‘Immutable’ self-identification

[Bramblethorn]

Some identities are negotiated.
Some identities are declared.
Some identities are earned.
Some identities are enforced.
Some identities are purely factual.

Consider the 'doctor' identity. There is obviously a very good reason why society doesn't let people go around calling themselves doctors just because they fancy it. But equally, someone who has a medical degree but has stopped practicing medicine for many years can reasonably refute people still calling them a doctor.

And there's also the PhD/MD distinction there. I will style myself "Dr. Bramble" when I'm publishing research; I usually would not invoke that title in a hospital.

 

[Bramblethorn]

My "favorite" example: Andrew Tate, famous kickboxing misogynist, accused rapist and sex trafficker.

Someone looked at a pic of him in a bathing suit and thought his bulge was too small, so he must be a "woman" (meaning transman).

https://www.dailydot.com/debug/andrew-tate-transgender-conspiracy-theory/

-Annie

Lately some of them have come up with a "double flip" conspiracy theory: if somebody is publicly out as trans, but doesn't fit the transvestigators' usual rules for identifying trans-ness, then they must have secretly transitioned before publicly transitioning back to their birth gender. It'd be hilarious if these whackjobs weren't dangerous.

 

[madelinemasoch]

I find it kind of interesting how nobody is answering OP's actual question. He's asking what the difference is between transgender and transracial. I think it's because gender and race are different types of categories. It seems like there's this underlying assumption in other people's heads that all identity categories are the same, including nationality and physical or mental ability status, but I don't think so. They're all actually quite different and based upon different things.

However, I don't think any of them are so simple as to be deduced by a given empirical observation about a given individual. To be more specific, I think there are material forces at play that gender identities are based on, and by material I actually mean social (not biological). Personally, my great big non-politically-correct heresy is that I believe this actually has more to do with eroticism than is talked about in the discourse on both sides. The right does it more, but only to bifurcate it into the fallacious concept of quote-unquote "fetish" which in my analysis doesn't even meaningfully exist. Sexual proclivities aren't ossified closed-off preferences. A "fetish" is more of an idea than a material reality, and the thing that makes the fetish hot isn't the idea of its content, but its content itself. It's also not easily boiled down to "because I like it" for the same reason that the individual identification thesis is insufficient in my view. Social forces conditioned the individual to be the certain way that they are. To say otherwise is basically to say that we don't live in a society at all.

I don't think that the same social forces that exist in terms of gender and sexuality exist in terms of race. It's a different form of social machinery.

 

[TheRedChamber]

My "favorite" example: Andrew Tate, famous kickboxing misogynist, accused rapist and sex trafficker.

Someone looked at a pic of him in a bathing suit and thought his bulge was too small, so he must be a "woman" (meaning transman).

https://www.dailydot.com/debug/andrew-tate-transgender-conspiracy-theory/

-Annie

Do they not know about shrinkage?

Actually, wait, I'm not going to defend Tate - let's go with 'not trans but micropenis confirmed'.

(And not one of those nice guys with a micropenis who learn how to please women in other ways a la the other thread doing the rounds at the moment).

 

[lovecraft68]

They make things up as they go along, and everything about them is predicated on whatever direction the woke wind blows.

See, its okay to offend women by claiming men are women because in the end the 'Progressives" are by far the antithesis of the women's rights they claim to uphold. Example, its convenient for them to squeal that one political side wants to control women's reproductive rights and claim they want to defend those rights.

Then that same side wants to stop using the terms woman and female and let's a testosterone filled, muscular boxer get into a ring and beat the shit out of women in the Olympics because he identifies as one. They want men to walk into girl's locker rooms and watch them undress and if the women are uncomfortable, its their fault, not the fault of a delusional pervert role playing as a woman. Because fact is, until you lop it off? You're a man end of discussion in the land of fact, biology and sanity. Hmm Title IX anyone? Because it's really standing up for women's rights to let males compete in women's sports and take away scholarshiops and physically hurt them.

Yes, tell me more about how progressives care about women. I'm excited to watch you spin your lies.

But...race? Oh no, that really matters! Um, as long as said diverse person agrees with progressive values because if they have the audacity to think for themselves, they're treated as harshly, but telling a black person how to think, what to believe and who to vote for somehow isn't racism for them.

End of the day, if you want to see sexism and racism, look no farther than a progressive. They regress and undermine every issue they say they stand for. They are also incapable of a factual argument and can only spew angry ideology.

But say that and you're the one who's wrong because add bullying and lynch mob mentality to their list of 'attributes'

 

[SimonDoom]

Some public spaces in Australia are beginning to solve the "problem" by having traditional male and female toilets as well as designated combined spaces, with a row of cubicles, no urinal. I can't remember what the signs on the combined door says, but the layout assumes adults can make mature choices about who they might meet inside, and kids go wherever their parents take them.

Takes the wind out of everyone's sails, from what I can see.

I suspect some of the squabbles and political hoo ha will go away by adopting practical measures like this. In the US, I see increasing numbers of one at a time, gender neutral bathrooms which eliminate part of the problem. We may move toward recognizing trans categories for athletic competitions.

 

[AlinaX]

blah

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Personally, my great big non-politically-correct heresy is that I believe this actually has more to do with eroticism than is talked about in the discourse on both sides. The right does it more, but only to bifurcate it into the fallacious concept of quote-unquote "fetish" which in my analysis doesn't even meaningfully exist.

I suspect the fascination with trans women is because it's a fetish of others - there's a big demand in porn and reality for people who look female but have cocks. If we ever get to a society where men don't ever feel ashamed to admit they like cock, and don't feel they can only suck cock if it's on a woman, then I predict 99% of the trans panic will go away at the same time.

Social forces conditioned the individual to be the certain way that they are. To say otherwise is basically to say that we don't live in a society at all.

Surely you can't be arguing that Her Majesty Margaret Thatcher was wrong? "There is no such thing as society"! (/s, seeing as this is the internet...)

I don't think that the same social forces that exist in terms of gender and sexuality exist in terms of race. It's a different form of social machinery.

It's sure different, and said social forces will be different in different places. The UK's views related to race are incredibly different to the US (eg newspapers enjoying Yank-bashing of Meghan Markle before she married Prince Harry, then just beforehand there were headlines about US media being outraged at UK media's 'racism', just because she was black. "She's black?" went the entire country.) People will happily tick different boxes on race monitoring boxes to the rest of their similar-looking family, depending on experiences, messages they want to send, etc. Partly because it doesn't matter much - there aren't widespread jobs or funds available only to people with a certain ethnic background.

The only example I can think of is Stormzy's scholarships to encourage black kids to apply to Cambridge, which were considered controversial, until Cambridge pointed out that the main reason for lack of black students was lack of applications, and this worked better than anything the uni had ever tried, the kids still needed to meet the same academic standards, and also, the uni pretty much guarantees no-one should ever have to drop out for lack of funds, as there's a wide range of scholarships, bursaries and hardship funds. So getting a Stormzy scholarship doesn't give you an advantage over anyone else.

 

[SamBomb]

Nobody is answering the OPs question, because it's fucking stupid and it's just a transphobe going off trying to justify their bigotry. I can't believe this bullshit spanned into a second thread.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Nobody is answering the OPs question, because it's fucking stupid and it's just a transphobe going off trying to justify their bigotry. I can't believe this bullshit spanned into a second thread.

That's out of order. The OP is a well respected member of this community, with a solid track record of intelligent and informed comment. I think their opening comment is genuine curiosity, and has generated two pages of civilised discussion.

Until now. You've jumped in... let's just say, a little too hastily. And that's me defending the person, not the argument - I've got no horse in this race.

 

[SamBomb]

That's out of order. The OP is a well respected member of this community, with a solid track record of intelligent and informed comment. I think their opening comment is genuine curiosity, and has generated two pages of civilised discussion.

Until now. You've jumped in... let's just say, a little too hastily. And that's me defending the person, not the argument - I've got no horse in this race.

I've been around enough transphobes arguments to recognize one trying to sound reasonable when they are just being a transphobe.

Saying, "So, perhaps somebody could explain why, for instance, somebody with a penis and testicles must be considered as a woman when they wish"

Is just an argument transphobes make all the time. It's pretty obvious people's gender is not just their genitals, but this OP is clearly saying they are. Also saying as they wish, like trans people are just pretending is pretty transphobic too.

If they aren't a transphobe, they are imitating one very well without knowing it.

 

[AwkwardMD]

EB, that's how dog whistles work. Most people don't hear it.

I took one look at the opening post and decided this thread was not an invitation to genuine dialog. The reason most of the thread has been going along fine is because no one is *really* interacting with the TP's post.

 

[TheLobster]

EB, that's how dog whistles work. Most people don't hear it.

And who are those dogs that OP is supposedly whistling at? Like EB said, this thread had been nothing but courteous, at least until it was derailed three posts above.

 

[SimonDoom]

EB, that's how dog whistles work. Most people don't hear it.

Sometimes people don't hear it because it doesn't actually exist. Saying it's there doesn't make it so. I think TP has a solid enough track record in this forum that we should assume the question is asked in good faith, and not out of "phobia" or "malice." If you don't see that, then it raises the question whether you are capable of admitting that people can disagree with you in good faith.

 

[AwkwardMD]

And who are those dogs that OP is supposedly whistling at? Like EB said, this thread had been nothing but courteous, at least until it was derailed three posts above.

This is the problem with dog whistles. They seem harmless.

If I told you that the prisoners at Auschwitz had very clean, pest-free uniforms, what would that tell you? To a nazi, this is a way of holocaust denial (acting as if the holocaust wasn't that bad, everyone was treated well, etc) while also enjoying the private glee that comes from knowing Zyklon-B was originally designed as a pesticide.

When you've heard actual bigots, the people trying to enact harmful legislation, use a dog whistle and then you hear the same thing come out of someone else's mouth, how much slack do you cut them? I mean, I read TP's summer story and liked it, left a *very* nice comment. Does a smiley face completely erase word choices I know aren't as kind or polite as they seem?

 

[AwkwardMD]

If you don't see that, then it raises the question whether you are capable of admitting that people can disagree with you in good faith.

TP gets the benefit of the doubt, but I don’t? You're not even going to interrogate the idea that there's something there before suggesting I'm the crazy one? And I'm the one who can't act in good faith?

Yeah, I was right to stay away from this in the first place and a fool to try.

 

[SimonDoom]

TP gets the benefit of the doubt, but I don’t? You're not even going to interrogate the idea that there's something there before suggesting I'm the crazy one? And I'm the one who can't act in good faith?

Yeah, I was right to stay away from this in the first place and a fool to try.

You made an accusation against a fellow member of this forum, accusing them of dog-whistling, so no, you don't get the benefit of the doubt. There's no basis for you to suggest that she's dog whistling, or even to bring it up.

I don't accuse you of acting in bad faith. You may well believe in good faith that everybody who disagrees with you is a bad person. It's not crazy or in bad faith, but it certainly is intolerant.

 

[TheLobster]

It's not crazy

Perhaps. "I'm not paranoid, it's just that everyone's out to get me" comes pretty damn close, though.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

I'll give OP credit for at least asking the question. Too many people are so sure of the 'facts' concerning gender dysphoria and what it means to be transgender but never stop to ask the question.

To use his comparison, there's is so much more to gender than just physical biology, just like race is so much more than the amount of melanin in one's skin.
Too many people base their entire opinion on the base metric of gender which is a male/female binary without bothering to account for the variances even within that metric.
Even our baseline binary isn't a true binary as hermaphrodites and intersex people, while not common, are documented all the time. I mean I posted a graphic about dick size in another thread just a few days ago. Society equates a bigger cock with more masculinity. WE, as writers of erotica, ridicule men with little dicks as less masculine all the time.

The issue for me, and for most(my word choice) transgender people is that our psychology doesn't match our biology and it drives us nuts.

Imagine being forced to wear clown makeup every day of your life with the big shoes and brightly colored clothes. You don't want to be a clown. You may even hate clowns, but you can't take the makeup off. Sounds like hell, doesn't it? I assure you, it is. I may have male genitalia but I don't want them. I find them abhorrent and have since before I hit puberty. My masculine features cause me no end of angst, but I'm forced to keep them by conditions beyond my control. I grew up in a time when the options available today weren't even a thought mush less a possibility.

So, am I a woman? I'd like to think so. I'd definitely like to be so.
Should I be allowed to present as one for the sake of my own sanity? Absolutely.
Should society be forced to accept me as a woman in all instances without question? Well, here I disagree with a lot of my sisters. It's not my place to force anything on anyone, just like it's not your place to force your ideologies on me. It's up to me to fit my presentation into society as best I can. Like I said, that's just me. Things like bathroom usage and play8ing sports need to be a collective decision taking into account all people impacted.

I personally think the whole pronoun thing is the ultimate example of narcissism, but, again, that's just me. He, she, it, call me what you want. Your opinion of me is none of my business.

What I wear and how I present doesn't impact you in any way shape or form. I'm not running around tackling men and forcing them into panties. Unfortunately, as a society, we don't understand gender dysphoria at all, and too few are making any effort to do just that. (again, kudos to OP for asking)
So fear and misinformation reigns supreme and 'we' cower in fear of what 'they' will do to us out of their ignorance.

Sure, no matter how I progress in my need to me more feminine, there will always be traces of my roots. The pelvis is biological gender specific, so any anthropologist that examines my skeleton a thousand years from now will have been very bored, and will know I was born male. At the same time, there are also receptors in the brain that show an almost ninety percent accuracy in identifying the gender of the deceased. Yeah, unfortunately this is a post mortem exam. What is interesting is that for documented transgender people, those receptors show the desired gender of the person, not the birth sex.
In men that have undergone radical loss of their genitals, phantom pain syndrome is present in over sixty percent. In post op trans women, it is non existent.

Is it as simple as sex at birth? Not by a long shot.

You want an explanation of your paradox. Segregation by 'race' has been a hot issue for hundreds if not thousands of years. In some instances, promoting racial division has become a for profit business and racial identity a commodity. Race has too much political power for people to just let it go, so you get the reactions you describe.

The transgender condition has been around just as long, but hasn't enjoyed the enflamed history until fairly recently.

Just my opinion, but I think the disparity in the social reactions you're seeing is those commodity brokers realizing that those divisions around race have been defined and documented over generations where the discussion of gender is just beginning. Those same commodities brokers are seeing it as another weapon in their arsenal of social divisiveness, and are making extreme demands on the behalf of the disenfranchised.

To some extent, I appreciate that. As a society, we just need time to figure out the best way to deal with a very real problem without being too intrusive on society while, at the same time, offering people like me access to the services and treatment we need for a very real issue we face every day.

 

[SimonDoom]

Perhaps. "I'm not paranoid, it's just that everyone's out to get me" comes pretty damn close, though.

Yeah, but I don't think anybody in this thread is saying that.

I believe people should be able to talk about difficult subjects and express a wide variety of opinions about those subjects without accusations of stupidity or bad faith. Some people seem to have a very hard time with that. They bring out the usual rhetorical tricks, including things like facile "dog whistle" arguments, to try to shame people and shut things down. Shame on them.

 

[XerXesXu]

If anyone is really interested in understanding how different persons and different groups can, in good faith, hold diametrically opposed beliefs about subjective truths, the matter has been studied scientifically and empirically, and all it takes is time and effort. It's not intuitive, it may be counterintuitive, but if you rise to the challenge, I'm sure you'd find it insightful and improve your ability to live tranquilly with other persons who are not you.

A neat little primer:

And something a little more turgid.

Grounded Theory Review

 

[SimonDoom]

So, am I a woman? I'd like to think so. I'd definitely like to be so.
Should I be allowed to present as one for the sake of my own sanity? Absolutely.
Should society be forced to accept me as a woman in all instances without question? Well, here I disagree with a lot of my sisters. It's not my place to force anything on anyone, just like it's not your place to force your ideologies on me. It's up to me to fit my presentation into society as best I can. Like I said, that's just me. Things like bathroom usage and play8ing sports need to be a collective decision taking into account all people impacted.

This all seems reasonable to me, and I sympathize, even if I have no idea how you feel. I have a question. Please feel no pressure to answer if it's too personal. When you identify as a woman, what does "woman" mean? Are there specific traits or features that you associate with being a woman that you have in mind? Traits of what you associate with men that you want to disassociate with? In keeping with the original post, does it boil down to one or two things or is it a lot more complex than that?

 

[lovecraft68]

People here need to be careful, don't want to end up like the guy in Ireland who was arrested for refusing to buy into and teach lies.

 

[AH_Mod]

Both of these threads will be closed. They've had the thinnest veneer of "writerly" since the beginning, and are both now devolving into political bickering, which is inevitable. If such threads continue to proliferate, I will begin moving them to the political forum where they belong instead of locking them.