3.14 by tigerjen

[tigerjen]

RisiaSkye.....

RisiaSkye wrote:
<<Not every piece of work suits every palate, tigerjen.
This isn't meant as an attack on you, but remember to
read the definition of the board--a forum to discuss the
work you love or hate. Someone can dislike a particular
work without it being a personal attack, unless you decide
to take it that way.
You get a lot of words for $.02, huh?>>

Hi Risia!
Just saw your reply.....yes....it is easy to forget at times
that this forum is for writings to be discussed, whether
they love or hate 'em! I know I have difficulty of handling
harsh criticism at times, but as time goes on I handle
it better one bit at a time........

TJ

 

[tigerjen]

Cyber catfight? Uhoh!

Yes, sweetbuns with a gun, you're entitled to
your opinion. But it would have been better to email
tj and tell her that her poem is stupid and her
self-promotion is tacky. But I'm glad you didn't!
It's more fun for this guy when you Lit chicks air
your dirty laundry. I like a good cyber cat fight.
Tigerjen, you need to jump in with claws and fangs
and go at it with KillerMuffin.

Darkwaves.......
I'd rather fight with my Literary claws and fangs and
see how that turns out!

TJ

 

[tigerjen]

Manjaro_Eve......

Manjaro_Eve wrote:
<<I think, perhaps, you are put off by the fact that tigerjen's "poem" is different. It doesn't follow the "rules." But do you always follow the rules? Poetry is about expressing yourself. So why can't tigerjen express herself one word at a time, and have her words considered as poetry? There are so many styles of poetry, and someone had to come up with them at some point. (I wonder if they had a problem in the beginning?) So, this is simply tigerjen's style... like an artist who splashes the canvas with his paint brush, frames it, and sells it for thousands. He's an artist and his work is art. Some love it, some don't, but it's still art. His art!
And in its own way, it is clever! I liked the pi - pie play on words, and how the list gradually and innocently went from one type of pie to something very different and sexual. Yes, it was simple... but original!
Keep expressing yourself tigerjen! >>

Thank you Manjaro_Eve!
You better believe that I'll keep expressing myself!
And yes......while for some poetry has a certain
"form"....some poetry is known as "free verse".....I do
it my way........I don't follow the rules......friends tell me
that I can be non-conforming

TJ

 

[tigerjen]

Such a sweet compliment!

Manjaro_Eve wrote:
<<Some of my long time, favorite poets and
authors: Lord Byron, Robert Burns, Percy
Bysshe Shelley, Chaucer, and Shakespeare...
and now tigerjen! What can I say? I have bizarre,
eclectic taste. >>

Thank you, thank you!
You are awesome!!!
(look for me someday on your local bookstore
shelf....whether it be Borders or Barnes and
Noble! hey ya never know...... )

TJ

 

[tigerjen]

REDWAVE....thank you!

Hey, Tigress-- the link to your member page doesn't work.
You might want to fix that.
As for 3.14, I think it's definitely not one of tigerjen's better
poems. But I don't think it's awful either. And hey-- when
you write a lot, they can't all be gems!
Re self-promotion-- sure, tj promotes herself, but she also
promotes other poets. And I don't think there's anything
necessarily wrong with self-promotion. To me, she doesn't
carry it to such an extreme where it becomes obnoxious.

REDWAVE...
Thanx for letting me know about my link to my page...is it the
one in my signature (in my replies)? Please let me know....

I did self-promote a bit too much quite a while back....but have
toned it down quite a bit to concentrate on promoting others'
work.

TJ

 

[Bluetrain]

Re: Bluetrain, YOU ROCK!

Bluetrain,
I want to say THANK YOU and that YOU ROCK!

I can always say to those who put down my stuff
"I told you so" but I won't. I think what Bluetrain
put up here makes a good point!

Any writings of yours would you like me to check out?

TJ

hmmm..you damn me with faint praise; or maybe praise me with faint damns...

my member page is:

http://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=1679

but don't expect much of anything good; "Lisa's" perhaps the best piece of writing simply because its natural. the others are self-indulgent cheese.

 

[daughter]

Free verse ain't free love

Thank you Manjaro_Eve!
You better believe that I'll keep expressing myself!
And yes......while for some poetry has a certain
"form"....some poetry is known as "free verse".....I do
it my way........I don't follow the rules......friends tell me
that I can be non-conforming

TigerJen--

Why do we throw terms around loosely? Free verse is a form. Why does the high school student know this, but artists on writers' forums don't? We've got a gazillion poetry sites with poetry definitions. Gawd forbid, they actually gives us a working definition for free verse. We define the story, article, novel, essay. Why do we reject that free verse means something more specific than "whatever the hell I say it is"?

Neophytes often spout off that free verse has no rules. These same folk couldn't tell you how free verse originated. If you don't follow any rules, why are you calling it poetry let alone free verse?

Do folks think free verse is a new phenomenon? Anyone know the difference between free verse and blank verse? We talk about forms as if they are perverse when free verse is the multi-faceted expression of forms.

When you're so arrogant that you can't admit what you don't know, you run a high risk of humilating yourself. Just speaking from experience. Don't think anyone is going to argue that I'm not opinionated and arrogant. I don't know an artist who isn't arrogant on some level.

Peace,

daughter

 

[REDWAVE]

Blank verse

I know the difference between free verse and blank verse. Shakespeare's plays were written in blank verse, as were Milton's epics. "Howl," by Allen Ginsberg, on the other hand, is definitely free verse.

Now (poetry quiz time)-- what's a sestina? What's the greatest double sestina in the English language?

(Ain't I a smartass?)

 

[daughter]

REDWAVE--

Yes, you a smartass. LOL Of course, the question wasn't directed at those who know was it?

Sestina--

That's a mid-afternoon nap, silly. LMAO

Peace,

daughter

 

[REDWAVE]

Cute

Cute, daughter.

 

[daughter]

Shucks

RED--

You left that one open. I couldn't resist.

Okay. Give me another. Name another form. I swear. I'll answer. Of course, if I don't know, you know I know where to find out. LOL

Peace,

daughter

 

[tigerjen]

re: free verse

I think that free verse comes in many forms........I guess
I'm non-conforming when it comes to writing.........

 

[Whispersecret]

Double post. Sorry.

 

[Whispersecret]

A sestina has six stanzas. Each stanza has six lines, of the same length--and a concluding three line stanza.

The lines of the six stanzas end with the same six words, which can, in the modern form, rhyme with each other.

The last three line stanza has to have all six of the terminal words, with three at the center and three at the ends.

The order the terminal words must be used is this:

1st stanza: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
2nd stanza: 6, 1, 5, 2, 1, 3
3rd stanza: 3, 6, 4, 1, 2, 5
4th stanza: 5, 3, 2, 6, 1, 4
5th stanza: 4, 5, 1, 3, 6, 2
6th stanza: 2, 4, 6, 5, 3, 1

Talk about rules. Anyone feel like writing a sestina?

And for the record, I'm in daughter's camp. You can't break rules successfully unless you know what they are in the first place.

 

[tigerjen]

People come to Literotica.....

to get pleasure out of reading some erotic stories and/or
poems......that is, at least most people. Most people
don't usually pay attention to "rules" of writing (at least
they pay attention to spelling and basic grammar) such
as how a poem should look, etc. Are people
forgetting the joy of being on Literotica and enjoying
hot writings, and instead decide to take the "joy" and
"fun" out of being on here by focusing on the abstracts
of form and grammar?

TJ

 

[Whispersecret]

While I understand your point, it's a mistake to assume that most people get joy out of reading something that is riddled with mistakes in grammar, etc.

There are dozens of stories that are far from perfect grammatically, yet have glowing feedback. There are many threads here on the bulletin board where people profess that they are well-able to overlook spelling mistakes and syntax errrors and enjoy a story.

However, I can show you a lot of my personal feedback that proves that there are people who really appreciate a story that has no errors.

There's no real way to know which is the way MOST PEOPLE approach their Literotica experience unless you took a serious poll that had a large enough response to guarantee some modicum of validity.

The nitty-gritty mechanics of writing (grammar, spelling, syntax, form) are not abstract. They're actually quite concrete. And, believe it or not, the purpose of their existence is to make it EASIER for people to enjoy reading what others write.

 

[WickedEve]

I'm sure many people who read the erotic poetry on this site do want it to be both erotic and follow the rules of poetry. I think if you can create such a poem, then you should! Usually, those are the best poems. And even if some or most readers aren't paying attention to all the rules of writing, that's no reason we shouldn't practice them.

This may be an adult site, but that doesn't mean there can't be good, grammatically correct, correctly punctuated stories, like many of the stories here. But even the poorly written stories, I believe, need to be shared. The author has something to say, something to share. He or she may need editing, but maybe that's not important for them because it's a one shot deal... a thrill for the writer. They need somewhere to go, and this is the place. Isn't that what literotica is all about? Isn't it a place for authors to participate by submitting their creations? Even if some creations resemble Frankenstein's monster.

We're all here for different reasons. To have fun, to learn, to share, to be aroused... Aroused! That's number one. This is an erotic site. So write well and remember to make it hot!

Hey, it's after 3 a.m. here. I probably won't even remember writing this when I get out of the bed in the morning.

 

[Guest]

What are the rules of poetry then? Who wrote them?

 

[WickedEve]

It really is good to know the rules of poetry, rules of writing, rules of breathing! lol If you choose not to follow them, then you don't have to.
I've been reading more lately about different styles and the "rules." You can find it all online.
You can even come up with your own new rules. Be daring! But don't come up with your own rules because you don't want to learn the basics.
And I will say this once again, I still think 3.14 is a poem! lol A poem that follows no rules. It's something new, and different, and something that pisses people off. That's probably why I keep calling that "list of words" a poem!

Now it's after 3:30 and I get stranger as it gets later!

 

[RisiaSkye]

There's a reason that people say of hugely successful authors (like Stephen King, for example) that they could "publish their grocery list" and be successful--because a simple list is pretty close to the lowest common denominator of writing. It's tangential, connected by a single principle, and largely structured around performance of a simple task (such as figuring out "getting the joke," or "deciding what to buy"). It's one dimensional, requires no knowledge of the history or common practices of an art form/craft, and requires no specific skill to construct.

I'm not trying to berate anyone or insult anyone's intelligence. However, I agree with daughter's suggestion that free verse is indeed a highly structured form in itself. I also disagree with the earlier claim that e.e.cummings and other writers of free verse didn't use form--in fact, cummings and many other free verse writers used several highly regimented, clearly articulated forms.

I've also written non-poetry. Some of it's experimental, playing with form and blending narrative and poetic styles into a single hybrid. It's an awkward process, and difficult to pull off. I don't think I've ever really succeeded; "Athletic Discipline" probably comes closest. So, I know what a bitch it is to work within the confines of form when you really just want to pour your ideas out there without editing them. I used to be of the "editing robs the work of life" school; in subsequent years, I've come to think of this position as incredibly arrogant. But, that's just me.

I think I came to this change of heart when I wrote a sestina, a series of sonnets, and a nine part stanzaic poem which begins in blank verse, diminishing line foot count in each part--all in rhyming quartets. What did I learn from all of this highly regimented, deeply anal retentive work? That form and editing are tough, but they teach focus and discipline.

But, that's just my opinion. I could be, as has been frequently suggested, entirely full of doody.

 

[Guest]

my, we're full of ourselves around here, aren't we?

 

[garyblue]

dont no nuthin bout potry but i no wot i lik

Forgive me the above as we forgive... Sorry, wrong poem.

I don't know many of the rules of poesy. I do believe our brains may be wired to appreciate the form, though. For ages before the written word, bards, minstrels, tellers of tales, and village pundits spread the news and kept the histories in poetic forms. There were the epics "Iliad," and "Beowulf." Norse eddas, and simple ballads were repeated mouth to ear, generation to generation. All because the human mind seems absorb the rhythms of the poetic form (a priori, no scientific evidence here).

Within my limited experience and massive ignorance of the field, every poet who stands with the giants had rhythm. From Homer to Shakespeare, from Khayam to Coleridge, or from Keats to cummings, all had rhythm. Nor can we forget the master of rhythm Ogden Nash, nor that queen among poets Dorothy Parker.

"Candy is dandy,
But liquor is quicker." --Nash

"Men don't make passes
At girls who wear glasses." --Parker

man it jist dont git no bettern that

In poetry there is rhythm in the flow and choice of words, in the meter, and the rhyme. There is rhythm in the flow of imagery, and the development of ideas.

I'm just old enough to remember the "beat" era and coffee house poetry and jazz. The poet, and I use the term generously, would often recite a list of words accompanied by one or a few musicians that were as clueless as he was. His rhythm usually came from the bongo he beat. Strangely, there was some very good poetry to come out of those lists. The words had rhythm as they flowed through shifting images, images that carried us along their undulations.

Ms tigerjen's "3.14" lacks this resonant flow of words, meter, rhyme, or imagery. Beginning with naming an object, pie, she continues with a static listing of types of pie. Then comes hairpie. Following our new object are not kinds of hairpie to perhaps balance and give rhythm to part one, but additional names for the object. Nor is this list of similar length to the first, again losing balance. The static list of pies fails to carry our image from apple pie to hairpie. Again, there is no rhythm. A connection is needed: apple; peach; pecan; mince; meat; hair. Something.

Having apparently trashed Ms Jen's work, I need to add that the concept is very interesting. The verbal connections among pi, pie, and hairpie is worth persuing. I think the poet was led astray by the seeming simplicity of the list style. It will require considerable word smithing to be successful in this genre.

g

 

[daughter]

Re: People come to Literotica.....

to get pleasure out of reading some erotic stories and/or
poems......that is, at least most people. Most people
don't usually pay attention to "rules" of writing (at least
they pay attention to spelling and basic grammar) such
as how a poem should look, etc. Are people
forgetting the joy of being on Literotica and enjoying
hot writings, and instead decide to take the "joy" and
"fun" out of being on here by focusing on the abstracts
of form and grammar?


TigerJen--

No. We have not forgotten. I'm no master at writing poetry and yet, I appreciate forms and rules without knowing them all. So does the reader. Writing is work. The writer attempts to make the difficult read easily. To the reader it is suppose to flow easily. For the writer, we work make the complex simple.

I believe it was gary who talked about how readers appreciate poetry in the past. Have you ever consider what the advantage of forms were for both the reader and writer in the past?

In the past, a form of entertainment was reciting it. While many enjoyed literature, only few owned it. People memorized verse. Poetry was loved partly because of its rhythm. That is found in rhyme and meter. That is a unique poetic device. Prose does not have rhythm.

Patterns and forms provide structure. This attributed to maintaining focus, rhythm and clarity in a work. I'd imagine this is favorable especially when you are listening to something instead of having the benefit of reading it over and over to get the meaning of something.

The beat poets were all intellectuals, educated and serious about their craft. They broke and redefine the bounds of poetry. They all also had studied them. Those cool lines flowed because these poets had solid foundations and experience at writing.

It's like learning to drive. You learn the rules. You practice driving. Years later, things you consciously had to recall, come easily, like second nature. But at first, you had to remember to check your mirrors, and likely timidly pull out in front of traffic.

Wicked Eve's stronger works are those written in forms. The structure gives the reader another element to enjoy. Down the line, she'll likely borrow aspects from different forms and incorporate them in her free verse. And they will be better for it.

Free verse often rhymes. Sorry, but that is a poetry device. Nothing new there. No broken rule. It is an element found in forms. People are arguing breaking rules and abandoning devices when they are in fact using them. That's the problem of not knowing the basics.

Peace,

daughter


TJ

 

[KillerMuffin]

The simple fact is that all the rules of poetry are built around a rhythm that human beings are naturally attracted to. Why? So people like me will be able to "feel" a poem. My poetry is full of pretty, or ugly, words but lacks the rhythm of good poetry. That's why my poetry sucks. It just doesn't have that rhythm.

All poetry has a flow to it that makes it move comfortably in our heads and makes it move comfortably from our tongues. The rules are built around this flow. So, if you want to know who wrote the rules of poetry, look in the mirror.

I don't like most poetry because most of it does not flow through me. Particularly amateur poetry. I am just not capable of appreciating a poem for what it is unless it's fantastic. Of course, I can deal with amateur prose, but we're talking about poetry and taste here. When I read poetry, I require masterful poetry that sings to me. like ee cummings and Elizabeth Barrett Browning. Why? That's just me. Some people like wine, but only if it's the best wine. Some people like steak, but only if it's been made a specific way.

I have read exactly one poem by tj, and that's the 3.14 one. I think it's a bad poem because it does not flow at all. Anyone can write lines and call it a poem. I did that, but it's difficult to read as a poem because my poetry is bad. You can read my poems line by line, but you can't read them as a poem. Try it sometime, read them out loud. You can't. You read 3.14 out loud and it's just a grocery list. Like someone else said before, it can be made into a good poem, it will just take some tinkering so that it flows.

Just my opinion.

 

[tigerjen]

I want to say thank you......

to those so far who have contributed their opinions
to this thread...I've read the more recent replies, and
while I don't have time to respond to each one
individually, I have say that this thead has been quite
an exchange of words, both postive and negative.

I love positive feedback, don't' get me wrong. Negative
feedback is the one that gets me at times, but slowly
am accepting it as part of the "learning and growing"
process in regards to writing. I respect those opinions
(whether I like them or not) of all thus far who have
contributed here in regards to this matter.

May I add that after Killer's comment about "3.14"
being a grocery list type, I thought it was quite a funny
comment?

TJ