Whitewashing comments

[gauchecritic]

You signed such a contract? Hardly. It don't exist. The Web site gives the author a delete button. You thought that was a wall ornament?

actually, in effect, I think I did. Not that I read such a document but I did agree to certain rules and regulations when I posted my stories.

You want to look up "contract" now or have you not done with "pedant" yet?

Again, you are just in this for the harrassment value, right?

Just say the safe word. (or alternatively carry on being sr)

 

[gauchecritic]

Not remotely relevant to anything I've posted here. Once again an example of your "claim a position/statement that hasn't been posted" and then get nasty with harrassment and dissembling "discussion" technique.

You're quite a piece of work.

Again, perhaps you don't care about the constructive development of writers posting stories here. I do. So, sue me.

Beyond that, I've got your number and have weathered more creative trolls than you.

Everything is relevant. You just haven't spotted it.

 

[Weird Harold]

Now, I can understand if an author deletes comments that are indulgences in senseless profanity.

Just as an observation, if I were to delete all of the comments that contained senseless profanity from the stories I read here, the only thing left would be senseless "praise." Any real criticism in the public comments is vanishingly rare.

I specified the stories that I read here, because I don't read my own stories once they're posted and couldn't tell you if the public comments on them are good or bad, relevant or irrelevant -- or even if they have more than the two or three most recent comments that show at the end of the story.

 

[Oli72]

Sounds nice, but again, it presupposes that criticism is legitimate (and/or helpful) just because it's given. I don't see much evidence of posters running around here who have MFAs in creative writing (nor are they needed, IMO. There's a whole range of reader and writer interest here; there's no reason why all stories should be striving for acceptance at the New Yorker).

It presupposes no such thing. Sorry, but you're completely off the wall here. If someone brings his genuine impression of the story and explains why it didn't convince him, that is perfectly valid criticism. As I pointed out in the original posting, the author is free to choose if this criticism falls into the category "Well, I can't please everyone" or if the critic might actually have a point. Your remark that the critic is unlikely to have an MFA in creative writing is, sorry, a lame excuse because it's completely and utterly irrelevant. You don't need qualification in creative writing to discern inconsistencies and/or flaws in logic.

I think it would be constructive to be able to see exactly what story(ies) set Oli72 off on this posting to begin with--and the wording of Oli72's criticism that was whitewashed away.

Why? Because it would allow you to divert attention from the general issue to a specific one? Sorry, but I find your style of argumentation thoroughly unconvincing. You're constructing strawman after strawman for the sheer sake of being able to disagree. It's all nice and fine to be an advocatus diaboli, but one should at least discuss the same issue and not some fictious other issue as the rest in the discussion.

 

[Oli72]

And, furthermore, yes, in fact, expertise does matter in this. It may please the commenter to pretend knowledge he/she doesn't have, but that can very easily be damaging to the developing story writer. You may blow that off; I don't. I have more concern for developing writers than that.

Whether expertise matters or not, and expertise in what, is entirely dependent on the specific issues raised. You're still creating very limited artificial scenarios just in order to have something you can argue against.

 

[sr71plt]

Whether expertise matters or not, and expertise in what, is entirely dependent on the specific issues raised. You're still creating very limited artificial scenarios just in order to have something you can argue against.

Sorry, but I don't think so. There must be some reason why you put energy into a story contributor erasing comments on a story--enough energy to start a thread on the forum about it. Did this or did this not happen to a comment you put on a story? If so, what was the story and what was your comment? You are asking us to look at only one side of the coin--and to make a judgment (actually to agree with you) with only a partial description of the foundation of the issue you are raising. Why should we not see both sides? Why is it wrong to not make judgments on this forum without seeing more than one side of an issue and why are posters ridiculed and harrassed for taking a balanced approach to the threads? If you are just theorizing, even then, why should we look at only one side of the coin? I think it's you rather than me who is insisting on looking at less than the whole.

You brought this up and gave an incomplete scenario. I am asking for the concrete--you are the one sticking to an artificial scenario, aren't you?

 

[sr71plt]

I guess the bottom line is when the assertion is sketchy and one-sided, I'll go with the story writer here until I see evidence otherwise. They're the ones who put in the work and made the contribution to the Web site.

 

[starrkers]

As I said before, you don't have to leave a comment that is removed to know an author is deleting less than glowing comments.

 

[sr71plt]

As I said before, you don't have to leave a comment that is removed to know an author is deleting less than glowing comments.

I didn't notice you posting that before, but OK, true. You have to have a lot of invested energy to care, though--either way--and to make a point of it on the forum.

I'd still go with the story authors myself until/unless I saw some evidence otherwise. And I continue unconvinced that all criticism is ipso facto valid and/or legitimate just because it was manufactured. I think that's a pretty uninformed assertion myself.

 

[CWatson]

Sounds nice, but again, it presupposes that criticism is legitimate (and/or helpful) just because it's given.

That's a very good point, and indicates that I didn't explain it properly. (Whoops! )

You're absolutely right that any given piece of criticism may be totally irrelevant. Perhaps The Reader isn't reading the story that was actually wrote. Perhaps it's complaining about something that was deliberate (this has happened to me) and thus wouldn't be changed even if the complaint was valid. Perhaps it's just off-the-wall.

But an author probably would not delete such comments.

If someone comes up to you and say, "How dare you! Damn you Martians! Coming here to steal our hamsters! Well, I'M onto you! I've got your number! I'll be dogging you to the end of your days!" If someone comes up to you and says that, do you take it seriously? Of course not. It's completely irrelevant, it has no chance of being true! (In fact, you probably stifle a laugh, apologize for upsetting him and walk away. Or maybe just flip him off. But let's assume you're being polite. ) It doesn't bother you, so you pay it no mind.

But, on the other hand, if someone comes up to you and says something that (by sheer coincidence) (or not) happens to play to your own personal insecurities, how do you feel? For me, it'd be if some stranger suddenly told me that I was going to die a friendless, deserted virgin--which, for those who want to unnerve me, is more-or-less my greatest fear in all the world. No matter who said this, and no matter what their motive for saying it, it would strike a chord with me, because I was worried about it already.

I think it's the same with "whitewashed" comments. The nonsense stuff we ignore, because it's nonsense, or repost here because it's funny. But the things that resonate with us, especially with our insecurities, are the things we shut our eyes towards. Long story short: if it bothered you, it was true. And by deleting the comment, you've as good as admitted it.

At least, that's how I see it. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

My favorite are the Loving Wives comments. Oh my good lord do they get crazy. And there's one guy who just insists that every woman in a LW story get pregnant. He started reading something of mine that wasn't in the LW category, and insisted there, too! It's amusing to me when people's pathologies sneak in there. I leave them up, for the most part. Unless they devolve into personal attacks. Then they're outta there.

(sheesh I should go check mine... I haven't checked comments on my stories in months!)

 

[kromen]

The worst comments I ever got contained the phrase "wordy" and "flat writing". I guess I got lucky. Unless someone attacks me personally, I'll leave it up if only to correct the typos. We all know trolls can't spell. Shit, I mocked the Troll God. Here they come.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I got this in private e-mail: "I came out of my shorts at 13 and fucked your mother you sick fuck cunt!I bet you are one pretty bitch by now."

If the person had posted it publicly, I would have deleted it, because I don't think that my readers should have to read that. If it had been a negative comment on the story, that would have been one thing, but this isn't about the story and doesn't even really make sense.

Oh, I've met that reader, too!

What OP needs to remember is that lit is an amateur site, and for the most part, amateurs will behave like amateurs.

 

[DeeZire]

I got this in private e-mail: "I came out of my shorts at 13 and fucked your mother you sick fuck cunt!I bet you are one pretty bitch by now."

If the person had posted it publicly, I would have deleted it, because I don't think that my readers should have to read that....

I think my readers would have loved this comment, but I only say that because I assume my readers are all as sick and twisted as I am.

I really enjoy crude, ignorant comments. They make me feel so civilized and smart - plus, they can be helpful in conjuring up a crude, ignorant character for a story.

 

[fifty5]

Now, I can understand if an author deletes comments that are indulgences in senseless profanity. What I cannot understand is authors that delete comments that provide genuine criticisim. Yes, it's looks great if everyone gave you 100%, but if the only way to get there is to throw everyone out who wasn't really convinced, what credibility does such a score enjoy? If a story doesn't compute for me and I specifically state what the factors are that defy my suspension of disbelief, why is it such a bad, bad thing to point this out?

I think it suggests a great deal of personal insecurity if the fact that they cannot please everyone is so offensive to some authors. It should be obvious that not every story will please everyone -it's nigh impossible to always make everyone content. So if someone didn't like some parts of your story, ponder if they might have a point, weigh their arguments, and if you come to the conclusion that you did everything alright and the story apparently simply wasn't to the critics' taste, have the eminence to stand above the criticism. Whitewashing the comments in my eyes only ruins your own credibility.

Hi Oli,

Can I ask why it matters to you so much (a genuine question, not meant as a put down in any shape or form)?

And the same question for Gauche and sr...

My own personal decision is on the same lines as most others posted here - leave 'em up - but I don't see why anyone else's decision is anyone else's business than that author's.

At the extreme, you can switch off comments. I don't because I (yes, just me) want to see what anyone else is prepared to write about my stuff.

And, of course my opinion (that's right, I'm only writing here about ME) was formed by the fact that the earliest comments I got were compliments.

If someone else doesn't want feedback, I can't see that that is any of my business - I don't see why or from what I get any right to judge them.

The same sort of thing applies to deleting individual comments: if a writer wants to do that, why shouldn't they?

After all.....

Scenario 1: "Normal"
The comments are only visible when one gets to the end of a story, so if you read the story, you don't see the comments until you've finished reading. Comments have no advance publicity value at all. It's this scenario that interests me: feedback from folk who've actually read what I've written. From this POV, whether others read the comments is irrelevant. I leave them up so I can read them again, maybe years later. If someone else doesn't want to read their feedback again, why not delete them?

Scenario 2: "Trolls"
Of course it is perfectly possible to ignore the story, just drag down the scroll-bar, push the [End] key, or whatever, and then post a comment. In that case, the comment is likely to betray the fact that the poster hasn't read the story. To me (yes, once again I'm just talking about myself) that would probably just be funny: exposing the poster to ridicule, not me or my story . To others, that could well be offensive, which seems to me a perfectly valid reason to delete the comment.

Scenario 3: "Earnest Trolls"
By this I mean malevolent folk who deliberately open up stories, purely for the thrill (I assume they get a thrill) of posting bad-mouth stuff. It hasn't happened to me yet, but if it did, (when it does?) I'd probably delete those. This scenario has nothing to say about my writing, so I don't see such stuff as having any relevance to anyone who is interested in what I've written; I'd see deletion as protecting genuine readers from irrelevant junk.

What any one else does seems to me to be up to them - and I'm gob-smacked at any other opinion.

What also gob-smacks me is that with only half a dozen stories posted, almost 115,000 folk have viewed them, of those, only 263 have bothered to vote and of those, only 27 posted a comment - 0.023%.

The big thing I've learned from the voters/commenters has actually been about publishing rather then writing: I made the mistake of posting a story that had no actual sex without announcing that up front. Before the penny dropped, I'd had 40 votes and 4 comments that gave it a rating of 2.55. On the other 5, I average a rating of 4.5024 and most of the other comments flatter my ego just as much.

That tells you where I'm coming from. I'm here to stroke my ego and I've been lucky enough to get my wish granted. That allows me to be amused by: "Pretty much the worst story I have ever read on Literotica."

The fact that my blunder gave such a different outcome gives me lots of sympathy with others who haven't been so lucky. Those 4 comments gave me feedback about the posters rather than about the story. The same goes for the rating. I leave that story up in the hope of some genuine lit-crit feedback someday. Everything there is true, which means I can't give away any more information, but for me it invokes a moment in time. It would be really great to read whether that's just because I was there - and know everything that isn't written - or whether I managed to extract the essence, as I hoped, so that a reader who doesn't know the rest can identify with it.

For the last time, this post is about me, but I hope it explains why I think any writer's decision about pulling PCs is entirely up to them.

 

[SeaCat]

The only comment I have ever removed was a personal attack on me. Then I decided what the hell, let the trolls and others have their fun.

Then again I have this strange philosophy about my writing. I write to tell a story and have fun while doing it. If others enjoy it that's great. If they don't oh well.

If it's constructive criticism then I'll take it to heart. If it's just a troll I'll read it and laugh.

Then again I'm not a published author and know I never will be one.

Cat

 

[sr71plt]

I think any writer's decision about pulling PCs is entirely up to them.

I agree with this. Beyond that, I can't see why you're asking me to explain anything.

 

[Oli72]

Sorry, but I don't think so.

Sorry, but facts are facts. If you think the world is flat, it doesn't matter a bit.

There must be some reason why you put energy into a story contributor erasing comments on a story--enough energy to start a thread on the forum about it. Did this or did this not happen to a comment you put on a story? If so, what was the story and what was your comment?

What does it matter if it happened to me or if I saw it happen to someone else and I noticed? What does it matter if it happened on one story, two or a dozen?

You are asking us to look at only one side of the coin--and to make a judgment (actually to agree with you) with only a partial description of the foundation of the issue you are raising.

I'm doing no such thing. Once again, you're simply inventing situations just to have something to say.

Why should we not see both sides? Why is it wrong to not make judgments on this forum without seeing more than one side of an issue and why are posters ridiculed and harrassed for taking a balanced approach to the threads? If you are just theorizing, even then, why should we look at only one side of the coin? I think it's you rather than me who is insisting on looking at less than the whole.

Since all you are talking about is specific, invented situations, rather than the abstract issue, this is truly a hilarious claim. Neither did I ask not to see both sides nor did you ask to see the whole, you narrowed the issue down to very specific situations just to have a case. Can you actually keep a straight face through such a fairy tale?

You brought this up and gave an incomplete scenario. I am asking for the concrete--you are the one sticking to an artificial scenario, aren't you?

No, I'm not -because I am not sticking to a scenario at all. Now please, either cease making things up just to have something to say or give us a break.

 

[sr71plt]

Sorry, but facts are facts. If you think the world is flat, it doesn't matter a bit.




What does it matter if it happened to me or if I saw it happen to someone else and I noticed? What does it matter if it happened on one story, two or a dozen?




I'm doing no such thing. Once again, you're simply inventing situations just to have something to say.



Since all you are talking about is specific, invented situations, rather than the abstract issue, this is truly a hilarious claim. Neither did I ask not to see both sides nor did you ask to see the whole, you narrowed the issue down to very specific situations just to have a case. Can you actually keep a straight face through such a fairy tale?



No, I'm not -because I am not sticking to a scenario at all. Now please, either cease making things up just to have something to say or give us a break.

You certainly seem to be all anxious that your golden comments on stories here not be lost to the world. Why don't you just keep posting the comment. I promise on the thirty-sixth time that unthankful author wipes it away, we'll string him up on an oak tree branch. That'll show him for wiping out your brilliant comments.

If you think I have less and less sympathy for you as this goes on, you might be right.

 

[Oli72]

Hi Oli,

Can I ask why it matters to you so much (a genuine question, not meant as a put down in any shape or form)?

First of all, it reeks of censorship, which on a site such as this I have precious little understanding for. Second, I hate people "breeding" an entourage of claqueurs. Contrary to SR71's claims, it's bad for people's development if all they get is rave reviews telling them how great everything is -why should they change anything?- and a comment deleted is a comment all too soon forgotten.

My own personal decision is on the same lines as most others posted here - leave 'em up - but I don't see why anyone else's decision is anyone else's business than that author's.

The author of the story is not the author of the criticism. And unless one attacks the other in an entirely unjustified and personal manner, I don't see what justifies not letting that opinion stand. What would you think of a policy that would allow people to simply send a story into oblivion if they don't like it?

If someone else doesn't want feedback, I can't see that that is any of my business - I don't see why or from what I get any right to judge them.

The same sort of thing applies to deleting individual comments: if a writer wants to do that, why shouldn't they?

Because it's an entirely different issue not to provide space for something to be written and actually deleting it?

Scenario 1: "Normal"
The comments are only visible when one gets to the end of a story, so if you read the story, you don't see the comments until you've finished reading. Comments have no advance publicity value at all. It's this scenario that interests me: feedback from folk who've actually read what I've written. From this POV, whether others read the comments is irrelevant. I leave them up so I can read them again, maybe years later. If someone else doesn't want to read their feedback again, why not delete them?

There's a difference between "deleting them" and "deleting them selectively".

 

[Oli72]

You certainly seem to be all anxious that your golden comments on stories here not be lost to the world.

Except that I'm not just talking about my comments.

If you think I have less and less sympathy for you as this goes on, you might be right.

Guess what, the same holds true vice versa. After all, persistent dishonesty such as yours is rarely fit to generate sympathy. Hint: If you have to lie to make a case, you're not making a very good case.

 

[Darkniciad]

Okay, how about something for a yardstick, Oli.

Do you consider these constructive?

Idiot
His wife is a fucking slut he buys pussy one time and their even, what a crock of shit.

Retarded People
Are not a turn on, and the hubbie has mental issues.

Why on earth have you made the wife so stupid. All women would have realised what was happening a long time ago. And as for the husband he is just as stupid as the wife. You obviously want him to be humiliated and you want to turn the wife in to a slut. But it's your story and you will write what you like. Well I guess sluts and cucks will like this type of story.

Pity...
The writing of the story is good. It's a pity to waste your talent on such selfish people who are not really interested in anything but themselves. The hell with their husbands, just give me my pleasure and let the chips fall where they may. Very shallow and selfish people. So continue if you wish but maybe try and salvage some of the people...

This is a story about people I'm glad I don't know. I don't care what the fuck you have them do because their is no love or respect here just wanton sex just for the sake of fucking. If this were true the people you would feel sory for are the kids. Continue or flush them all, I don't care.

 

[sr71plt]

Except that I'm not just talking about my comments.



Guess what, the same holds true vice versa. After all, persistent dishonesty such as yours is rarely fit to generate sympathy. Hint: If you have to lie to make a case, you're not making a very good case.

Well, as noted several times, the Web site gives the author the ability to delete comments (even gives the author the ability to deny comments and votes altogether) and provides no limitations on the use of that.

Also, as noted several times, we're not voting on Pultizer Prizes here--and the readers, as a whole, aren't any better or more relevant at giving constructive comments than the writers are in writing stories. Beyond that, where does it say on the home page that this is a writing development site? This is a story sharing site. There's no particular reason to assume the story writers want to have their stories criticized as writing exercises unless they've asked for that. And it's presumptive of a commenter to assume either that critical comment is welcome or that they are the one's elected to give it--at least to the point of getting pushy about their brilliant critique having to be preserved. Gauch's claim that there is some sort of contract that the story writers have to entertain negative comment is nonsense--belied by the power of the delete button given to authors by the Web site.

If comments are ones the author could use, they will be taken on board whether or not they are deleted. Anything beyond that is the commenter's vanity for having some sort of unhealthy need for the world to see how brilliant the commenter is (or thinks he/she is).

As also noted here, this is just plain old marketing. When publishers get book reviews, do you think they print the unfavorable ones on their book jackets?

Authors want their stories to be read. They put effort into it--far more than some yokel who comes along and slams their story has put into it. It's sort of dumb to demand that any old comment be preserved just because it was slapped on the story.

And, finally, in all of this you haven't provided any meat that makes me want to give you any more credence than I'd give a story author (rather less, actually, because you're a little rabid on the subject) on whether a comment was justifiably wiped off or not--and more posters than I have given examples of malicious or misguided or irrelvant comments that have no reason to breathe.

If it tears you apart--which it obviously does as compulsive and persistent as you are to see "gross injustice" in it--just don't read the stories. Go read the New Yorker and send your critiques to the editor. (Dollars to donuts they won't print them either.)

If you stay and want to comment, be aware that the most constructive help you could give if you have something negative to say is to PM or e-mail the author directly--that way it isn't just you wanting to preen in the spotlight of your superior knowledge (and, presumably, self-assessed writing ability).

 

[bronzeage]

Now, I can understand if an author deletes comments that are indulgences in senseless profanity. What I cannot understand is authors that delete comments that provide genuine criticisim. Yes, it's looks great if everyone gave you 100%, but if the only way to get there is to throw everyone out who wasn't really convinced, what credibility does such a score enjoy? If a story doesn't compute for me and I specifically state what the factors are that defy my suspension of disbelief, why is it such a bad, bad thing to point this out?

I think it suggests a great deal of personal insecurity if the fact that they cannot please everyone is so offensive to some authors. It should be obvious that not every story will please everyone -it's nigh impossible to always make everyone content. So if someone didn't like some parts of your story, ponder if they might have a point, weigh their arguments, and if you come to the conclusion that you did everything alright and the story apparently simply wasn't to the critics' taste, have the eminence to stand above the criticism. Whitewashing the comments in my eyes only ruins your own credibility.

I suppose someone deleted a comment you made on their story.

I can't imagine how you would notice if someone elses comment is deleted.

 

[fieryjen]

I suppose someone deleted a comment you made on their story.

I can't imagine how you would notice if someone elses comment is deleted.

That's been stated several times in this thread.

Sometimes, a comment might have been deleted, however, other commenters might have reacted to that first comment, and their reactions would still be displayed in the comments section, leading you to notice that something is missing. I've seen it happen, and I know some others have as well.