Why is it cool…

[Liar]

You should be!

Uuh. why? He had something to say and he said it.

Who made you breakfast coffee with bitter beans today, baby?

 

[Guest]

Uuh. why? He had something to say and he said it.

Who made you breakfast coffee with bitter beans today, baby?

have i ever told you that i love you?
no?
i was remiss.

 

[tolyk]

IT?!

Seriously, Svenska, that was below the belt.

I think she was trying to be funny.

 

[yui]

have i ever told you that i love you?
no?
i was remiss.

*singing* "Have I told you lately that I love you..."

What she said.

 

[cantdog]

There's a great number of men who abuse women; who torture them, beat them up, murder them, mutilize them, treat them like they're idiots, etc, etc, etc. I don't know the exact number, so I can't say if these men are a majority or not.
I THINK that on a scale from Good Guy to Asshole, there are an equal amount of assholes as three are Good Guys - and then we have the majority in between these extremes, where we have men who aren't really assholes, because they don't physically HURT a woman, but they're definitely not good guys either.
In this group, we find the men who sit in the shadow all day while the women work and sweat in the fields, and as soon as payday comes, the same men take the money and buys booze and hookers for it, defending themselves with the words that there's no point giving money to women, they'll just waste it on lipstick.
In this group, we also find the principals of universities who tell female students that they shouldn't be in this class; they're taking up the place where the university COULD have placed a man, ie someone who will not just play around and then waste all the education to get married and stay home with the kids.
In this group, we find the Pentagon officers who complained that Pentagon had become nothing but a ladies' social club, when a total of 2(!) out of 100 were women.

With a great amount of men being assholes, and an even bigger amount of men being asshole-wannabes, you'll have to excuse us that we don't ALWAYS have the energy to chant the mandatory "now-I-KNOW-that-not-all-men-are-assholes-but-SOME-of-them-are...", and just summon up the whole gender as "assholes". OK?

You know all the T-shirt is, that is, the original T-shirt, now, apart from all the seething resentment and shit-- all the T-shirt is is a substitution of the word "boys" for the word "girls."

Prepubescent boys say that shit all the time. One of the first responding to this thread (Hellbaby) tried to point that out. They throw snowballs, they make no girls allowed in the treehouse.

Rocks is serious hurt, and maybe the t-shirt dudes should have used something less Biblical. But that's all the T-shirt was doing. It's a gender reversal about the attitudes of prepubescent boys. Cooties, all that. Get up.

 

[yui]

You know all the T-shirt is, that is, the original T-shirt, now, apart from all the seething resentment and shit-- all the T-shirt is is a substitution of the word "boys" for the word "girls."

Prepubescent boys say that shit all the time. One of the first responding to this thread (Hellbaby) tried to point that out. They throw snowballs, they make no girls allowed in the treehouse.

Rocks is serious hurt, and maybe the t-shirt dudes should have used something less Biblical. But that's all the T-shirt was doing. It's a gender reversal about the attitudes of prepubescent boys. Cooties, all that. Get up.

I'll love you, too, okay?

 

[Huckleman2000]

Awwww... how cute. It learns!

You owe me a new keyboard, Svenskaflicka!

That's the funniest retort I've read on here ever! (not that I'm condoning that sort of thing... )

 

[cantdog]

Thanks, yui. I think.

I've done posters and t-shirt designs. I'm pretty sure of my ground about this. What I can't vouch for is the attitude of the wearer of the shirt. You know? It may well be much the same as Svenskaflicka's, a sort of summation of all the hurt inflicted by sexism. Which is plenty. A lot of those prepubescent boys never did learn any respect for women. Some of these otherwise perfectly grown men are on the boards here at Lit, and a couple are regular AH posters. It gets old, being disrespected.

It gets real old, real quick, and it never feels any better.

The t-shirt probably sells to women who are fed up with it. I don't play with that kind of shit with my t-shirt designs, but in my teens, I did with some of my posters. "Poison right back at ya" isn't very constructive, but it can be a release. I got $5 a poster, in those days, one-of-a-kind posters, cut paper on poster board. The better sellers were the psychedelia ones, but social things would turn a buck, and I loved powerful symbols in those days. Lenin's face. The peace symbol. Turn a peace symbol upside down and it looks like a pussy, for instance.

I didn't take a position much then. The amazing power of just a few simple shapes intrigued me. I now see that I was just fanning flames, sometimes.

White males ought to realize that there is a lot of resentment out there. It is not just history, as Cat seems to want to think. A lot of the damage is still being inflicted, daily, upon those who just didn't happen to be born white males.

If a couple of white males feel, all of a sudden, that they seem to be the "only group it's still okay to throw things at," they ought to try living in this society without that advantage for a month or two.

 

[Huckleman2000]

You know all the T-shirt is, that is, the original T-shirt, now, apart from all the seething resentment and shit-- all the T-shirt is is a substitution of the word "boys" for the word "girls."

Prepubescent boys say that shit all the time. One of the first responding to this thread (Hellbaby) tried to point that out. They throw snowballs, they make no girls allowed in the treehouse.

Rocks is serious hurt, and maybe the t-shirt dudes should have used something less Biblical. But that's all the T-shirt was doing. It's a gender reversal about the attitudes of prepubescent boys. Cooties, all that. Get up.

at the risk of offending everyone I haven't already....

T-shirt, shmee-shirt.

I think most men know what RG was getting at here; if you don't, spend an afternoon with commercials on daytime television. Or try and get fairness in a custody battle. Or try and get laid when you're not picky.

the inept husband is a commercial archetype. Oh no! Mom's sick! The kids are going to starve! Sure, we're all offended by the mud-wrestling babes and "twins" in the beer commercials, and there's a whole segment of academia devoted to Women's Studies to call attention to objectification and all the rest. Stay-at-home moms have their ongoing media constituancy, and a whole publishing industry of magazines supports the choice of women to work, take care of children, or just get paid to get naked.

Men have a shorter life expectancy, higher incarceration rate, higher chance to die violently, higher rates of alcoholism, and so on.... And that's just the way it is, I guess. Boys will be boys, and all that.

I'm not saying 'life should be fair' - it's not. But many of the people trying to even the score seem to concentrate on taking away the percieved privledges of men, while ignoring and ridiculing the accompanying negatives.

And anyone who calls them on it is a sissy.

 

[cantdog]

Yeah!

 

[SeaCat]

White males ought to realize that there is a lot of resentment out there. It is not just history, as Cat seems to want to think. A lot of the damage is still being inflicted, daily, upon those who just didn't happen to be born white males.

Yikes, I'm sorry to interupt here but,,,,,

Respectfully I don't think it's all history. I walk the streets, I deal with people at their worst on a daily basis. Yes I judge people, as do we all, but maybe, perhaps, I'm a bit different. I judge people based on what they as individuals do. Not on their race, their gender, their religeon, or their sexual preferences are. (You have touched a nerve here and if I seem to be attacking you I apologise.) As so many people say, don't stereotype. Yes I am white, and yes I do wear a cowboy hat, but I do not fit the stereotype you are looking at. Look at the person under the long hair and hat, look at what they do, how they act, what they think. Once you have done that then you may fairly judge me. Until then remember this one passage from the bible everyone touts. "Judge not lest ye be judged."

Cat

 

[cantdog]

You did put people in a corner for holding history against you, Cat.

Some of it is only history. I don't feel that folks are justified to resent me, personally, for the cholera blankets and the slave ships. I get your point. I too take 'em one at a time. It's the only way to go. I don't, and you don't, do that shit to people, regardless. I have nothing but respect for your attitude. But.

But, it isn't all history. I see that, too. I see Mumia and I see the Hurricane and I see Leonard Peltier. That history is still with us.

I personally have done damn little about Leonard and Mumia. I threw some money at it. I support ACLU and Amnesty with more money and with letter writing and showing up at demos. I speak in churches sometimes and I educate kids when I can. But I don't feel absolved of the responsibility to oppose injustices just because I didn't commit them. It's a good thing to take 'em one by one, and a lot better than what was done in the past. But it takes more engagement than that. It cost a lot of blood to stop the lynchings, but the injustices continue.

You didn't punch any of my buttons, far from it. I see what you're saying. In the end, doing as you do is what will heal us. To place all that shit in history is to make a mistake, all the same. Too few are doing as you are.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

You did put people in a corner for holding history against you, Cat.

Some of it is only history. I don't feel that folks are justified to resent me, personally, for the cholera blankets and the slave ships. I get your point. I too take 'em one at a time. It's the only way to go. I don't, and you don't, do that shit to people, regardless. I have nothing but respect for your attitude. But.

But, it isn't all history. I see that, too. I see Mumia and I see the Hurricane and I see Leonard Peltier. That history is still with us.

I personally have done damn little about Leonard and Mumia. I threw some money at it. I support ACLU and Amnesty with more money and with letter writing and showing up at demos. I speak in churches sometimes and I educate kids when I can. But I don't feel absolved of the responsibility to oppose injustices just because I didn't commit them. It's a good thing to take 'em one by one, and a lot better than what was done in the past. But it takes more engagement than that. It cost a lot of blood to stop the lynchings, but the injustices continue.

You didn't punch any of my buttons, far from it. I see what you're saying. In the end, doing as you do is what will heal us. To place all that shit in history is to make a mistake, all the same. Too few are doing as you are.

Sorry, Cant, but you'll have to clarify: insulting me and calling me names helps all this how?

 

[Huckleman2000]

From The Onion:

CHICAGO—The season premiere of The Oprah Winfrey Show unleashed a surprise for viewers Monday, when host Winfrey presented her studio audience with an unexpected gift: eligible men.
Oprah Stuns Audience With Free Man Giveaway

Winfrey presents the studio audience with men.

"Everybody gets a man! Everybody gets a man!" said Winfrey, almost drowned out by cries of disbelief as 276 men, one for every member of the studio audience, filed onto the Oprah set.

Hoping to top last year's season-debut surprise, when members of the studio audience received free cars, Winfrey watched elated as the men knelt before their awestruck new mates and delivered gallant kisses and professions of undying affection.

"Signed, sealed, delivered... they're yours!" Winfrey said.

Hand-picked by Winfrey and her staff, the men range in age from 29 to 63 and were described by assistant producer Sally Heffernan-Ross as "great catches" with semi-professional to professional careers and stable personalities.

"Oprah showed it can happen: You can get that man of your dreams, or at least of your minimal expectations," Heffernan-Ross said.

The men, dressed in fresh chinos and polo shirts and bearing single red roses and gift baskets from Bath & Body Works, emerged moments after audience members were instructed to reach beneath their chairs, where they found inlaid boxes containing keys.

The keys, Winfrey explained, unlocked the doors to the men's individual domiciles.

"He's yours! He's completely yours!" Winfrey said to one speechless young woman who appeared stunned by what was going on around her. Assuring "no months of awkward dating" or "questions over who's going to make the first move," Winfrey said her man giveaway had totally eliminated the guesswork of romance.

The men Winfrey gave away are guaranteed to enjoy snuggling, to find the few extra pounds gained over time "cute," and to have read at least three books by the poet Maya Angelou.

"Oh, I love Maya," said one of the giveaway men, 32-year-old electrical engineer Doug Jefferson, who also enjoys warm, comfy sweaters. "I think she's very brave. Heck, I love poetry in general. Who doesn't?"

Winfrey had to reassure several of the more timid studio-audience members.

"Don't worry, ladies, they won't be going anywhere," Winfrey said. "Kiss him! Give his behind a little squeeze! It's okay—he's your man!"

As with 2004's Pontiac G6 giveaway, the man giveaway came as a complete surprise to audience members, many of whom said the men arrived just in time.
Oprah Stuns Audience With Free Man Giveaway

Oprah celebrates with Stacy Feuerbach of Downers Grove, IL, who was given Daniel Berenbaum (left).

"I was beginning to think it was never, ever going to happen," said Karla Drozdowicz, 34, an unmarried bank teller from Superior, WI who won radio-sales executive Chris Iredell. "I'm totally thrilled to get Chris. He's not what I imagined from my romance stories, but I'll love him just the same."

Another audience member, Gwendolyn Havers, said her years of watching Oprah instead of dating had "finally paid off."

"My mom says my 'wallflower' personality keeps me from meeting men," Havers said. "Well, if I wasn't such an Oprah fan, I wouldn't have gotten tickets to her show, and I wouldn't have won [part-time assistant tech-support manager] Eric [Fitzgerald]."

Heffernan-Ross said the audience members were selected from a pool of "hundreds of thousands of single, lonely women" who had put in requests for show tickets.

"Unlike the selection process for the men, finding unattached women was very easy," Heffernan-Ross said. "All we had to do was stick our hands in a big barrel of letters, and voilá, our perfect audience."

Harpo Productions, Winfrey's production company, assured the winners that their prizes are guaranteed to "be into [them]" through 2010, and agreed to pay all local and state taxes relating to the men, as well. However, federal income tax and expenses such as meals, movie tickets, motel stays, teddy bears, plush slippers, and commitment rings will not be covered.

Audience member Karen Schoenegge, 38, who was awarded 41-year-old collections-department supervisor John Zimmerman, said several drawbacks have emerged since the show's taping.

"Well, as soon as we got back to the hotel, I found out that John doesn't give backrubs," Schoenegge said. "He's also weird about me walking in the bathroom to pee while he's in the shower. I mean, it's not like I'm looking at him. He needs to loosen up a little. But I shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth. I really, really needed a new man."

The seven audience members who declined their men, saying that they were too insecure about their weight to feel confident in a romantic relationship, were instead treated to all-expenses-paid weekends at the Omni Hotel in downtown Chicago.

 

[Huckleman2000]

I'll love you, too, okay?

Yui, your AV there brings to mind another Onion headline:

HOLY FUCKING SHIT!

 

[SeaCat]

You did put people in a corner for holding history against you, Cat.

Some of it is only history. I don't feel that folks are justified to resent me, personally, for the cholera blankets and the slave ships. I get your point. I too take 'em one at a time. It's the only way to go. I don't, and you don't, do that shit to people, regardless. I have nothing but respect for your attitude. But.

But, it isn't all history. I see that, too. I see Mumia and I see the Hurricane and I see Leonard Peltier. That history is still with us.

I personally have done damn little about Leonard and Mumia. I threw some money at it. I support ACLU and Amnesty with more money and with letter writing and showing up at demos. I speak in churches sometimes and I educate kids when I can. But I don't feel absolved of the responsibility to oppose injustices just because I didn't commit them. It's a good thing to take 'em one by one, and a lot better than what was done in the past. But it takes more engagement than that. It cost a lot of blood to stop the lynchings, but the injustices continue.

You didn't punch any of my buttons, far from it. I see what you're saying. In the end, doing as you do is what will heal us. To place all that shit in history is to make a mistake, all the same. Too few are doing as you are.

Cant.

Look at the last sentance in your message, then rephrase it. Replace the word you with the word we. We are a rare breed, we think. Not only do we think but we act. It is people like us that will cause the healing.

People do need a sense of history and they need to look at things with history in mind. The subjugation of people, the enslavement if you prefer, has been going on since before written history. We must all acknowledge that fact and do what we can to stop it. (Yes it is still going on.) If we look to history, not as a source of finding blame but as a source of information on how to stop the subjugation of people then we are on the right track.

Right now we are writing history. Here in America as well as around the world things are changing. Sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly, but they are changing. It is up to people like us, you and myself as well as the other people here on the board, to keep that change going. Just by writing our stories we are showing/teaching people that some things are okay while other things are not. Here on the board one of our biggest messages, (even if it is unintentional,) is that sexual freedom is for everyone. The freedom to choose what you want to do to others and have done to you. By spreading our little message we are helping to keep this change going. By giving money to groups that push for more understanding between races, or by standing up for those who need someone to stand up for them we are helping in that arena. Just remember though, if you look back through history those who pushed for change are the ones who got hurt.

Cat

 

[cloudy]

You did put people in a corner for holding history against you, Cat.

Some of it is only history. I don't feel that folks are justified to resent me, personally, for the cholera blankets and the slave ships. I get your point. I too take 'em one at a time. It's the only way to go. I don't, and you don't, do that shit to people, regardless. I have nothing but respect for your attitude. But.

But, it isn't all history. I see that, too. I see Mumia and I see the Hurricane and I see Leonard Peltier. That history is still with us.

I personally have done damn little about Leonard and Mumia. I threw some money at it. I support ACLU and Amnesty with more money and with letter writing and showing up at demos. I speak in churches sometimes and I educate kids when I can. But I don't feel absolved of the responsibility to oppose injustices just because I didn't commit them. It's a good thing to take 'em one by one, and a lot better than what was done in the past. But it takes more engagement than that. It cost a lot of blood to stop the lynchings, but the injustices continue.

You didn't punch any of my buttons, far from it. I see what you're saying. In the end, doing as you do is what will heal us. To place all that shit in history is to make a mistake, all the same. Too few are doing as you are.

Thank you, cant.

It's not all history, unfortunately. A lot of it is way more subtle than it used to be, but it's there all the same. I see it.

And, if you'd like to find out how to help with Leonard Peltier, shoot me a PM. There's lots of things that people like you and I can do to make our voices heard.

 

[cantdog]

Sorry, Cant, but you'll have to clarify: insulting me and calling me names helps all this how?

What insults? You mean the shirt? I don't much like the shirt. I wouldn't go around the corner in order to defend the shirt. I don't get what you're asking me, I guess.

 

[Belegon]

Much of the idiocy out there has gotten more quiet...but it is still there...

Cat and Cant are both part of the solution, not part of the problem...as are most of us here. Look at my av, I'm as caucasion as they get. But I do feel I am doing my part in the most important way...

if you asked my son to describe his Uncle J. he would talk about baseball, about BBQ's at the park , about jokes and presents, about how he's a (arrgh!) Raiders fan and about how much fun he is. Ask him about his Uncle P. and he will tell you about tickle games and being swung around the yard and cars and birthday parties and a love for Salted Pepper Chicken Wings.

He won't even think to tell you that J. is black and P. is mexican.

We'll win this battle a generation at a time.

...and that goes for the sexism too...

 

[cantdog]

I hang a lot with the generation of my daughter. Those guys are much less anti-gay than any of my contemporaries seemed to be when I was in high school, and they are completely out of sympathy with racism. I would love to think that it's getting better.

I can still catch the old flavor, though, at the Bible Baptist Church in my town. The whole of the new generation didn't get better. Times of war are always times of discrimination and group hatreds, and the forces which oppose liberation don't just go to sleep. They act to negate every gain, and they succeed, too. I wonder, sometimes, if we aren't seeing a slowdown in that sort of progress.

Thanks for understanding, Cat.

 

[Belegon]

I hang a lot with the generation of my daughter. Those guys are much less anti-gay than any of my contemporaries seemed to be when I was in high school, and they are completely out of sympathy with racism. I would love to think that it's getting better.

I can still catch the old flavor, though, at the Bible Baptist Church in my town. The whole of the new generation didn't get better. Times of war are always times of discrimination and group hatreds, and the forces which oppose liberation don't just go to sleep. They act to negate every gain, and they succeed, too. I wonder, sometimes, if we aren't seeing a slowdown in that sort of progress.

Thanks for understanding, Cat.

It is getting better. It's just that the job is far from finished...

 

[dr_mabeuse]

What insults? You mean the shirt? I don't much like the shirt. I wouldn't go around the corner in order to defend the shirt. I don't get what you're asking me, I guess.

I don't care about the shirt either. I'm talking about things like Svenskaflicka's screed in this thread, which, as far as I can tell, no one's objected to in the least. I'm talking about the fact that no one but other men have come to our own defense.

We wouldn't let people talk that way about gays, or lesbians, or blacks, or jews, but when it comes to men, it's okay. It's a joke. It's all in good fun. Men deserve it, because most of the assholes in power are men.

I don't care who you're talking about, there's a word for generalizing and castigating a group of people based on the actions of a few. It's called bigotry, and people who do it are called bigots, whether they're on the right or the left.

I don't mind the jokes, and I don't mind the fun. But when the tirades come out dripping real venom and hatred, it's pretty fucking upsetting.

 

[tolyk]

I don't care about the shirt either. I'm talking about things like Svenskaflicka's screed in this thread, which, as far as I can tell, no one's objected to in the least. I'm talking about the fact that no one but other men have come to our own defense.

We wouldn't let people talk that way about gays, or lesbians, or blacks, or jews, but when it comes to men, it's okay. It's a joke. It's all in good fun. Men deserve it, because most of the assholes in power are men.

I don't care who you're talking about, there's a word for generalizing and castigating a group of people based on the actions of a few. It's called bigotry, and people who do it are called bigots, whether they're on the right or the left.

THANK YOU! That's exactly what I wanted to say.. only coherant

 

[Huckleman2000]

I don't care about the shirt either. I'm talking about things like Svenskaflicka's screed in this thread, which, as far as I can tell, no one's objected to in the least. I'm talking about the fact that no one but other men have come to our own defense.

We wouldn't let people talk that way about gays, or lesbians, or blacks, or jews, but when it comes to men, it's okay. It's a joke. It's all in good fun. Men deserve it, because most of the assholes in power are men.

I don't care who you're talking about, there's a word for generalizing and castigating a group of people based on the actions of a few. It's called bigotry, and people who do it are called bigots, whether they're on the right or the left.

I don't mind the jokes, and I don't mind the fun. But when the tirades come out dripping real venom and hatred, it's pretty fucking upsetting.

sheesh, how many people have me on 'ignore'???

 

[English Lady]

Dr M -I've only posted once here to agree with Earl about not really seeing the insult in the T-shirt. I'll post again to say I think I'm way too laid back about this.


I'll happily come to the defence of men. I'll defend each and every one of you because you're all different people, all individuals.

Stereotyping and categorizing and blanket insulting are not real, they are a sweeping generalisation that doesn't really apply to any one individual in the group but might kinda, sort of, just a little bit might apply to alot of them in a very abstract way.

I see no issue with the T-shirt as it's an obvious joke and we UK folks like to laugh, especially at ourselves or at things that we shouldn't (Non PC jokes) but it's something we all accept. A joke is not a joke the minute it offends someone.

I do feel sorry for anyone who has the kind of burning hatred of someone or a few individuals and then reflect it on every single person who can be categorised in the same way.

ANd blokes, you do know the original T-shirt is a way to start conversations and flirt with you don't you?