Your Local Economy

[Homburg]

I wonder if the math works out such that one would be almost equally ahead by buying a Prius and getting the hybrid writeoff? I don't know the details so I'm just positing a more earth-friendly alternative.

The battery alone makes the Prius non-environmentally friendly. (unless they've radically changed the technology recently)

ULEV's are overall a more logical choice. Many get mpg that is close enough to actual Prius mileage (Prius mpg claims are not quite real world accurate), environmental footprint is reduced when you consider disposal at the end of it's lifecycle, and overall cost of ownership is similar, if not lower. No tax benefits of course. *shrug* ULEV's just aren't sexy enough, I guess.

Show me a workable ZLEV with no heinous disposal issues, and I'll be crazy impressed. This is, of course, the holy grail of green-friendly automotive design though, so it's kind of a tautology.

I like the concept of the Prius and other hybrids. I like the idea of supporting that sort of technology with your dollars in order to give the automakers more reason to push for green. But thinking that a Prius is actually earth-friendly in itself is flawed.

 

[midwestyankee]

The battery alone makes the Prius non-environmentally friendly. (unless they've radically changed the technology recently)

And just how much of a Hummer is bio-degradable? I don't know the math that would make for a true and comprehensive comparison but I find it highly unlikely that by any measure one could argue that a Hummer makes for a more earth-friendly vehicle - as measured from cradle to grave, so to speak - than a Prius.

 

[Netzach]

I wonder if the math works out such that one would be almost equally ahead by buying a Prius and getting the hybrid writeoff? I don't know the details so I'm just positing a more earth-friendly alternative.

Cost of Prius.

Cost of Hummer. (prior to loophole closure by Democratic congress, the only thing I can think of them having the nuts to do)

I'm still having a problem.

And my SUV weighted to be classed with farm equipment *still* has that handy 5 year depreciation schedule, which is nice when you're pinched.

 

[Netzach]

The battery alone makes the Prius non-environmentally friendly. (unless they've radically changed the technology recently)

Other than the "adobe" from SNL what is?

We're picking between the lesser of evils. And I'm not enamored of a tax break for the wealthy fundamentally funded by the less wealthy. I have NO problems with Utility uses of SUV's - and I believe there are legitimate needs for Utility among small businesses and large families.

 

[DVS]

Other than the "adobe" from SNL what is?

We're picking between the lesser of evils. And I'm not enamored of a tax break for the wealthy fundamentally funded by the less wealthy. I have NO problems with Utility uses of SUV's - and I believe there are legitimate needs for Utility among small businesses and large families.

Oh, the Adobe!! Now that was a car!

Adobe - very unsafe car, with a sticker price of $179; made entirely of clay, it combines German engineering and Mexican know-how.

 

[midwestyankee]

Cost of Prius.

Cost of Hummer. (prior to loophole closure by Democratic congress, the only thing I can think of them having the nuts to do)

I'm still having a problem.

And my SUV weighted to be classed with farm equipment *still* has that handy 5 year depreciation schedule, which is nice when you're pinched.

The hybrid tax credit works out to a maximum of $3,000 in the year of purchase. If you could get a monster SUV large enough to qualify for the maximum tax savings for the same dollars, the tax code seems to benefit the SUV owner (and seller, by way of creating a supply of incentivized buyers).

 

[catalina_francisco]

Environmentally speaking, no matter whether you feel you need a gas guzzling set of wheels or are more environmentally minded, once the fuel gets low enough to jack the prices beyond the reach or mere mortals we will all have to find another way of living. In parts of Europe it is already a thought which is in the mind of many and being utilised now instead of later. More places are beginning to adopt a bicycle heavy transport system, household waste is in a few places like Belguim and trial areas of the UK being weighed and charged by the weight accordingly, and in NL microchipped and charged per collection instead of the old flat rate system. Change is inevitable and the sooner people begin to adjust the longer that change will become vital for food and goods transport costs, and the easier it will be to cope when there are no other choices available.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2108/2342778307_b122c6bca8_t.jpg Catalina

 

[Netzach]

The hybrid tax credit works out to a maximum of $3,000 in the year of purchase. If you could get a monster SUV large enough to qualify for the maximum tax savings for the same dollars, the tax code seems to benefit the SUV owner (and seller, by way of creating a supply of incentivized buyers).

Yuh huh.

I have a lot of issues with this.

Most people in the bottom tax brackets don't have businesses or don't understand what can be expensed if they do, or don't have the capital to participate in this way up front.

It tinkers with the integrity of the free market aspect of auto sales. They pumped out huge cars at a bad time, had a bad season as gas went up, and we're bailing them out with the incentives. I think the same "float or sink" aspect that makes or breaks me should apply to all other businesses. Or not.

 

[midwestyankee]

Yuh huh.

I have a lot of issues with this.

Most people in the bottom tax brackets don't have businesses or don't understand what can be expensed if they do, or don't have the capital to participate in this way up front.

It tinkers with the integrity of the free market aspect of auto sales. They pumped out huge cars at a bad time, had a bad season as gas went up, and we're bailing them out with the incentives. I think the same "float or sink" aspect that makes or breaks me should apply to all other businesses. Or not.

Good luck with selling that notion of a free market to the Republicans.

 

[Netzach]

Environmentally speaking, no matter whether you feel you need a gas guzzling set of wheels or are more environmentally minded, once the fuel gets low enough to jack the prices beyond the reach or mere mortals we will all have to find another way of living. In parts of Europe it is already a thought which is in the mind of many and being utilised now instead of later. More places are beginning to adopt a bicycle heavy transport system, household waste is in a few places like Belguim and trial areas of the UK being weighed and charged by the weight accordingly, and in NL microchipped and charged per collection instead of the old flat rate system. Change is inevitable and the sooner people begin to adjust the longer that change will become vital for food and goods transport costs, and the easier it will be to cope when there are no other choices available.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2108/2342778307_b122c6bca8_t.jpg Catalina

Amtrak participation is up everywhere the rail services halfway decently, which is pretty much the eastern seaboard.

Maybe this will tip 'em off and we'll eventually have decent rail.

 

[Netzach]

Good luck with selling that notion of a free market to the Republicans.

Oh no, *I'm* the nursemaid, the pinko, the regulatory fetishist.

 

[midwestyankee]

Amtrak participation is up everywhere the rail services halfway decently, which is pretty much the eastern seaboard.

Maybe this will tip 'em off and we'll eventually have decent rail.

What? Why we can't have that! A railroad system that works would endanger the family automaker, and we all know how important the small family automaking firm is to the fabric of America.

 

[midwestyankee]

Oh no, *I'm* the nursemaid, the pinko, the regulatory fetishist.

That's right, babe. You and Bear Stearns.

 

[Netzach]

That's right, babe. You and Bear Stearns.

Hey, no bad loser juju here, I had a rough March but I don't think I'm through.

 

[Homburg]

And just how much of a Hummer is bio-degradable? I don't know the math that would make for a true and comprehensive comparison but I find it highly unlikely that by any measure one could argue that a Hummer makes for a more earth-friendly vehicle - as measured from cradle to grave, so to speak - than a Prius.

Hummer is standard autmotive tech. Metal is not biodegradable and does not need to be. It can be safely and easily recycled. Plastics are a huge issue, but they're present in every vehicle, every house, damned near everything we have that is manufactured.

The difference lies in the battery. Prius batteries are enormous affairs, taking up a significant portion of the floorboard (going off memory here, and their tech and placement may have changed, but I doubt it). The battery, like virtually every common-use battery, is a soup of acids and toxic heavy metals. Those go somewhere. Toyota has a program in place to recycle those batteries upon replacement, and they're good about it.

BUT, and this is a big one, what happens to the car when it is totaled? What happens years down the road when even vaunted Toyota engineering gives up and you retire that car? Where does it go? To a salvage yard, of course. Salvage yards are already environmental cancers, but add in a new source of very large, very nasty toxic revervoirs, and you'rs got even more chemical evil dumping into the water table.

In short, it is a difference between the Hummer's battery, and a battery that is almost as wide and half as long as the whole Prius. Unless Toyota has a program of which I am unaware to track all Prius' totals and mechanical write-offs and reclaim those batteries, the VAST majority of Prius batteries on the street today will wind up in a salvage yard.

Additionally, and here is where we get into weird collision-repair specific stuff, Hummers are tough. Not as tough as you'd imagine, but they're still sturdy units, and retain value well. The Prius retains value fairly well, but they're soft, like basically every Toyota product. This means that a Hummer will do better in a collision than a Prius from the repair standpoint. Retaining value, and having a higher value, means a Hummer is harder to total than a Prius, and will be fixed more commonly that totalled. Given that the construction is heavy and tough, the Hummers that hit salvage yards will yield more useful salvage parts for a longer time frame. There is also much more call for them, so you'll see more totalled H2's being rebuilt (not a good thing)

The Prius is soft, and you get a LOT of transferred damage in a loss. This means that more of the car will be unusable from a salvage standpoint. Also, as the cars overall worth is lower, they will total out sooner vis a vis service life. Add in the comparative scarcity, and thus higher expense of salvage parts, and you're going to see them totalling out even more than normal.

This adds up to a longer service life for Hummers vis a vis traumatic losses. Longer service life means means less need for "biodegradability", as more and more of them become frankensteinian monsters.

Lastly, there's less shit to break on a Hummer, mechanically speaking. Lower complexity means less can go wrong with it. Engine and transmission are the big killers for older cars. With hybrids you add a third party, the battery. Admittedly, this is balanced out by Toyota's greater reliability versus anything GM, but you can understand how adding a third major failure point could potentially limit the Prius' service life. This is more of an important when making a much more legitmate comparison between the Prius and other ULEV's in its' actual class.

So keep in mind that we are comparing apples and oranges here. I am not realistically trying to argue that a Hummer is better for the environment than the Prius. That was your straw man, not mine. I am stating, as a schmuck in the industry, that the Prius is not the green wet dream it is touted to be. A Honda Civic HX is a better choice IMO (thus my argument for other ULEV's). And this is looking at the big picture and long-term service life etc.

Keep in mind that this is my opinion based solely on trends I have personally witnessed, market factors I track as a result of my work, articles I've read, and discussions with industry personnel. I'm not a scientist studying economical and environmental impact of hybrids. Consider this anecdotal.

 

[Homburg]

The hybrid tax credit works out to a maximum of $3,000 in the year of purchase. If you could get a monster SUV large enough to qualify for the maximum tax savings for the same dollars, the tax code seems to benefit the SUV owner (and seller, by way of creating a supply of incentivized buyers).

This still bothers the hell out of me.

-----

Amtrak participation is up everywhere the rail services halfway decently, which is pretty much the eastern seaboard.

Maybe this will tip 'em off and we'll eventually have decent rail.

Rail isn't as sexy as the auto. You have to *gasp* walk once the rail ends. You can't drive to the door and trundle out. And, frankly, that rail only goes where it wants to go, and on its' schedule. Can't have that.

-----

Oh no, *I'm* the nursemaid, the pinko, the regulatory fetishist.

*snort*

 

[midwestyankee]

Hummer is standard autmotive tech. Metal is not biodegradable and does not need to be. It can be safely and easily recycled. Plastics are a huge issue, but they're present in every vehicle, every house, damned near everything we have that is manufactured.

<snip>

So keep in mind that we are comparing apples and oranges here. I am not realistically trying to argue that a Hummer is better for the environment than the Prius. That was your straw man, not mine. I am stating, as a schmuck in the industry, that the Prius is not the green wet dream it is touted to be. A Honda Civic HX is a better choice IMO (thus my argument for other ULEV's). And this is looking at the big picture and long-term service life etc.

Keep in mind that this is my opinion based solely on trends I have personally witnessed, market factors I track as a result of my work, articles I've read, and discussions with industry personnel. I'm not a scientist studying economical and environmental impact of hybrids. Consider this anecdotal.

I don't think it's a straw man argument to ask about a straight-up cradle to grave comparison between the two vehicles (or really, types of vehicles). And I said that I don't know the math involved so was only posing the question. It's my guess based on what I know of how the automotive aftermarket (which includes the function of the salvage yard) works, that you're mostly right about the likelihood of re-usable Hummer parts being in greater supply (on a per-1,000 vehicle basis, let's say) than those of a smaller hybrid. But, and you did say this, that does not answer the whole cradle-to-grave question. It's just one part that some people might not have considered when they tout the Prius and its cousins as the next greatest thing since sliced bread. Now, I despise sliced bread so I'm not the right guy to talk to on this anyways.

There is no such thing as a wet dream in reality - except a wet dream. And we all know how productive those are.

The fact remains that the choice between a monster SUV and a smaller hybrid is not a simple choice because, depending on one's essential criteria and the individual way that those criteria are prioritized, one can make an argument for either kind of car.

I do have a bone to pick with Congress in the way that it has helped motivate the manufacture and sale of large SUVs through the tax code and ridiculously lenient CAFE standards that cover these trucks. It's not the most responsible set of legislation they've ever produced.

 

[Homburg]

I don't think it's a straw man argument to ask about a straight-up cradle to grave comparison between the two vehicles (or really, types of vehicles). And I said that I don't know the math involved so was only posing the question. It's my guess based on what I know of how the automotive aftermarket (which includes the function of the salvage yard) works, that you're mostly right about the likelihood of re-usable Hummer parts being in greater supply (on a per-1,000 vehicle basis, let's say) than those of a smaller hybrid. But, and you did say this, that does not answer the whole cradle-to-grave question. It's just one part that some people might not have considered when they tout the Prius and its cousins as the next greatest thing since sliced bread. Now, I despise sliced bread so I'm not the right guy to talk to on this anyways.

There is no such thing as a wet dream in reality - except a wet dream. And we all know how productive those are.

The fact remains that the choice between a monster SUV and a smaller hybrid is not a simple choice because, depending on one's essential criteria and the individual way that those criteria are prioritized, one can make an argument for either kind of car.

I do have a bone to pick with Congress in the way that it has helped motivate the manufacture and sale of large SUVs through the tax code and ridiculously lenient CAFE standards that cover these trucks. It's not the most responsible set of legislation they've ever produced.

Good lord, I agree there. CAFE standards are a huge cock-up. Add in the environmental credit concept where you can make monster smog-belchers all day so long as other cars in your line-up are gas-sipping vapor-belchers, and you have manufacturers committing design sins on par with Christmas catholics that think that a little confession enables them to sin as they wish.

Oh, there's also the joy that talks about PSI of the contact patches when comparining an H2 with that Prius. The Prisu' skinny lil tires produce FAR more roadwear than the H2, resulting in need for more expensive and earth-unfriendly road maintenance.

There are winners out there. I mentioned th eHonda Civic HX, and various VW TDI's are getting completely absurd numbers these days. There are also elements coming into play that give hope in some truly underlooked sectors. There's a manufacturer that is producing hydrogen injection devices for commercial vehicles. Bloody ingenious, as you pour distilled water into a tank under the hood, and the system draws off excess electricity from the alternator to split the water into hydrogen and oxygen, and then injects it into the intake side. Really dead impressive, and flex-fuel engines gobble that stuff up. The cost? One-time install on the system and minor maintenance. Environmental impact? Dead minimal, as there is very little there aside from plastic bottles and tubing such as you already see. MPG sees a significant boost (well, significant by commercial standards), and emissions lower as well. That is green design that I'm all about.

 

[midwestyankee]

Would that I could find the bread for one of these:

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/mwy_photos/tesla.jpg

Acceleration: 0 to 60 in just under 4 seconds

Top Speed: 125 mph

Fuel economy: infinite (it's electric powered)

Range: 220 miles

Battery life: 100,000 miles

Price tag: $100,000

teslamotors.com

 

[Homburg]

Would that I could find the bread for one of these:

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/mwy_photos/tesla.jpg

Acceleration: 0 to 60 in just under 4 seconds

Top Speed: 125 mph

Fuel economy: infinite (it's electric powered)

Range: 220 miles

Battery life: 100,000 miles

Price tag: $100,000

teslamotors.com

*growl*

Yup. They recently changed their transmissions to something a wee bit more workable. It doesn't produce the spectacular numbers projected, but it has the advantage of actually functioning with a modicum of reliability. They're getting there.

$100k is not all that awful for a low production volume sports car.

That said, I'll take an Ariel Atom 2 any damned day of the week. And it is powered by an emissions-legal Honda 4-cylinder. Rawr. The car is pure, unadulterated automotive sex, and manages to be as green as a Honda Civic EX-R. Not an HX, but nothing to piss on either.

And they have them for sale used for as low as 23500UKP. They might as well just give em away

Oh, there was one electric performer that I need to find. It's a two seater ugly box car that sits the passenger behind the driver, but the ugly little bastards performance numbers are obscene. I'll see if I can find it.

Nothing out there proves the viability of pure electric like the Tesla offerings and Toyota's concept only super-electric. Car guys like fast, and that's just how it works.

ETA: It's called The Tango. Ugly, but oh so hot.

 

[FurryFury]

The cheapest I can find gas for here is $3.17 at Sam's. This is what I use my Sam's card for the most btw, gas.

I happen to know the housing market is very slow here. Some buddies of mine have had houses on the market for well over a year.

There are always jobs available but the greatest majority of them are jobs "no one wants to do."

Arts funding is down by a HUGE amount. That was something I expected during an election year though.

I feel like I'm working twice as hard for less money. The work is fun and challenging so that's something but still.

 

[EmpressFi]

That's the thing I am most terrified of right now. We're getting ready to move to Cleveland and have to sell our house.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Amtrak participation is up everywhere the rail services halfway decently, which is pretty much the eastern seaboard.

Maybe this will tip 'em off and we'll eventually have decent rail.

It is not a wonderful outlook for the future when some of us have in the past been used to the freedom of our own wheels etc. Seems here it is very much in the news and public eye on a daily basis with many more people beginning to change the way they live for the sake of the environment, or being forced to through their wallets.

Catalina

 

[BiBunny]

Public transportation, bicycles, etc. may work quite well in cities, but I'd like to know how in the world my mother's supposed to ride a bicycle 20 miles to Wal-Mart and back. And, yes, that's the closest supermarket available.

I know people may not believe it, but there really *are* still places in the world where "green" isn't plausible. You can't cut hay with a battery-powered Weedeater, and you can't ride on public transportation that doesn't exist. I'm spending the weekend at my parents' place right now, and guess what. The only Internet available here is still dial-up, and that's not likely to change for years. It doesn't cost much to live here, but you pay for it in other ways.

Population density counts for something when you're trying to be environmentally-conscious. *Shrug*

 

[EmpressFi]

Public transportation, bicycles, etc. may work quite well in cities, but I'd like to know how in the world my mother's supposed to ride a bicycle 20 miles to Wal-Mart and back. And, yes, that's the closest supermarket available.

I know people may not believe it, but there really *are* still places in the world where "green" isn't plausible. You can't cut hay with a battery-powered Weedeater, and you can't ride on public transportation that doesn't exist. I'm spending the weekend at my parents' place right now, and guess what. The only Internet available here is still dial-up, and that's not likely to change for years. It doesn't cost much to live here, but you pay for it in other ways.

Population density counts for something when you're trying to be environmentally-conscious. *Shrug*

*applauds* my hometown was the "city".. however we didnt have McDonalds until '89, we still have to leave the state to go to the movies, and there's no public transportation available at all...

we're a bunch of coal miners, tobacco farmers, and soybean farmers...

Living here in the suburb of Philadelphia, well there's not a day that goes by that I dont slap myself and wonder how I got here. Public transportation isnt great...but it works.