Where do we get our sense of right and wrong?

[Todd]

I mean really if we like the animals have simply evovled over the millions and billions of years why do we have a sense that the animals don't After all we evovled from the same rock.

 

[R Nitelight]

Where do we get our sense of right and left?

 

[Weird Harold]

I really shouldn't bother, but...

Everything evolves to best survive it's environment. That does NOT mean everything evolves the same.

Man evolved intelligence where others evolved bigger teeth, or faster muscles.

Todd, you claim to have been raised an atheist and taught evolution. I'm sure you post these stupid questions just to bait people. All you do for me, is expose the stupidity and deliberate misunderstandings promulgated by creationists and make yourself look stupid.

 

[WriterDom]

Evolution and spirituality don't have to be mutually exclusive.

 

[Todd]

Re: I really shouldn't bother, but...

Everything evolves to best survive it's environment. That does NOT mean everything evolves the same.

Man evolved intelligence where others evolved bigger teeth, or faster muscles.

Todd, you claim to have been raised an atheist and taught evolution. I'm sure you post these stupid questions just to bait people. All you do for me, is expose the stupidity and deliberate misunderstandings promulgated by creationists and make yourself look stupid.

And this is a prime example on how anti-christian the world is, I didn't even make inference of christianity or creationism, I didn't even plan on bringing them into the picture.

But as I said and stand by the world as a whole has an anti-christian bias, religions are fine as long as it isn't christianiy. Thank you for demonstrating that oh so well, you make me proud.

Back to the topic my theory putting christianity and religion asisde and looking at things is we observed the cruelty of the animals and have tried to not be like them in the fact of animals destroying, killing one another, eating thier own kin. We 'reasoned' that we were better than that. How we 'reasoned' I am not sure, it may have to be that we had a semi similar speech ability that made us 'feel' above the animals, possibly the 'ability' to do things better thatn animals, fires, weapons etc. Maybe its just the opposable digits.

 

[KillerMuffin]

You're comparing apples to oranges Todd. For some reason we have the most advanced cerebral development. Our cerebrums are far larger than our cerebellums and we are the only species where that is true. Dolphins and other intelligent mammals have proven to have developed cerebrums, but not to the point where it intensely overshadows the cerebellum. A dolphin could not survive without a cerebellum, but a human can and does.

Cerebrum is where human appear to do most of their thinking and where most of our "id" lives. We develop senses of right, wrong, and morality in that part of our brains. Cerebellums are where we do our basic living, where we tell our hearts to beat and lungs to breathe. This is where our most basic instinct is probably located. I'm sure Dr. Clothes Off could tell us more and more accurately.

I make the inference that humans are different from the rest of the animal kingdom due to the presence of our obscenely large cerebrums.

 

[mig]

Todd.--Animals killing other animals for food isn't cruel,its Nature.Cruelty is an human concept that can only be applied to humans.Animals kill to live,not bacause they get a kick out of it.

 

[Blackbich]

Yeah, what mig said.

Because of our cranial development, we have progressed beyond instinct and survival. Humans, over time, developed a sense of right and wrong based on our surroundings.

However, like other species, we adapted to our environment and made up the rules as we evolved. Cannabilism (sp?), slavery, etc., are examples that come immediately to mind for me.

Now that I'm done sounding like a complete fool, I hope this is along the lines of what you were looking for.

 

[Todd]

Yeah, what mig said.

Because of our cranial development, we have progressed beyond instinct and survival. Humans, over time, developed a sense of right and wrong based on our surroundings.

However, like other species, we adapted to our environment and made up the rules as we evolved. Cannabilism (sp?), slavery, etc., are examples that come immediately to mind for me.

Now that I'm done sounding like a complete fool, I hope this is along the lines of what you were looking for.

Nope that is exactly what I am looking for, and no you don't sound like a complete fool. You sound more like a sexy extremely intellegent woman.

 

[Blackbich]

WOO-HOO Todd, you're giving me wood.

 

[alexander tzara]

Cerebrum is where human appear to do most of their thinking and where most of our "id" lives. We develop senses of right, wrong, and morality in that part of our brains.

I'm not sure you're using the term "Id" properly, KM. The Id, is the term given to our primitive drives. That is the part of our consciousness most like other animals. "If left to its own devices, the Id would operate entirely on what Freud called the pleasure principle by which wishes would be instantly gratified." The Id has no sense of right or wrong. Our sexual urges, aggression and other primitive urges come from the Id.

But it's the newer parts of our consciousness - the Ego and the Super-Ego - that really separate us from the animals and give us our sense of right and wrong.

"The ego is the part of our mind that considers the consequences of our actions - for example, that an action motivated by the id might lead to the loss of love or disapproval, or physical danger."

Freud used the metaphor of a horse and a rider: "the id, as the horse, is a powerful animal; the rider, ego, may only have a semblance of control by partly going where the horse wants...

"Within the ego there is a substructure called the super-ego. This is a part of the ego, which is formed by identification with our parents and their authority. It is the part of the mind that judges our thoughts and actions, which can make us feel either approved of and loved, or disapproved of and punished. Often it is the super-ego which will not allow the ego to carry out the wishes of the id."

So, in answer to your question, Todd, human brains have developed in a different way to other animals (as KM pointed out): possibly so that we could adapt to living in more complex groups / societies than other social animals like chimpanzees or lions etc do. I think our sense of right and wrong is partly inherent (we are born with aspects of it) and partly learned: passed through the generations from parents to children. Over tens of thousands of years our species has honed a keen sense of morality - advertised through religions, philosophy, politics, schooling and tradition - so that we can live together in huge, highly structured groups: our societies.

Many animals also live in hierarchical groups but these are less complex than our own. Each individual knows their place in the group and how to behave mainly through instinct, the "communal knowledge" of their species that they are born with (how birds know to migrate at specific times of year) and the way they are "taught" by their parents - eg a lion cub learning that behaving a certain way affords it a cuff round its ear from its mother.

So, I think our sense of right and wrong is just a more sophisticated way for us to know how to live in large groups together.

 

[Todd]

Cerebrum is where human appear to do most of their thinking and where most of our "id" lives. We develop senses of right, wrong, and morality in that part of our brains.

I'm not sure you're using the term "Id" properly, KM. The Id, is the term given to our primitive drives. That is the part of our consciousness most like other animals. "If left to its own devices, the Id would operate entirely on what Freud called the pleasure principle by which wishes would be instantly gratified." The Id has no sense of right or wrong. Our sexual urges, aggression and other primitive urges come from the Id.

But it's the newer parts of our consciousness - the Ego and the Super-Ego - that really separate us from the animals and give us our sense of right and wrong.

"The ego is the part of our mind that considers the consequences of our actions - for example, that an action motivated by the id might lead to the loss of love or disapproval, or physical danger."

Freud used the metaphor of a horse and a rider: "the id, as the horse, is a powerful animal; the rider, ego, may only have a semblance of control by partly going where the horse wants...

"Within the ego there is a substructure called the super-ego. This is a part of the ego, which is formed by identification with our parents and their authority. It is the part of the mind that judges our thoughts and actions, which can make us feel either approved of and loved, or disapproved of and punished. Often it is the super-ego which will not allow the ego to carry out the wishes of the id."

So, in answer to your question, Todd, human brains have developed in a different way to other animals (as KM pointed out): possibly so that we could adapt to living in more complex groups / societies than other social animals like chimpanzees or lions etc do. I think our sense of right and wrong is partly inherent (we are born with aspects of it) and partly learned: passed through the generations from parents to children. Over tens of thousands of years our species has honed a keen sense of morality - advertised through religions, philosophy, politics, schooling and tradition - so that we can live together in huge, highly structured groups: our societies.

Many animals also live in hierarchical groups but these are less complex than our own. Each individual knows their place in the group and how to behave mainly through instinct, the "communal knowledge" of their species that they are born with (how birds know to migrate at specific times of year) and the way they are "taught" by their parents - eg a lion cub learning that behaving a certain way affords it a cuff round its ear from its mother.

So, I think our sense of right and wrong is just a more sophisticated way for us to know how to live in large groups together.

Thank you that was a very well written Mini-thesis. I appreciate the effort put forth.

That wasn't so hard to do with out name calling now was it?

 

[Madame Pandora]

I'm sure you post these stupid questions just to bait people.

And this is a prime example on how anti-christian the world is, I didn't even make inference of christianity or creationism, I didn't even plan on bringing them into the picture.

But as I said and stand by the world as a whole has an anti-christian bias, religions are fine as long as it isn't christianiy. Thank you for demonstrating that oh so well, you make me proud.

Rant, rant, rant, etc., etc., etc….

HAROLD! I can’t believe it. Honey, c'on over here and let me get that hook out of your lip…want me to kiss it and make it better?

Bottom line: Our sense of right and wrong comes from many different sources. Part of is evolves over time with society, part of it is influenced by our individual upbringing and part of it alters as we live out our experiences and become more aware of the world around us.

BTW - Animals DO have a sense of "right" and "wrong" which alters from species and experience. It is only because we humans pride ourselves on our intelligence that we assume our sense of right and wrong must be more developed than theirs.

Nice try, Todd.

MP

 

[Comshaw]

Initially posted by Todd

I mean really if we like the animals have simply evolved over the millions and billions of years why do we have a sense that the animals don't After all we evolved from the same rock.

Why don't we have claws like the Tiger? Or the ability to chance or color like the Chameleon? Or poison like the Snake?
Because that wasn't the tools we developed to survive. If you follow the evolution theory, our ancestors were a relatively weak, slow being with very little sense of smell and hearing. We had to develop something to enable us to survive. We as a species developed our brain, which in turn allowed us to build tools, work in a cooperative manner and generally out think the carnivores that surrounded us, wanting to make a meal from our carcass. Over time we pasted beyond just survival into the land of cognitive thought.
Right and wrong, as we use the term here, aren't instinctive, they are a learned trait. Otherwise how do you explain cannibals, Hitler, Pol Pot and others along those lines? Most of us see their actions as wrong, they did not. The reason is that those things are learned not instinctive. If a person was raised from an infant to think that killing everyone strange to them was natural, that would be in the "right" column for them. It is definitely in the "wrong" column for us.
Our brains have developed to the point where we can grasp abstract concepts. "Right", "wrong", "Law", "Order", "Good", "Bad", these are just a few things we can understand that an animal has no clue of.
So to get back to my point, the reason is because we developed our brain as a means of surviving. In time it grew beyond that to what we have today.

Posted by Todd:

And this is a prime example on how anti-christian the world is, I didn't even make inference of christianity or creationism, I didn't even plan on bringing them into the picture.

As for this quote, did I miss the third alternative to creation and evolution? If not then you were trying, in a round about way, to bring creationism into this argument.
Most everyone realized that and ignored it. I, on the other hand, just couldn't abstain from pointing out the obvious.

Comshaw









Perhaps I missed the third alternative for creation and evolution?

 

[Todd]

Perhaps I missed the third alternative for creation and evolution?

Feel free to add the tird alternative, nobody to stop you, well the trolls might but nobody pays attention to them anyways.

I was looking at evolution specifically cause that is what is taught in the school text books, but if you add the thrid alternative it will make this a more rounded topic, so rock on.

 

[Todd]

I'm sure you post these stupid questions just to bait people.

And this is a prime example on how anti-christian the world is, I didn't even make inference of christianity or creationism, I didn't even plan on bringing them into the picture.

But as I said and stand by the world as a whole has an anti-christian bias, religions are fine as long as it isn't christianiy. Thank you for demonstrating that oh so well, you make me proud.

Rant, rant, rant, etc., etc., etc….

Nice try, Todd.

MP

I see its the old double standard is it MP? I am to sit with my thumbs up my ass while someone says something but its ok for you to write a 50 page diasertion if a person spells something wrong. Good to know thanks for the update MP

 

[KillerMuffin]

Sure you did Comshaw. A giant turtle farted and lo' the universe was created.

 

[Madame Pandora]

I see its the old double standard is it MP? I am to sit with my thumbs up my ass while someone says something but its ok for you to write a 50 page diasertion if a person spells something wrong. Good to know thanks for the update MP

Once more -

Nice try, Todd.

MP

 

[Kuddles]

Where did we get the sense of right and wrong...

well....it's about the same as laboratory rats...only difference is they get electrical shocks in their tests and we got reprimanded or spanked or sent to our rooms or "the speech"...

if you didn't get reprimanded or spanked it must be right...

if you got reprimanded or spanked or "the speech" from your parents well then it must be wrong...

 

[Todd]

Re: Where did we get the sense of right and wrong...

well....it's about the same as laboratory rats...only difference is they get electrical shocks in their tests and we got reprimanded or spanked or sent to our rooms or "the speech"...

if you didn't get reprimanded or spanked it must be right...

if you got reprimanded or spanked or "the speech" from your parents well then it must be wrong...

well that is good for the contemproary we but what of the ancient we that established what activities got a speech and which activities didn't get the speech.

 

[DevilMayCare]

Re: Re: Where did we get the sense of right and wrong...

well that is good for the contemproary we but what of the ancient we that established what activities got a speech and which activities didn't get the speech. [/B]

Todd, you might be interested in a book by Dr. Andrew Newberg - Why God Won't Go Away: Brain Science and the Biology of Belief. I've no doubt you're serious in your attempts to find explanations for all the wondrous things of this world. I understand the idea of "God" is so compelling. Clearly there are many people on this board who are comfortable with things just being the way they are without relying on a "first cause." IMHO looking at the question of how we determine what is right and wrong is monstrously loaded since we human beings have such a remarkable capacity to deceive ourselves of our motives. We could ask the old question about how many people have been tortured and killed through history in the name of religious belief. I don't want to get the board started on that one though.

And Alexander, thanks for the lovely discourse. I for one enjoyed it.

 

[Kuddles]

Well...

it might have gone something like this...


the caveboy went out with cavefather to hunt for dinner...after a long day of stalking and sneaking through the wild...they happened upon some very flavorful herd of small dinosaurs...while cavefather was preparing to sneak up and use his club for the kill...cavejunior had already snuck up on one and discovered that they responded well to being petted...well now imagine cavefather's total shock, disgust, and dismay at his sons actions....why he would be the laugh back at the cavedwellings by all the other cavefathers when they found out his son was petting dino...that is where the first speech evolved in regards to "STOP PLAYING WITH YOUR FOOD!"

 

[His Whimsicality]

Re: Re: I really shouldn't bother, but...

...religion asisde and looking at things is we observed the cruelty of the animals and have tried to not be like them... [/B]

 

[His Whimsicality]

Re: Re: I really shouldn't bother, but...

...religion asisde and looking at things is we observed the cruelty of the animals and have tried to not be like them... [/B]

The cruelty of animals? I don´t like the sound of that. Concerning cruelty, humans rank on 1st place.

 

[His Whimsicality]

Oh, and Todd...

I mean really if we like the animals have simply evovled over the millions and billions of years why do we have a sense that the animals don't After all we evovled from the same rock.

What sort of question is that? There´s a saying that goes that there are no stupid questions, only those not asked - but, for heavens sake, where do you live?

Ever heard the term 'Fitness for Survival'?