Water Heater Woes

[SweetErika]

The other day I came home from a trip to find our water heater leaking out the bottom. My neighbor helped me minimize the damage and I was able to suck up the water in the carpet with a brand new wet-dry vac, but now we need a new water heater.

Our current (and dead) is a 50-gallon, natural gas, A.O. Smith from 1994 or something.

I'm getting some estimates on tankless installation tomorrow, but we'll probably end up going the tank route. For a "super efficient" (Energy Star?) Rheem 50-gal gas tank model, the lowest estimates I got (for replacement w/ all fittings and haul away) were:
6-year warranty: $750
10-year warranty: $860
15-year warranty w/ 2 extra diode rods: $1029

Those are all for the same heater with a 1-year labor warranty and just different tank & parts warranties.

So, what do I need to know about getting a new water heater? I've read guides like this, but I'm pretty lost otherwise.

If I go with the company that gave me the estimates above, should I go with the cheap 6-year warranty, or spend extra on the extended warranty? (Now that I know diodes should be replaced every 2-5 years, we *will* be doing that to extend the life of our new WH).

Have you installed a gas model yourself? If so, do you think it's fairly easy for a typical DIYer, or is it worth paying the extra $300-600 to have it installed professionally? One plumber I called said it's something we could maybe start ourselves and then have them finish if we got stuck, but then they wouldn't warranty the tank/parts. Do you think it's advisable to try that approach, or not?

It seems like a lot of companies around here install Rheem water heaters. Do you know anything about that brand, or is there a particular brand you like? We're looking for efficiency, longevity and low-maintenance (apart from maybe replacing the diode every few years, or whatever).

Thanks in advance for any advice you have to offer!

 

[fgarvb1]

SweetErika,

You are perfectly capable of installing a gas hot water heater on your own with out professional help.

you might have to make an extra trip to the hardware store or section of Lowe's or somewhere for some new pipe nipples or flexible copper connections or some such, but other than handling the heavy joker you can do it.

Seal all thread fittings with Teflon tape or pipe sealant

There Must be instructions on the net somewhere.

Screw the warranty... a waste of money 90% of the time.

 

[fgarvb1]

http://www.ehow.com/how_2297502_install-gas-water-heater.html



http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=in...heater&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8

 

[SweetErika]

SweetErika,

You are perfectly capable of installing a gas hot water heater on your own with out professional help.

you might have to make an extra trip to the hardware store or section of Lowe's or somewhere for some new pipe nipples or flexible copper connections or some such, but other than handling the heavy joker you can do it.

Seal all thread fittings with Teflon tape or pipe sealant

There Must be instructions on the net somewhere.

Screw the warranty... a waste of money 90% of the time.

I can't do it, but maybe my dad can. I'm sure he's installed them before, although he probably doesn't have experience with gas heaters.

Considering the weight, maybe it is best for us to have it installed professionally since they'll bring the new one in and haul the old one away for us. If the tank and fittings cost about $500, it might be a bargain to have all the labor and hauling done for an extra $250, no?

I'm inclined to agree with you about the extended warranty, although I admit to being clueless about this subject. I just want to get a good enough unit that I won't have to deal with this issue again for a good 10 years or so (by then, this house may be someone else's problem, anyway).

 

[PeriwinklePink]

I agree about the warranty - waste of money. And although the installation itself is not terribly complicated, removing the old one- especially if there are steps involved- will likely kill you! The sediment accumulated in an old heater makes it VERY heavy.

 

[Earl]

Check with your power company, I had a life time water heater installed by them. Mine is electric, I don't know if they make a gas model. Check out the link

http://www.bgehome.com/baltimore_ga..._replacement_maryland_md.php?section=marathon

It looks like it's only electric but it might be worth it to change over.

 

[milkman469]

I agree with the warranty issue.. dont buy it. If you undertake the challenge of the DIY, Take photos of the old one before you remove it so you can make sure the new one is hooked up in the same way.
Make sure you install a new safety valve! very important. Use the teflon tape and wrap it the right way so it wont unwind when you thread it in.
Check the gas line with a little soapy water after hooking it up and turning the gas back on.
Other than that its really not a difficult install. Takes me about 1.5 hours.

 

[SweetErika]

After reading these replies and talking to Hubby, we're definitely going to pay to have it installed professionally. I'll call the company today, check out the Rheem model they're planning on installing, then go with the $750 option (hopefully soon!) if everything looks good.

 

[SweetErika]

Okay, the water heater guy is coming with a replacement on board in 1-3 hours for a firm estimate.

And that estimate damn well better be about $750 before tax, because we're having a record-breaking heat wave with higher humidity and I need a lukewarm shower or five!

I'll let y'all know how it goes.

 

[Eilan]

Check with your power company, I had a life time water heater installed by them.

We rent a hot-water tank from our power company for about $16 a month. I don't know if it's the most cost-efficient way to go, but if something happens to it, they'll send someone to repair or replace it at no additional cost to us. I don't know if the gas companies do something like this.

I think that, ideally, I'd like a tankless water heater, but we don't have gas.

Hope you can get a lukewarm shower soon, Erika.

 

[SweetErika]

We rent a hot-water tank from our power company for about $16 a month. I don't know if it's the most cost-efficient way to go, but if something happens to it, they'll send someone to repair or replace it at no additional cost to us. I don't know if the gas companies do something like this.

I think that, ideally, I'd like a tankless water heater, but we don't have gas.

Hope you can get a lukewarm shower soon, Erika.

Our electric company and gas company are one and the same.

If a new one cost you about $750 installed, it'd take you about 4 years at $16/month to break even. So, every 4 years, you're basically buying a new water heater. That's some pricey peace of mind!

We only rent two things: our recycle can and our cable modem for about $3/month each. Renting the modem has paid off, since we trade it in for newer and less problematic models a couple of times a year. We're forced to rent the recycle bin.

Okay, so the $750 guy said we needed a specialty short water heater because the venting doesn't have enough rise, AND he'd have to install a 4" vent pipe to the tune of an extra $150. Doesn't that seem high for a 3-foot pipe? The $750 turned into $1000 really fast!

Now I'm back to getting estimates and debating tank vs. tankless.

Does anyone know if the dishwasher needs hot water to run? Or does cold water run in and get heated by the dishwasher itself?

 

[SweetErika]

I should have checked the BBB first. The $750 company is a member, but has had 36 complaints on everything from deceptive practices to poor workmanship since 2004.

Guy #2 is basically our neighbor and going to come after he finishes his other job tonight. His company has an A BBB rating and only one complaint in the past 36 months, although it's not BBB Accredited. But the owner's wife on the phone sounded like she knew her stuff and was a straight shooter, so I have higher hopes for this one.

It's likely going to be about 2 weeks before we get the work done, though, since I'm supposed to leave again tomorrow. At least hotel rooms have showers (and A/C)!

 

[Eilan]

If a new one cost you about $750 installed, it'd take you about 4 years at $16/month to break even. So, every 4 years, you're basically buying a new water heater. That's some pricey peace of mind!

We probably come close to breaking even because we get a break on the electric bill. We've gotten service within 24 hours when we've had problems. It's worth it for us.

 

[sircumvent]

I know prices vary from state to state, but 900 dollars is probably a fair price to replace the water heater and bring it up to code. Most reputable plumbers won't replace one unless they do it to code standards.

 

[SweetErika]

I know prices vary from state to state, but 900 dollars is probably a fair price to replace the water heater and bring it up to code. Most reputable plumbers won't replace one unless they do it to code standards.

Okay.

From what I understand, even a short, "specialty-size" (and not energy-efficient ) unit would only get us closer to code in terms of the venting, but it wouldn't get us to code due to the location and space available for the vent.

So, while changing the ~3' vent pipe from 3 to 4 inches is probably necessary (though I can't see how it'd cost the $150 that one guy quoted me under any circumstances), we can probably make do with a unit that's the same standard height as our current one, like one honest-sounding plumber I spoke to said.

A small overflow tank is also code, but I can't see how one would fit in the space, unless we got a 20-gallon tank or something, which is totally not going to happen considering our usage and number of bathrooms.

 

[sircumvent]

Sounds like you better go with the guy who is not a licensed plumber, but can do the job. If the overflow tank in your area is code than it has to happened for a licensed plumber to do it. You will have to go with a smaller tank or enlarge the area where your water heater is, or put in two water heaters if you have a large house. My GF has a gas 50 gallon for her kitchen and back 2 baths, then she has an electric 30 gallon for her bathroom and laundry.

I am also looking to replace mine and will have to bring it up to our local code if I ever want to sell.

 

[SweetErika]

Sounds like you better go with the guy who is not a licensed plumber, but can do the job. If the overflow tank in your area is code than it has to happened for a licensed plumber to do it. You will have to go with a smaller tank or enlarge the area where your water heater is, or put in two water heaters if you have a large house. My GF has a gas 50 gallon for her kitchen and back 2 baths, then she has an electric 30 gallon for her bathroom and laundry.

I am also looking to replace mine and will have to bring it up to our local code if I ever want to sell.

I'm going with the guy who just came, and his company is licensed and everything. They're going to install the standard size (w/ the overflow tank) to code, fix the venting, and they'll let us install our own pan when they do the switch and take $30 or so off because we have our own earthquake straps.

They'll do everything for under $1000, which is a good deal, AND they have a good track record with the power company and BBB.

I just have to decide whether I want the AO Smith they usually install, or the Rheem that everyone else seems to favor. If the heights are comparable, I have my pick, though the Rheem might cost a bit more.

Our house is pretty small at 1650 sqft. If the family of five we bought from did okay with the 50-gallon tank (and the husband was a plumber, apparently), our family of three will be just fine with the same thing.

 

[fgarvb1]

My wife informed me that when our 50 Gal. gas water goes out that I will be installing on demand water heater or heaters...whatever it takes.

That's a lot of wiring!

The one at our cabin runs off of two double forty amp breakers! (#8 Gage wire)

On the up side if the hot water isn't on you are buying no energy.

 

[SweetErika]

My wife informed me that when our 50 Gal. gas water goes out that I will be installing on demand water heater or heaters...whatever it takes.

That's a lot of wiring!

The one at our cabin runs off of two double forty amp breakers! (#8 Gage wire)

On the up side if the hot water isn't on you are buying no energy.

I seriously thought about tankless, too, since I loved the one we had in Spain. But that one ran on big bottles of propane, not natural gas, didn't involve electricity (we lit the pilot light when we needed hot water), and the water system there is different, I think.

Anyway, the more I researched and talked to people, the more I thought tankless is a poor choice for our current home and climate. Plus, it seems like most companies are raising their prices due to the federal and local rebates for tankless units, e.g., 'If the government is paying 30+ percent, we might as well charge an extra 20+ percent!'

I just think it's best to wait until they've been in American homes longer, the technology for our situations has improved and the prices have come down. We've already seen those things happen in the last 5-10 years, so I'm sure there will be significant change in the next decade or so.

Maybe they work better in your climate and in new homes, but a lot of people all over have had to ditch their new tankless for a new tank because of seasonal water temp variations, poor flow, and inconsistent faucet temps. The professionals I've talked to are selling them because they're a cash cow, but they don't recommend them when it comes right down to it.

 

[Vixandra]

I am sadly so with you on the whole water heater issue. Ours flooded the garage

Ours went out early this month and we bought a GE to replace it. They're manufactured by Rheem. My husband and one of my best guy friends installed it, just hooked up a few hoses. I know it was easy.

Why? Because I disconnected and drained the accursed thing today because a week after we got it, the pilot light wouldn't light. We've been fighting with GE customer service for two weeks and in order to return or exchange it, we need a special code from the manufacturer, Rheem.

I'd go with the non-rheem made unit. I'm soooo not happy with Rheem's customer service its not even funny right now.

 

[SweetErika]

I am sadly so with you on the whole water heater issue. Ours flooded the garage

Ours went out early this month and we bought a GE to replace it. They're manufactured by Rheem. My husband and one of my best guy friends installed it, just hooked up a few hoses. I know it was easy.

Why? Because I disconnected and drained the accursed thing today because a week after we got it, the pilot light wouldn't light. We've been fighting with GE customer service for two weeks and in order to return or exchange it, we need a special code from the manufacturer, Rheem.

I'd go with the non-rheem made unit. I'm soooo not happy with Rheem's customer service its not even funny right now.

I'm sorry for your troubles, but that's really good to know. I saw some big complaints regarding Whirlpool units, but didn't come across anything negative about Rheem until now.

Guy #2 seemed to think pretty highly of A.O. Smith, so maybe that is the way to go, especially since this company is so familiar with them and he knows it'll fit our space.
ETA: Plus, it looks like they've been a BBB member since 1939 and have a very good track record overall.

I'm not sure if you're there yet or not, but we've had great luck in the past using the BBB to mediate a dispute over a faulty product and warranty. That was a hard drive, but they contacted the VP of Customer Relations, and he made sure they sent us a new one within a week.

It looks like Rheem has an abysmal BBB rating and is all about the stall, though it appears they do resolve BBB complaints eventually. Clicky and maybe see if the BBB can expedite your replacement.

 

[pplwatching]

Consumer installed water heaters are generally a disaster waiting to happen. Some people get it right, but many others mistakenly believe that connecting pipes is all there is to it. Connecting pipes is not difficult, but there is usually a calcified section that has to be cut and replaced. Not difficult if you know what you are looking for. Failing to do so can result in damage to the unit, and void the warranty. This may be why you're having so much trouble getting a warranty replacement.

It is also critically important to be sure that the water heater vents properly, both to avoid CO poisoning and to prevent fires. The 'code' Erica is referring to is based on many sad examples of poorly installed ventilation killing people or overheating and causing fires. Newer units generate more exhaust heat, and need more clearance at the vent spacer ring.

Last, but certainly not least, it is critical to check the gas plumbing to the heater for signs of wear or damage, and to check it for leaks.

My husband and one of my best guy friends installed it, just hooked up a few hoses. I know it was easy.

Why? Because I disconnected and drained the accursed thing today because a week after we got it, the pilot light wouldn't light. We've been fighting with GE customer service for two weeks and in order to return or exchange it, we need a special code from the manufacturer, Rheem..

 

[pplwatching]

Guy #2 seemed to think pretty highly of A.O. Smith, so maybe that is the way to go, especially since this company is so familiar with them and he knows it'll fit our space.

When we went to replace ours, we found that every manufacturer has their share of dissatisfied customers. The brands and models sold at home improvement stores seem to top the list of unhappy customers. When I talked to plumbers, I asked them 'who pays for your labor if this unit fails?'. A reputable plumber told me that if I went with his recommendation, there would be no charge for a warranty visit. So, that's the model that I went with.

It is possible that the installer simply has the greatest markup on A.O. Smith. In my case, I figured if the plumber was willing to risk the cost of a warranty job that I should go with his choice.

 

[DWD8]

I Do Not Know What Area Of The Country You Are From. I Have Been In The Construction Business For Over A Half Century. I Recently Remodeled My House And Installed A Tankless Hot Water Heater. It Cost Me $1500 And The Gas Company Wrote Me A Check For $1000 Plud I Will Getan Additional Rebate From The Irs For $600. The Gas Company Will Reun The Gas For Free And If No Gas Is Available I Have Used Electricity. My Hot Water Bill Is No $16. By The Way, It Works Great

 

[SweetErika]

When we went to replace ours, we found that every manufacturer has their share of dissatisfied customers. The brands and models sold at home improvement stores seem to top the list of unhappy customers. When I talked to plumbers, I asked them 'who pays for your labor if this unit fails?'. A reputable plumber told me that if I went with his recommendation, there would be no charge for a warranty visit. So, that's the model that I went with.

It is possible that the installer simply has the greatest markup on A.O. Smith. In my case, I figured if the plumber was willing to risk the cost of a warranty job that I should go with his choice.

That's a good question to ask, and I'll put it on my list prior to choosing the brand and going with this company.

You're right, it could be a profit issue, but I don't think so. The guy who did the estimate was very knowledgeable and said he'd seen a lot of A.O. Smith units last well beyond their expected lives. The one we have now was installed in 1994 or something, so I can believe it. Plus, seeing the BBB reports and Vix's story, I feel more comfortable with Smith than Rheem.

What brand did you end up going with? Is it gas or electric?