what makes a poem good?

[radcliff1234]

Emotion and good lyric makes a poetry good to read ............


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[XXplorher]

There are plenty of things that will mess your sleep up like drugs, stress, actual physiologic disorders. But the waking dream, or the seemingly waking dream(even though you're asleep) is a problem that really hasn't been dealt with since Descartes decided God will handle the devil in the dreaming/deception details.

Richard Feynman claimed he mastered lucid dreaming in college. He said that he got so good at it that his brain had to trick him into thinking he was awake so he'd let his guard down and get some rest. When I was younger I was a pretty decent lucid dreamer. It was a solid game, I could actually manifest myself in certain places with certain people, but usually it was short lived. I'd only get a kiss instead of the full on grope that I wanted, or wouldn't quite make it to the girl's house on my bike once I realized I was dreaming and turned that bike around to take advantage of the state.

I think most people have a similar couple of dreams during their life. You dream you missed a whole bunch of classes or tests just because you forgot you had that class. If you're a guy you have the dream your penis falls off. There are probably more archetypal dreams, but remembering dreams has always been an issue for people. Probably because dreaming has little to no value past being a little part of what it means to have quality sleep.

>But the waking dream, or the seemingly waking dream(even though you're asleep) is a problem that really hasn't been dealt with since Descartes decided God will handle the devil in the dreaming/deception details.

Oh shit, what?.... that’s bad.


>I'd only get a kiss instead of the full on grope that I wanted, or wouldn't quite make it to the girl's house on my bike once I realized I was dreaming and turned that bike around to take advantage of the state.

....Seriously? You thought you’d have new groping abilities due to this ‘mastered’ sleep state?

Okay, the jokes on me again. Har, har, har.


>I think most people have a similar couple of dreams during their life. You dream you missed a whole bunch of classes or tests just because you forgot you had that class. If you're a guy you have the dream your penis falls off. There are probably more archetypal dreams, but remembering dreams has always been an issue for people. Probably because dreaming has little to no value past being a little part of what it means to have quality sleep.

That’s catastrophically inaccurate.

This conversation had nothing to do with WHAT we’re dreaming, so much as lack of sleep – but I’ll entertain it none the less.

My mother did a similar exercise such as you claim; took notes on her dreams every time she woke up. She thought it might help her understand what’s going on behind her mind. Instead, she lost touch with reality and stopped the practice.

So let’s get past your superhero concept. It’s bogus.

I’m sleeping awake, recently. But I have (and have had for the last several years) consistent dreams of shit I need to fix. I’ve been dreaming about family members, high school, former jobs – absolutely everything and anything that qualifies my current concerns... ‘What did any of it matter. Am I relevant? What could I have done differently? Who cares about me?’

This shit will pester in your mind until it’s taken care of. THAT is the function of dreams.

For you to say there’s no relevancy? Is seriously... dreamlike ignorant, mate.

The dreamstate, is a required balance to the awake state. They’re supposed to balance themselves out (Like, there’s a reason we go to sleep). And when one dominates the other... the brain creates alternate states. The ability to discern may overcome the alternate state... or the alternate state may create a fictitious reality. Dreams are there to handle the balance.

Therefore, if you can’t find time to dream? You will lose reality.



It’s not the sedentary state that’s important. You got it wrong.

 

[bflagsst]

XXplorher, you're wrong. Dreaming is a sedentary state.

 

[Angeline]

I think a good poem is one that helps me get laid...

I think you should write a poem about that.

 

[EroticOrogeny]

I think a good poem is one that helps me get laid...

and may have a rather restricted audience.

 

[The_Fool]

I think you should write a poem about that.

I think I did once, I better check.

and may have a rather restricted audience.

Sometimes I write for an audience of one. I don't even give a shit what I spew out.

 

[KillerMuffin]

tell me.

for you, as an individual, how do you KNOW if a poem is good or not?

I've thought about it and thought about it and thought about it.

I used to think it all had to do with use of imagery, sound, line breaks, blah, blah, blah. Now, I'm more inclined to agree with W.S. Merwin. "Good" poetry is defined less by how well one uses the poetic devices available and more by the era in which one is writing poetry.

We live in an era where a sonnet is defined as a poem that is 14 lines long. They just stick the word "modified" in front and they're happy. You can write a "good" sonnet with surrealist imagery, no meter, no rhyme, and no rhetorical structure, just as long as it has 14 lines.

So, what do I, personally think is good poetry? A poem that stands by itself in its era. One that makes sense without the need to google five times per line (I'm looking at you, Eliot!), one that understands itself enough to communicate itself with others, one that uses its devices in the way it intended (whatever devices are required), one that understands that it is a product of humanity and feeds the various needs of humanity in terms of themes, sounds, pictures, patterns, stories, etc.

 

[EroticOrogeny]

I think I did once, I better check.




Sometimes I write for an audience of one. I don't even give a shit what I spew out.

Me too. As long as it works. She's Austrian, so alliteration is a part of their peotic tradition and I'm happy to comply...

 

[Palba_Noruda]

XXplorher, you're wrong. Dreaming is a sedentary state.

Hey b, I agree with you that dreaming is a sedentary state. I would ad that writing is a sedentary state in some respects also, like dreaming.

I hope Angeline will not mind if I use a comment of hers from earlier to show what I mean.

It's funny how that feeling of creativity waxes and wanes, isn't it? I didn't feel like writing anything for well over a year. I did write some poetry, but it was forcing myself because I really felt like I didn't have anything to say. And then we started this move and the traveling and just the change is shaking up something inside me so the poetry is just there again. Weird, but wonderful.

The salient lines, I believe, are ...it was forcing myself...

What exactly is the it?

Something was forcing her self, her inner being was being moved... Is it possible the poems were happening to her, to you Angeline, in the same a way a dream happens to a person?

Or perhaps, it was just another part of Angeline that was making it happen, a part of her that wasn't normally involved with making her poetry.

This is why I believe that dreaming is the human body working, the human body being alive at night. Is it just what happens, along with the heart beat, the breathing, etc?

Likewise, is writing just certain human bodies being alive? Did Angeline's body write those poems, and Angeline's mind then drum up a story to explain what happened?

I think our language has developed such that we tend to give our self a lot of agency. But I believe there are certain things about our self that we can't "control." The heart beat, for instance. You can't really control it, you can modify if a little but it pretty much goes on its own. Breathing is interesting because you kinda can and kinda can't control it. That's why I think breathing is so important in meditation. Then again, by that logic, blinking should also be important in meditation LOL.

The mind etc, is more like breathing I suppose, in that it kinda can and kinda can't be controlled. I have been trying to let the body be alive and channel whatever that is in writing. Okay.

Sorry *babble* had to get that off my chest...

 

[Angeline]

Hey b, I agree with you that dreaming is a sedentary state. I would ad that writing is a sedentary state in some respects also, like dreaming.

I hope Angeline will not mind if I use a comment of hers from earlier to show what I mean.



The salient lines, I believe, are ...it was forcing myself...

What exactly is the it?

Something was forcing her self, her inner being was being moved... Is it possible the poems were happening to her, to you Angeline, in the same a way a dream happens to a person?

Or perhaps, it was just another part of Angeline that was making it happen, a part of her that wasn't normally involved with making her poetry.

This is why I believe that dreaming is the human body working, the human body being alive at night. Is it just what happens, along with the heart beat, the breathing, etc?

Likewise, is writing just certain human bodies being alive? Did Angeline's body write those poems, and Angeline's mind then drum up a story to explain what happened?

I think our language has developed such that we tend to give our self a lot of agency. But I believe there are certain things about our self that we can't "control." The heart beat, for instance. You can't really control it, you can modify if a little but it pretty much goes on its own. Breathing is interesting because you kinda can and kinda can't control it. That's why I think breathing is so important in meditation. Then again, by that logic, blinking should also be important in meditation LOL.

The mind etc, is more like breathing I suppose, in that it kinda can and kinda can't be controlled. I have been trying to let the body be alive and channel whatever that is in writing. Okay.

Sorry *babble* had to get that off my chest...

I should have said "I" instead of "it." And the thing is I am practiced enough (having written a lot of poetry over the years) that I can write a servicable poem, maybe even a pretty good poem just using my conscious imagination and command of language when I'm "forcing myself." But even if no one else notices that I'm forcing it, I know. Those "forced" poems are nowhere near what I can do when the poetry is just flowing through me. When that happens I feel like the barrier between my conscious and subconscious is permeable. It's not that different from how I feel when I meditate, and I am able to successfully focus on my breath instead of my conscious thinking. Being in that state of awareness, even for a few minutes, has an incredible half-life, so that even hours or days later I can write with greater access to more of my consciousness.

So I think I am agreeing with you. And that is enough wacky babble from me for the night.

(PS I'm lovin your poems in the Passion thread.)

 

[butters]

I should have said "I" instead of "it." And the thing is I am practiced enough (having written a lot of poetry over the years) that I can write a servicable poem, maybe even a pretty good poem just using my conscious imagination and command of language when I'm "forcing myself." But even if no one else notices that I'm forcing it, I know. Those "forced" poems are nowhere near what I can do when the poetry is just flowing through me. When that happens I feel like the barrier between my conscious and subconscious is permeable. It's not that different from how I feel when I meditate, and I am able to successfully focus on my breath instead of my conscious thinking. Being in that state of awareness, even for a few minutes, has an incredible half-life, so that even hours or days later I can write with greater access to more of my consciousness.

So I think I am agreeing with you. And that is enough wacky babble from me for the night.

(PS I'm lovin your poems in the Passion thread.)

this

 

[XXplorher]

So, what do I, personally think is good poetry? A poem that stands by itself in its era. One that makes sense without the need to google five times per line (I'm looking at you, Eliot!), one that understands itself enough to communicate itself with others, one that uses its devices in the way it intended (whatever devices are required), one that understands that it is a product of humanity and feeds the various needs of humanity in terms of themes, sounds, pictures, patterns, stories, etc.

That ass is divine...


Does that qualify?

 

[sashpa25]

Emotion isn't only sorrow or love or grief... happiness and elation are emotions too. Humor is a great way to convey emotions to the readers of your poetry. When you are stuck on a poem, try taking a break and write about an opposite emotion instead - be silly, be funny, and the person who reads your poem can have an emotional connection to that too.

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[nerk]

A good poem is like a good bone.
When you get it, you might gnaw on it for a while or bury it right away.
But even long after you've extracted every morsel of meat and marrow from it, you'll still find yourself drawn to it from time to time, compelled to chew it over again and again.

I may be spending too much time with my dog.

 

[butters]

Emotion isn't only sorrow or love or grief... happiness and elation are emotions too. Humor is a great way to convey emotions to the readers of your poetry. When you are stuck on a poem, try taking a break and write about an opposite emotion instead - be silly, be funny, and the person who reads your poem can have an emotional connection to that too.

of course.
humour may be used in various ways, and is the backbone of the limerick - a form i'm kinda fond of.
for me, humour works best when it's a foil to other, deeper emotions; by using it alongside them it manages to highlight both them and itself, lending a greater depth to a write.

A good poem is like a good bone.
When you get it, you might gnaw on it for a while or bury it right away.
But even long after you've extracted every morsel of meat and marrow from it, you'll still find yourself drawn to it from time to time, compelled to chew it over again and again.

I may be spending too much time with my dog.

nice simile, nerk. have you some favourite poems you've discovered over time that you'd suggest we read?

erm, yeah, maybe

 

[nerk]

these are a few of the poems that I keep coming back to over the years:

"the young housewife"
http://www.americanpoems.com/poets/williams/1046
"she being brand"
http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/she-being-brand/
"attack of the crab monsters"
http://www.naic.edu/~gibson/poems/raab1.html



Question for Study:
Why couldn't I find a third poem that uses the word "negligee?"

 

[EroticOrogeny]

these are a few of the poems that I keep coming back to over the years:

"the young housewife"
http://www.americanpoems.com/poets/williams/1046
"she being brand"
http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/she-being-brand/
"attack of the crab monsters"
http://www.naic.edu/~gibson/poems/raab1.html



Question for Study:
Why couldn't I find a third poem that uses the word "negligee?"

Nice poems.
I'm sure there must be lots of poems with negligee in them.

 

[nerk]

Nice poems.
I'm sure there must be lots of poems with negligee in them.

maybe i'll write that annikey and use negligee 5 times.
or 7 if i went for a sestina ...

hmmm

 

[champagne1982]

these are a few of the poems that I keep coming back to over the years:

"the young housewife"
http://www.americanpoems.com/poets/williams/1046
"she being brand"
http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/she-being-brand/
"attack of the crab monsters"
http://www.naic.edu/~gibson/poems/raab1.html



Question for Study:
Why couldn't I find a third poem that uses the word "negligee?"

Check out my poem "The Oil Change" for a bit of a twist on ee cumming's She Being Brand..

 

[nerk]

Check out my poem "The Oil Change" for a bit of a twist on ee cumming's She Being Brand..

to this day, I remember the first time I heard a woman say
"fuck the honda, I need to get oiled and lubed"
but i will find your poem

 

[Angeline]

A good poem is like a good bone.
When you get it, you might gnaw on it for a while or bury it right away.
But even long after you've extracted every morsel of meat and marrow from it, you'll still find yourself drawn to it from time to time, compelled to chew it over again and again.

I may be spending too much time with my dog.

I carried a copy of a poem in my wallet for 18 years. It was one I had discovered in college in an anthology of women poets from Muslim cultures. I absolutely fell in love with this poem immediately upon reading it, and the poet was obscure enough that I doubted I'd find the poem easily anywhere else. So I made a copy and kept it. The copy fell apart in tatters years ago, but now the poet's work is available online, so I still read it from time to time and I still love it.

Oh and for the record, I find hanging out with one's dog to be one of life's better experiences.

 

[bflagsst]

More recently I'd have to say that a good poem would have to contain very intimate details, as little generalization as possible, but still read to certain people like it was about their intimacies. A good poet should be a very good astrologer, the type that gives private readings, not meant for the general masses who get their astrology readings from crappy magazines. It's a conflicting idea. Don't strike general chords using general themes, strike unique chords using your own unique theme and personal details.

 

[Angeline]

More recently I'd have to say that a good poem would have to contain very intimate details, as little generalization as possible, but still read to certain people like it was about their intimacies. A good poet should be a very good astrologer, the type that gives private readings, not meant for the general masses who get their astrology readings from crappy magazines. It's a conflicting idea. Don't strike general chords using general themes, strike unique chords using your own unique theme and personal details.

I really like this explanation--it makes great sense to me. If you think, for example, about Shakespeare's plays and why they have such appeal, still, after hundreds of years, it's because they achieve this balance you've identified. They're intimate explorations of individuals' acts, thoughts and motivations, but they're metaphors for universal experiences. Who doesn't fall in love, feel jealous, commit heinous crimes if only in the imagination, feel guilt? If Shakespeare had written about guilt in a general way, as a concept, who would care or remember? But Lady Mac, washing imaginary blood from her hands over and over: that's an unforgettable image that communicates everything about what guilt feels like.

 

[mynameisben]

If every time you read the poem you hear the voice of Muhammed Ali or Underdog, that's how you know it is good.

 

[champagne1982]

If every time you read the poem you hear the voice of Muhammed Ali or Underdog, that's how you know it is good.

Oh woe is me!
I was waiting around
hoping to see
how to float like a butterfly
and sting like a bee!