United States Constitution

[Kirkrapine]

I have sometimes at SF cons seen a message-button that says, "The United States Constitution has its faults, but it's a hell of a lot better than what we've got now." Which is clever, and amusing, and a lie. The United States Constitution is patently worse than what we've got now. It was designed for an agrarian society; no modern industrialized state could get by with a government of such limited powers.

 

[BotanyBoy]

I have sometimes at SF cons

What's an SF con?

The United States Constitution is patently worse than what we've got now.

Why?

It was designed for an agrarian society;

No it wasn't.

no modern industrialized state could get by with a government of such limited powers.

Yet we've managed so much better than pretty much anyone else, certainly for our size and population. While socialist state after socialist state collapsed and starved tens of millions to death, we were busy creating tech revolutions the likes of which have never been seen AND an obesity epidemic because so much delicious food.

 

[Kirkrapine]

What's an SF con?

Science fiction convention. Fen (plural of fan) often wear humorous message-buttons. I have one that says, "'Bother!' said Pooh, as the hunters pumped nine slugs into his belly." And another that says, "Librarians do it until the user loses interest!"

No it wasn't.

What else could it have been? Hamilton's Plan was rejected.

Yet we've managed so much better than pretty much anyone else, certainly for our size and population. While socialist state after socialist state collapsed and starved tens of millions to death, we were busy creating tech revolutions the likes of which have never been seen AND an obesity epidemic because so much delicious food.

We have managed that only by allowing the federal government to grow far beyond the powers and functions the FFs envisioned for it.

N.B.: It does not matter whether the Progressive Era, New Deal or Great Society programs are constitutional. What matters is that they are indispensable.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Science fiction convention.

Ahhh I see.

What else could it have been?

Just society in general....the liberal ideals/values the country was founded upon apply regardless of what technological level we are at.

We have managed that only by allowing the federal government to grow far beyond the powers and functions the FFs envisioned for it.

No, most of our "far beyond the powers and functions the FFs envisioned for it." are all bureaucratic bullshit and all pretty modern/new. Like letting Monsanto weaponize the USDA/EPA for it's financial gain.

Federal government doesn't have shit to do with the fact that we were getting fat and creating one of the most dominant cultures to have ever existed while the Soviets were eating their kids. In fact we were able to do that because the government was restricted in it's ability to oppress us the people (what you want to do more of).

N.B.: It does not matter whether the Progressive Era, New Deal or Great Society programs are constitutional. What matters is that they are indispensable.

PE yea....New Deal meh...and sure as shit not GS...that was total garbage.

And it does matter that they are Constitutional, because this just isn't the authoritarian dictatorship you wish we had.

 

[SpeareChucker]

The North was pretty industrialized long before the Progressive movement and the imposition of you beloved big government. That's one of the main reasons that it won the war.

 

[Kirkrapine]

The North was pretty industrialized long before the Progressive movement and the imposition of you beloved big government. That's one of the main reasons that it won the war.

Mainly it won the war because the South was not industrialized -- which was because they were culturally committed to an agrarian economy based on slave labor.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Mainly it won the war because the South was not industrialized -- which was because they were culturally committed to an agrarian economy based on slave labor.

Either way...we, the USA, experienced more prosperity than any others under a primarily capitalistic, greed driven system.

While every single socialist state either was forced to come right at some level be it "state capitalism" or just a heavily taxed capitalistic economy like in Scandinavia.....or they totally shit the bed like the Norks, Soviets, Cubans.

You want to talk about designed for an agrarian society? That's communism....even then as most communes have demonstrated, doesn't work.

Humans are self serving and greedy, ignore that or try to stamp it out of your people and you wind up with horrors against humanity.

 

[Kirkrapine]

Either way...we, the USA, experienced more prosperity than any others under a primarily capitalistic, greed driven system.

While every single socialist state either was forced to come right at some level . . .

Bear in mind that you are excluding the U.S. from the category "socialistic state," even though we have had a mixed economy since the Progressive Era.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Bear in mind that you are excluding the U.S. from the category "socialistic state," even though we have had a mixed economy since the Progressive Era.

Mixed yes but in the exact opposite sense of the less prosperous and powerful left leaning mixed states.

We are still highly capitalistic, liberal, right leaning mixed economy and moving right off a hard left swing.

You might still get your communist utopia, someone is bound to try again.....S. Africa is on the verge of going balls deep and destroying their agricultural base in the name of social justice, you should go get you some of that, true utopia is at hand comrade

 

[Colonel Hogan]

I have sometimes at SF cons seen a message-button that says, "The United States Constitution has its faults, but it's a hell of a lot better than what we've got now." Which is clever, and amusing, and a lie. The United States Constitution is patently worse than what we've got now. It was designed for an agrarian society; no modern industrialized state could get by with a government of such limited powers.

We have managed that only by allowing the federal government to grow far beyond the powers and functions the FFs envisioned for it.

N.B.: It does not matter whether the Progressive Era, New Deal or Great Society programs are constitutional. What matters is that they are indispensable.

So now that you got all that off your chest, exactly what is the point of this thread?

 

[Kirkrapine]

So now that you got all that off your chest, exactly what is the point of this thread?

Everybody STFU about how the left-progressive/social-democratic agenda is "unconstitutional"! We're past all that!

 

[AngusBridie]

https://i.imgur.com/q3iCWqE.jpg

 

[HisArpy]

So now that you got all that off your chest, exactly what is the point of this thread?

It's subtle. Notice how KO says the "original intent" of the framers was toward an agrarian society.

Notice too how KO tells us that agrarian societies cannot defend themselves very well militarily.

And then notice how often KO spouts the socialism doctrine he would like see replace the Constitutional Republic of the US.

In short: If we'd only return to the good old days of the framers and become an agrarian society again we'd be happier. Plus, if we did that, we wouldn't be able to field the military might we have today. That, of course, will make us easy pickings for the socialists to swoop in and take over.

 

[Kirkrapine]

In short: If we'd only return to the good old days of the framers and become an agrarian society again we'd be happier.

No, if we copied modern industrialized Scandinavia we'd be happier.

The single most odious argument I have ever seen against that, BTW, is that what works there can't work here because they have a "homogeneous society."

 

[Colonel Hogan]

Everybody STFU about how the left-progressive/social-democratic agenda is "unconstitutional"! We're past all that!

We're not "past" anything, and, OF COURSE it matters what is and isn't "constititutional," which is precisely why practically every social democratic program passed by Congress, from Social Security to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 has specifically been legally upheld by the United States Supreme Court on the basis of Constitutionality (see Helvering v. Davis and Heart of Atlanta Motel, Inc. v. United States).

In conducting those legal reviews, SCOTUS was far more interested in the relationship of these legislative acts to the Commerce Clause and other enumerated powers of Congress under the Constitution than it was whether they were or were not "indispensable."

So...the Constitution that our founding fathers established, which most importantly details the relationship of the three branches of government by which we are governed, was, indeed, designed to facilitate the orderly evolution of a society they could not have possibly imagined, and that includes a federal government of greater power over the states than they might have originally wished. THAT is the true beauty and power of the document, and it continues to take the measure of the social and political agendas of both liberals and conservatives alike.

May it always be so.

 

[BotanyBoy]

No, if we copied modern industrialized Scandinavia we'd be happier.

That would require a whole lot of capitalism....

I mean the left is going to have take it's foot of the peoples throat a bit for that to happen just like they did in Scandinavia.

And we all know how much you lefties HATE HATE HATE freedom and liberty. Letting people exchange goods and services without you controlling every aspect of it to the point of crippling the economy and starving millions is just unthinkable am I right?

The single most odious argument I have ever seen against that, BTW, is that what works there can't work here because they have a "homogeneous society."

That and it's just un-American and antithetical to traditional US political/economic values.

You clearly fucking hate the USA KO, why don't you leave for a more utopian socialist society....like Venezuela or Cuba?

I bet the Norks would love you!