought up to rely on yourself. So no matter what happens elsewhere, you are as much in control for your future as anyone else. I run a business with a few employees built from scratch, I should probably be a righty as they are in general less about giving away to the needy and more about helping business but the reality is no matter what changes and who is in power, the changes are so slight they barely scratch the surface.

I genuinely have no political allegiance what so ever. My issue lies in people who can only see the good or bad in something and do not have a balanced view.

 

[SimonDoom]

1. Scotland would be able to make its own decisions. Scottish voters had a majority for remaining in the EU compared with an overall UK majority for leaving.



2. The system would still be democratic and based on the Westminster model as the Scottish Parliament already is. The democracy would be closer to the electorate than having a Scottish Parliament with limited powers and Scottish Members of the Westminster (UK) Parliament as well.



3. Some English people are fed up with the Scottish National Party and because of that think Scotland being independent would be a good idea. Scotland would cease to be subsidised by English taxpayers as they are now. But disentangling England and Scotland would be more difficult than Brexit, and Brexit is a nightmare.

But that feeling is more a response to the SNP's constant argument for a re-run of the independence referendum that was lost.

Distentangling Scotland from the UK would be complex:

Would Scottish people be barred from working in England? Would English people be barred from working in Scotland? Who is English or Scots? What about householders in each country who are not English/Scots? Would there be a hard border between England and Scotland? If the Scottish National Party wants Scotland to be independent and in the EU when England is outside the EU (not likely to happen because the EU fears regional factions in other countries wanting similar independence e.g. the Basques in France/Spain; the Alto Adige/South Tirol in Italy) the EU border will be between England and Scotland.

The Conservative Party's full title is the Conservative AND Unionist Party. They support a united UK including Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

As for the Labour Party in Scotland? They have been routed for representation at Westminster (as have the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats) by the Scottish National Party. The current figures are:

Scottish National Party 54
Independent 2
Scottish Labour 1
Scottish Conservative 1
Scottish Liberal Democrat 1

Total MPs for Scottish Constituencies at Westminster 59

Very interesting response. Thanks!

 

[Scotsman69]

The Scotish Parliament is elected on a totally different basis to Westminster,

Our electoral system, which includes both first-past-the-post constituencies, and a compensating element of PR to allow smaller parties representation, was specifically DESIGNED to prevent one party ever having an overall majority.

Despite this, the SNP did achieve an overall majority.

The real hypocrisy lies with the Tories, who fought against PR. But who would only have a tiny presence in Holyrood without it.

Scotland will inevitably regain the independence which 'was bought and sold for English gold' (Rabbie Burns) in 1707. We will once again be happily independent. And no little Englander can stop it happening.

1. Scotland would be able to make its own decisions. Scottish voters had a majority for remaining in the EU compared with an overall UK majority for leaving.



2. The system would still be democratic and based on the Westminster model as the Scottish Parliament already is. The democracy would be closer to the electorate than having a Scottish Parliament with limited powers and Scottish Members of the Westminster (UK) Parliament as well.



3. Some English people are fed up with the Scottish National Party and because of that think Scotland being independent would be a good idea. Scotland would cease to be subsidised by English taxpayers as they are now. But disentangling England and Scotland would be more difficult than Brexit, and Brexit is a nightmare.

But that feeling is more a response to the SNP's constant argument for a re-run of the independence referendum that was lost.

Distentangling Scotland from the UK would be complex:

Would Scottish people be barred from working in England? Would English people be barred from working in Scotland? Who is English or Scots? What about householders in each country who are not English/Scots? Would there be a hard border between England and Scotland? If the Scottish National Party wants Scotland to be independent and in the EU when England is outside the EU (not likely to happen because the EU fears regional factions in other countries wanting similar independence e.g. the Basques in France/Spain; the Alto Adige/South Tirol in Italy) the EU border will be between England and Scotland.

The Conservative Party's full title is the Conservative AND Unionist Party. They support a united UK including Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

As for the Labour Party in Scotland? They have been routed for representation at Westminster (as have the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats) by the Scottish National Party. The current figures are:

Scottish National Party 54
Independent 2
Scottish Labour 1
Scottish Conservative 1
Scottish Liberal Democrat 1

Total MPs for Scottish Constituencies at Westminster 59

 

[oggbashan]

...

Scotland will inevitably regain the independence which 'was bought and sold for English gold' (Rabbie Burns) in 1707. We will once again be happily independent. And no little Englander can stop it happening.

It was stopped by Scots.

 

[Scotsman69]

In days long before there was a democratic franchise in either Scotland or England

It was stopped by a tiny minority of capitalist Scots who greatly benefitted from free access to English colonies in North America and the Caribbean. They became rich, partly through the slave trade and its 'benefits'... to them, not the slaves.

Grow up ogg. You're an intelligent man. I respect your mind. Have the decency to respect mine. You know better than to play daft Little Englander games.

Dougie

It was stopped by Scots.

 

[flyingtinopener]

Undemocratic UK

In recent years we have had two referendums in the UK,one for independence in Scotland, and the other on leaving the E.U., both of these were carried out in a proper democratic fashion. All people entitled to vote had the opportunity to make their choice at the ballot box,as with all things of this nature a simple majority wins the day, that is democracy.
With the Scottish vote the majority voted to stay in the UK, end of story,I see no reason that another referendum should take place soon,unless Nicola Sturgeon intends to have as many as it takes to get the result she wants.
With the referendum on leaving the EU,this was a vote by the UK as a whole of which
Scotland is a part of the UK, not one where regional weighting would count,therefore the fact that some areas voted to stay matters not, if this were to count, then perhaps Surrey would stay in and Kent would leave, and this would be repeated across the country.
What really upsets Nicola Sturgeon is that she has been royally sidelined,and has no say in future events, she must be spitting blood, she is now totally powerless to shape future events, I find this very amusing,annoying, but democratic and proper.
We are where we are, and we,re here in a democratic way, hard luck Nicola, you lost, now live with it.

 

[Scotsman69]

Fortunately...

the people of Scotland, and not you, will decide our future. Soon....

In recent years we have had two referendums in the UK,one for independence in Scotland, and the other on leaving the E.U., both of these were carried out in a proper democratic fashion. All people entitled to vote had the opportunity to make their choice at the ballot box,as with all things of this nature a simple majority wins the day, that is democracy.
With the Scottish vote the majority voted to stay in the UK, end of story,I see no reason that another referendum should take place soon,unless Nicola Sturgeon intends to have as many as it takes to get the result she wants.
With the referendum on leaving the EU,this was a vote by the UK as a whole of which
Scotland is a part of the UK, not one where regional weighting would count,therefore the fact that some areas voted to stay matters not, if this were to count, then perhaps Surrey would stay in and Kent would leave, and this would be repeated across the country.
What really upsets Nicola Sturgeon is that she has been royally sidelined,and has no say in future events, she must be spitting blood, she is now totally powerless to shape future events, I find this very amusing,annoying, but democratic and proper.
We are where we are, and we,re here in a democratic way, hard luck Nicola, you lost, now live with it.

 

[Scotsman69]

It is demographically inevitable that the disunited queendom (for now) of the misnamed UK will disappear in time.

In the 1920s gerrymandered statelet of Northern Ireland, the 'nationalist', ie predominantly RC-originating population is growing faster than the 'unionist', ie predominantly 'protestant' part. It is historically inevitable that NI will in time vote to become part of the Irish republic. That is in part why in their most recent election, Sinn Feinn is only two votes short of being the largest party at Stormont.

In Scotland, only older folk voted in majority to remain in the 'UK' in the 2014 referendum. Younger folk want Scotland to become a nation-state again.

It is absolutely inevitable that in the foreseeable future, Scotland will be independent. And part of the EU.

And the uncomfortable 'UK' will disappear from the map. I don't imagine proudly different Wales will remain long part of little England....

 

[DeYaKen]

Scotland will inevitably regain the independence which 'was bought and sold for English gold' (Rabbie Burns) in 1707. We will once again be happily independent. And no little Englander can stop it happening.

Are you going to give us our gold back then? Three hundred years of interest should come to a tidy sum. Then, of course, there are the billions we poured into the Royal Bank of Scotland, The NHS in the rest of Britain could run for a couple of years on that.

I've got to admit I can't wait to see the back of the SNP whiners. After they lost the last "once in a generation" vote I predicted that the would be screaming for another one within four years. I wish I'd put money on it at the time.

 

[Scotsman69]

We'll give you back whatever we might owe you...

when you repay us OUR oil and gas revenues Thatcher squandered in her 'elect me' Malvinas/Falklands war...

And please don't forget the millions we give you each year for London's heavily-subsidised public transport... and building Crossrail, HS1 and HS2. From none of which Scotland gains any benefit.

But if you really believe little England subsidises us, why on earth do you want us to be part of your disunited queendom?

Are you going to give us our gold back then? Three hundred years of interest should come to a tidy sum. Then, of course, there are the billions we poured into the Royal Bank of Scotland, The NHS in the rest of Britain could run for a couple of years on that.

I've got to admit I can't wait to see the back of the SNP whiners. After they lost the last "once in a generation" vote I predicted that the would be screaming for another one within four years. I wish I'd put money on it at the time.

 

[flyingtinopener]

independence

In reply to Scotsman 69, we did not make the decision on independence, you did,I understand that some of you would like to be an independent country and I respect your views, but be sure of what you wish for.
Without doubt the UK is greater than the sum of it,s parts,if Scotland leaves the UK, we all loose, and don,t believe all the hogwash that Salmon and Sturgeon feed you, you are at present running a financial deficit, and when Sturgeon was asked about this she didn,t have an answer, just bluster.
A greater say in your own affairs on many things is only just and fair, but leaving the UK is not the answer, the SNP is not the best servant of the Scottish People,they are feeding you a picture of Utopia that cannot be achieved.
Look at the real world for a moment, the EU is a failure, it,s currency is in terminal decline, it is run by petty little men like Tusk and Junkers, and a President from Malta, do you really want to ally yourselves to them.
Just be clear what is best for us all, no one in England wants the UK to split up together we are stronger, no one in England want Scotland to leave the UK,if you do, we all loose
Don,t listen to Salmon and sturgeon, neither have a clue of how to make it work,and the way that salmon slunk back to Westminster after the referendum failure shows you what a self serving little man he is.
We are stronger together, we are family.