Unhappy Endings

[CalebZhass]

I agree with most of your points - but not this. Happiness can never be meaningless, even if it is lost. It gives characters something to live for, even if it's only glimpses, and a drive to find happiness again.

True, but I am not the character. I'm just wearing their skin, feeling their feelings. I don't have any agency in the story, so glimpses of happiness might give me hope, but when the story ends on a bleak note, I'll feel all the more bad, as unlike the character would be, I'm powerless to change the outcome.

In real life, you are right of course, even glimpses of happiness are worth it to offset an otherwise bleak and sad life. To give hope and motivation to carry on. For a reader of a story however, it is not the same dynamics at play. While I can value the artistic aspect of being true to reality and portraying how the characters can gain hope and motivation from these glimpses of joy, unless the whole proposition or the buildup of the story leads to a sad and negative ending, I'll definitely share their hope, feel their enthusiasm and then feel the letdown when all the efforts were in vain at the end. If I know where the story is going, I will still feel their pain, but I can better brace myself for the eventual fall.

The rest of what you wrote is spot on. The above, I guess it is highly subjective and depends on how deeply one immerses themselves in a story. I tend to be on the far side, living and breathing with the characters I read about, so I am very sensitive to their emotional turmoil. This is also why I prefer happier stories, as well.. who likes to be sad and depressed.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

If I know where the story is going, I will still feel their pain, but I can better brace myself for the eventual fall.

No, not to the same depths, you won't. The highs won't be so high and teh lows won't be so low since you know where it's all headed.

If you want the story to go a certain way, write it yourself.

 

[CalebZhass]

No, not to the same depths, you won't. The highs won't be so high and teh lows won't be so low since you know where it's all headed.

If you want the story to go a certain way, write it yourself.

This is at least your second comment I see, where you for whatever strange reason confuse expectations with demands.

Expecting something is not the same as me demanding it.

Let me show you the difference:
- I expect stories to fall in a certain bucket for a genre. I don't mind if a story does not do that, but if its too far off the genre or my expectations, I might not enjoy it personally. I would still not judge the author or "complain" about it. What I'd do is provide constructive feedback on how I felt and why I felt that way. It is then on the author to decide what they do.
If they keep writing stuff I don't like, that's fine. I don't have to like everyone, nor does everyone have to please me personally.

- You telling me to shut up and do it myself if I don't like something is what a demand is. You just expect people to either like something or just shut up about it.

See, when I voice my opinion about someone's work, I do that with the utmost respect knowing how much effort they've put into it. Even for stuff I don't like, I try to be constructive and helpful in my comments. I never expect anyone to heed my advice. Heck, it is more than likely that some of my advice is crap anyway, not to mention it most certainly is subjective. I simply believe, that with enough comments and ratings, the writer can grow and improve.

I hope you too can see the value in that.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

This is at least your second comment I see, where you for whatever strange reason confuse expectations with demands.

Expecting something is not the same as me demanding it.

Let me show you the difference:
- I expect stories to fall in a certain bucket for a genre. I don't mind if a story does not do that, but if its too far off the genre or my expectations, I might not enjoy it personally. I would still not judge the author or "complain" about it. What I'd do is provide constructive feedback on how I felt and why I felt that way. It is then on the author to decide what they do.
If they keep writing stuff I don't like, that's fine. I don't have to like everyone, nor does everyone have to please me personally.

- You telling me to shut up and do it myself if I don't like something is what a demand is. You just expect people to either like something or just shut up about it.

See, when I voice my opinion about someone's work, I do that with the utmost respect knowing how much effort they've put into it. Even for stuff I don't like, I try to be constructive and helpful in my comments. I never expect anyone to heed my advice. Heck, it is more than likely that some of my advice is crap anyway, not to mention it most certainly is subjective. I simply believe, that with enough comments and ratings, the writer can grow and improve.

I hope you too can see the value in that.

First, I never told you to shut up. You imbued that yourself.

You were arguing that your reading experience of a sad story would be more enjoyable if the ending were spoiled or given away in some way to prepare you for the bad end. You can call it expectation or demand but the effect is the same. Even by just expecting the author to cater/pander to your expectations and spoil the ending, you are ruining the story for those who don't want the spoiler. If you need the spoiler, simply read the last page first, or go write your own story your own way with whatever spoiler/foreshadowing that you wish.

If one wants to give feedback to the author that he was disappointed with a bad end that didn't leave him warm and fuzzy that's fine, but one should not expect the author to give a spoiler just to spare his feelings and ruin the experience for everyone or anyone else just because he thinks that his expectations are more important.

 

[CalebZhass]

First, I never told you to shut up. You imbued that yourself.

You were arguing that your reading experience of a sad story would be more enjoyable if the ending were spoiled or given away in some way to prepare you for the bad end.

No, I wasn't arguing that. I don't want the ending to be spoiled, but in general I prefer to know what kind of piece I am watching. If it is a war drama, I'll approach it differently, than if its a comedy. Also if a war drama ends up in comedy, I will be disappointed as I expected something else. Likewise, when I watch comedy and feel my gut wrenched, I will be disappointed, as I expected something else. Should I go on? I don't give a fuck what you think "I should do". Your whole notion that I should care about your preferences is exactly the kind of entitled demanding attitude you accuse others of. Chew on that for a moment.

You can call it expectation or demand but the effect is the same. Even by just expecting the author to cater/pander to your expectations and spoil the ending, you are ruining the story for those who don't want the spoiler.

Man, I wish I would have that kind of pull in life.
A) I don't give a fuck about how others feel about the work I am reading. It is not my job. My job is to enjoy it. To share my feelings about it after having read it.
B) The author might care how people feel about their work and might even decide to change it based on feedback. Is it really my fault for giving feedback if they decide to take some action? You surely can't be serious.
C) The author doesn't have to care. I sure as hell don't. I write the way I like, what I like and for my own reasons. If someone likes my work, cool. If not, they can fuck off.

following me so far?

If you need the spoiler, simply read the last page first, or go write your own story your own way with whatever spoiler/foreshadowing that you wish.

If you want me to do something, I can be your bitch, but I'm an expensive one, so you better be prepared to pay through the nose, especially for dumb, disgusting things like this. In the absence of a business relationship, you stick to what you do, and leave it to me to decide what I do. Thank you.

If one wants to give feedback to the author that he was disappointed with a bad end that didn't leave him warm and fuzzy that's fine, but one should not expect the author to give a spoiler just to spare his feelings and ruin the experience for everyone or anyone else just because he thinks that his expectations are more important.

Everyone think that their expectations are the most important. You yourself are the living proof of that. Me? I can live with you staying the way you are. You don't have to change on my account.

Have a wonderful evening.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Everyone think that their expectations are the most important. You yourself are the living proof of that. Me? I can live with you staying the way you are. You don't have to change on my account.

No I am not. I am simply arguing that if a story does not spoil the ending for those who need some sort of guarantee for a certain ending, those who need that spoiler still have a recourse of going to the last page and spoiling it for themselves. If a story does contain a spoiler warning or some other giveaway, those who wish to enjoy the story as it unfolds regardless of the ending do not have such recourse. For them the story is ruined.

Have a wonderful evening.

No problems here. Hope that you can control your anger enough to do same.

 

[AG31]

I've always liked an unhappy ending. Happiness is more beautiful when things are sad.

Less philosophically, though, how careful should I be about posting a story in Romance that doesn't conclude happily ever after?

It's a story about a couple on the verge of divorce who spend one last night together, in sex and reminiscence of their relationship and lives. They were hoping somewhere that this night would fix things, but it doesn't. The story ends with them following through with the divorce. So it's a sad ending, but not wholly so: they mature, and find closure in their relationship and the joy it brought, and realise the value of moving on.

I feel like people are more expectant of happy endings in the Romance category, but it still definitely fits best for this story. The sex is not centre stage enough for Erotic Couplings to work. And it's definitely not non-erotic. Any advice?

I don't post in or read the romance category (with minor exceptions), but I have very much liked romantic stories outside of erotica and a sad ending would be fine. Think Love Story with Ryan O'Neil and Ali McGraw. That tells you how popular a sad ending can be. (If you're too young, Google it. Then read the book!)

 

[sexsutra]

I read a May/December story recently where the older woman died at the end. Her condition gave her the courage to take a chance with the young man and they had a terrific summer.

I was very torn at the end, which I'm sure was the writers goal. Sweet but sad. I've thought about doing it, but haven't yet.

Would you please be kind and mention that story link here? Thank you

 

[orangecurious]

I wrote this why'd you ever have to say goodbye with the ending as the start for me... I knew what would happen and it wouldn't be good, but tried to arrive there with as much diversion as possible - hence one reason why it was so long (the other being I didn't feel it could be split up and didn't really want to do that)

When it came to the ending, I really struggled as I didn't want that ending to happen, but then, the story wouldn't happen without it.

One other of mine has a surprise ending, but not sad (not overly happy either)

 

[Rob_Royale]

Would you please be kind and mention that story link here? Thank you

I'm sure I commented so I might be able to find it.

 

[ElectricBlue]

No, not to the same depths, you won't. The highs won't be so high and teh lows won't be so low since you know where it's all headed.

If you want the story to go a certain way, write it yourself.

And don't plan it .

 

[pink_silk_glove]

And don't plan it .

Nevar! : P

 

[Rob_Royale]

Would you please be kind and mention that story link here? Thank you

I'm sorry, I'm unable to find it.

 

[onehitwanda]

I'm not sure if it's strictly an unhappy ending, as such, but As You Wish remains at the top of the Romance hall of fame, and The Rehab is still on page 1.

Neither of those are happy endings by any possible description. Hopeful, maybe, but not happy.

 

[SimonDoom]

I almost started my own thread, but when I opened it the Site pointed me to this thread, which, surprisingly, I had not previously responded to.

I don't believe in "ending" endings as such. It's more true and realistic to me if a story ends at a certain point, and we don't know what will happen after that. That's life. I also think it's more artistically satisfying when a story ends that way, as opposed to an ending that dictates to you how you must see the finish and what becomes of the characters.

My readers often don't agree. I've had comments in response to incest stories that were disappointed that I didn't bring the two characters together in some final, definitive way. But that doesn't seem true to me. I find the uncertainty about the future to be more satisfyingly poignant and profound.

 

[RetroFan]

I almost started my own thread, but when I opened it the Site pointed me to this thread, which, surprisingly, I had not previously responded to.

I don't believe in "ending" endings as such. It's more true and realistic to me if a story ends at a certain point, and we don't know what will happen after that. That's life. I also think it's more artistically satisfying when a story ends that way, as opposed to an ending that dictates to you how you must see the finish and what becomes of the characters.

My readers often don't agree. I've had comments in response to incest stories that were disappointed that I didn't bring the two characters together in some final, definitive way. But that doesn't seem true to me. I find the uncertainty about the future to be more satisfyingly poignant and profound.

I've had this too with regards to the endings, and as you mention in Incest Taboo more than any other categories. The best ending I've ever read in any fictional story was that of 'Harry' by British author Rosemary Timperley. If you haven't read it the story is about a married couple in post WW2 London who adopt a young orphan, only for the wife to begin to suspect that the girl's imaginary friend may not be imaginary after all. An eerie, haunting and ambiguous ending was a fitting close for an eerie and haunting story filled with ambiguity and somehow more scary as it takes place mostly in daylight in ordinary settings full of ordinary people. I remember studying the book (a short novella) in high school and it always stuck in my mind, especially the ending.

A reader can speculate on what really happened, but if Rosemary Timperley had fully explained what really happened at the end, it would have ruined her masterpiece.

 

[Erozetta]

I almost started my own thread, but when I opened it the Site pointed me to this thread, which, surprisingly, I had not previously responded to.

I don't believe in "ending" endings as such. It's more true and realistic to me if a story ends at a certain point, and we don't know what will happen after that. That's life. I also think it's more artistically satisfying when a story ends that way, as opposed to an ending that dictates to you how you must see the finish and what becomes of the characters.

My readers often don't agree. I've had comments in response to incest stories that were disappointed that I didn't bring the two characters together in some final, definitive way. But that doesn't seem true to me. I find the uncertainty about the future to be more satisfyingly poignant and profound.

Dedication in one of my stories:

To the friends who've painstakingly tried to help me give this story an ending, only for me to decide it simply needed to end.

Ambiguous endings are the best, in my opinion.

Real life seldom gets tidy bows tying everything up at the end and I do like a hint of realism in the stories I read, even when they are fantastical, so a story that ends at the right point but doesn't necessarily have an "ending" will be a draw to me.

 

[THBGato]

My latest, The Parting Glass, definitely qualifies.
https://www.literotica.com/s/the-parting-glass-1

 

[Erozetta]

My take on unhappy endings is that life kinda sucks most of the time for a non-zero sum of people. Why alienate them even if they are fewer than the ones that have a tendency to be/want happy? Why not offer pieces they might be able to relate to or enjoy instead of always tossing out ones that cause them to roll their eyes at the sappiness?

There's a place for both styles. A draw for both happy and sad. I might lean niche in readership because I like dark subjects, but I also think I got a fair bit of excellent feedback because of my unwillingness to pull punches on subject matter.

I think I've included an allusion to either suicidal ideation or an attempt in all but one of my stories. And the only reason it wasn't in that one was because I wanted to prove to my husband I was capable of writing a sappy romance.

 

[SimonDoom]

Interestingly, the story category where readers most often call for happy endings, in my experience, is incest. Who would have guessed so many incest readers are hopeless romantics? But it's true. I recently had a comment from someone who liked my brother-sister story but disliked the ending where the brother and sister ended apart (the story leaves it that there's a strong prospect they may get back together, but there's no hint when that may happen) rather than being together. This seems like a strange objection to me. There's almost no way that a sister and brother COULD remain together in a truly happy, romantic way. They would be condemned by society, even today. They would have to deal with their own, almost inevitable, feelings of guilt, as well as the practical problem that they're unlikely to have children and be able to raise a normal family together. The taboo is part of what makes the category interesting, and it can't be whisked away as though by a magic wand.

 

[lovecraft68]

In my SWB series I spent 40+ installments gearing people up for the tragic ending because based on the rest of the series there was no way these two would end up happy, or possibly not even alive. I even went so far as to pave the way for said bad ending, then drew back at the last minute and let them have what they'd always wanted.

But thanks to no spoilers and the tone of the series, I was able to pleasantly surprise the people who read it 'live' as each chapter came out. Years later I've had multiple messages from people saying they couldn't wait and jumped ahead to see the end to decide if they wanted to keep going.

To me it defeats the purpose of reading which is to go for the ride and have no idea where you'll end up.

Soft.

 

[lovecraft68]

Interestingly, the story category where readers most often call for happy endings, in my experience, is incest. Who would have guessed so many incest readers are hopeless romantics? But it's true. I recently had a comment from someone who liked my brother-sister story but disliked the ending where the brother and sister ended apart (the story leaves it that there's a strong prospect they may get back together, but there's no hint when that may happen) rather than being together. This seems like a strange objection to me. There's almost no way that a sister and brother COULD remain together in a truly happy, romantic way. They would be condemned by society, even today. They would have to deal with their own, almost inevitable, feelings of guilt, as well as the practical problem that they're unlikely to have children and be able to raise a normal family together. The taboo is part of what makes the category interesting, and it can't be whisked away as though by a magic wand.

We've had discussion on this in the past. I've always felt its because incest readers know that in real life its a twisted, bleak, and often abusive situation, so when writing it in the vein of sexy fantasy most people want to see that fantasy go all the way through the end. Who cares about what people think, we're happy, we're in love, we're together. Sad endings bring it back to reality.

 

[SimonDoom]

We've had discussion on this in the past. I've always felt its because incest readers know that in real life its a twisted, bleak, and often abusive situation, so when writing it in the vein of sexy fantasy most people want to see that fantasy go all the way through the end. Who cares about what people think, we're happy, we're in love, we're together. Sad endings bring it back to reality.

It's a good point and I think you're probably right, but it means there's a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" quality to reader response, because some readers get mad when you deviate from their sense of reality and some readers get mad when you deviate from their fantasy, and there's no way to please both types of readers. You have to write to please yourself and your own artistic vision and let the reader response chips fall where they may.

 

[lovecraft68]

It's a good point and I think you're probably right, but it means there's a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" quality to reader response, because some readers get mad when you deviate from their sense of reality and some readers get mad when you deviate from their fantasy, and there's no way to please both types of readers. You have to write to please yourself and your own artistic vision and let the reader response chips fall where they may.

I entered the What I wrote and why event and did it based on what I refer to as the Anti-Incest incest story. Dark, sad, full of guilt, loss, and addiction. The sex between the daughter and her father was not happy and lusty, it was a desperate attempt to help him. In the end, the encounter did not lead to her being daddy's happy little playmate, it never happened again, she moved on and so did he.

The entire story flies in the face of the point I'd just made and I did it to see what the reaction would be. It was received much better than I expected with many saying they weren't even sure it was erotic, but it was well done. I got a few "what were you thinking" but not as many.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Interestingly, the story category where readers most often call for happy endings, in my experience, is incest.

I'll defer to your experience with (writing) incest but romance has to be right up there i would think.