9-11-01

[REDWAVE]

Reichstag fire

Yeah, I've written about 9/11, both poetry and prose. I posted commentary about it on the internet only about a couple of hours after it happened.

I first heard about from my upstairs neighbor. After she told me about it, I turned on my TV and watched that spectacular image of the jet hitting the second tower, which they played over and over and over . . . The scenes of Manhattanites running north away from the WTC, captured by a jiggling hand-held camera, were also quite striking.

I felt a deep sense of foreboding over it, not just because of the loss of life, but because I realized immediately the political purposes to which Bush would put it . . .

 

[Unmasked Poet]

yep

I have written a few papers on the subject. Engaged in some academic discourse. In fact I was reading a bad piece of writing when the news came on. I watched the attack while speaking with a former colleague who is employed by the State Department as a consultant. He told me a moment after the crash it was a terrorist response I did not believe him until the second plane hit.

I am far more concerned with 9/11/02 and beyond. A year later and we are still posturing and cocking the proverbial gun. While freedoms are quietly eroded for the sake of National Security and yet we are not any more secure by these actions. Our policies in Islamic countries has not improved, we have become more belligerent and more blundering. I am saddened that we have learned so little. A tragedy of this scale should make us not only stronger but also wiser.

U.P.

 

[Angeline]

Well Said UP!

I love my country--not in a blind nationalistic way, but because it is my home and with an appreciation for the easy ride I have had compared to others in many places across the world. America for all its foibles--and god there are so many, so may deep scars--is also at it's best something wonderful, Maybe even more important is that in this country the potential for greatness is there, whether or not it is fulfilled. Certainly, some would argue it never has been. Others just as stridently that it has.

My country has never understood. IMHO, the growing interdependence within the world--and the need to form fair partnerships that are mutually beneficial. That is a necessary evil of capitalism, maybe. But there is a legacy in all this. Yes thugs are thugs, terrorism is a heinous thing. And if you saw my poem, you know I live close enough to New York, to have personally witnessed the suffering. It was a horror. But it seems to me, and it is simply my opinion, that when you bully and posture, you help create an environment where fanatics can justify their crimes to less zealous types.

I really hope we can all take a deep breath, let it out slow and be calm. Be peaceful. Calm and peaceful are good. I don't want my children to have live through more of this because we have some empowered individuals who think we need to prove we have the biggest guns.

Um Peace,
Angeline, PhD
Pacifistic hussy Dupe

 

[Goodguy2]

Hey _Land

My Grand Father was an itallian Imigrant, he walked off the boat in 1902, and headed for the CA_NV Silver mines............... He fixed me pizza one time......................No tomato paste, he used a spinich based alfredo sauce, was made on a very thin crust, and Cut in to squares, it was served with a minced garlic dipping sauce...............I have never had Pizza so good since.............I asked him about it...........He just laughed and said the american way was the wrong way to make Pizza......... Americans didnt know how to cook..... He also made a fabulous Onion Fertata

Hey _land

I hear ya on the imigration thing. My Grandparents were too except my grandfather ended up in the Penn Steel factories. Cool you're a WOP too! LOL!

I went to Italy in 99 for three weeks. You talk about a drastic difference between "our" pizza and "theirs". There is no such thing as thick crust and sauce is nearly non-existent. Generally, they serve you a whole pizza that is generally not round and give you a fork and knife to eat it with. Pretty cool experience. Plus, they use white sauces (just like your grandfather did) as much as red. Ya gotta go if you have never been there.

GG2

 

[Goodguy2]

Angie!

and GG2, I like you and you are my pal. I even admit grudging respect for your doctorate (but cause it's you, not for the degree itself), but darnit--you're in my hometown, you'll just have to deal with local microbrew!

Hey, if I can get the stuff here in Idaho, I'm sure you can get it there! LOL!!

GG2

Thanks A

 

[beths-virtue]

where i was

I was in the middle of a parenting chat, online,

as per my usual, the television was off,
generally i try not to watch any tv,
in the chat , all the parents were asking about how to handle "it" with thier kids,..
i had not seen any news, so , had no clue what "it" was.. they all responded incredulously, that i wasnt aware of what was going on...

I listened on the discussion, pondering wether or not to let Ion witness what i was sure would be all over the television, finally, I resigned myself, to the fact , that, like all media monstrosities, there was no way I could shield him from it,
and by this time, i had an abiding rubber necking at the scene of an accident curiosity

I turned the tv on , around 11 am(central time) and watched in horror the replaying of the events,, i sat cuddled on the couch under a blanket with my son, while holding my daughter as she breast fed, shocked at the events unfolding on the screen..

The obvious questions ran through my head, what now, i started to panic, thinking, surely this wouldnt be all they were doing, there were bound to be more attacks

and i kind of half waited to hear that, LA , or Chicago, or some oTher major metro was being attacked....

I havent written any poetry about it... in a way, because i feel somewhat removed from it, ive only been to New York a few times, i knew no one who lived or worked in the area, i have friends, but , in my little group,
none of us lost anyone we know,
i feel terrible about my non emotional reaction to it...

Saddened by the zealous nature of my fellow countrymen...
and generally i keep that quiet, cause its not a really popular opinion, but, the fact remains,
i have several Muslim American friends, and they, have weathered a terrible terrible backlash, in fact, Azeem had to close his store, after the constant protests in front of it, scared his regular customers away.... and thats just one thing, does anyone else remember the attacks on muslims here in the US?, no, thats not "good news" so , it was mentioned , then forgotten...

in all, thats what hurts me the most, how quick we are to point fingers and lay blame....
at anyone who looks or acts diffrent,


one other issue i have is the aftermath of it..
We the United States, are sitting here as the shcool yard bully of the world, getting other countries to attack in Afghanistan , and now trying to go after Saddam Hussein

Threatening and coercing support from countries,

The media portrays countries like Pakistan , and anyone else who doesnt want to get into it, as evil, and anti America,

Not stopping to think, that after we drop the bombs, and fly the planes razing and burning cities, where will the survivors flee, good or evil, they will go to the next country...
and Pakistan is an already impoverished country, with serious concerns of its own...

Just, some days, i feel the media is a huge monster, digesting itself slowly, and forcing us to eat what it eats...and it embarrasses me to be part of it

So where does it end... now even though the expressed wishes of many of the families involved ,and wounded on 9-11 last year was that it not be "celebrated" , tv is filling the last 2 weeks, with nothing but, this story and that, about the events of that day....


The most terrible thing is, even now , a year later, had i wanted to shield my child from it, i couldnt, because its still going on...

its my two cents, and i will spend it as i want
Beth

 

[littlekateyes]

I agree with beths-virtue for the most part. I knew people whom lost their lives on 9-11, and had to explain to my son (whom birthday is 9-12) that something bad has happen in New York. The bottom line is war never solves anything, being prepare for future things would be wiser. Eye for an Eye, but then what about their survivors, and the aftermath. Will America grieve for those survivors, or sit back and continue with there own lives. I wish people would not lump people all together, but see them as individuals no matter what color they are. No matter what their beliefs are. Hatred only breeds hatred and ignorance.

 

[karmadog]

It's always easy to say, 'War is not the answer' just as it's all to easy to say, 'Kill 'em all and let God sort them out'.

Clearly, sometimes war is the answer. Believe me, when I was doing research into WWI, the war to end all wars (he said, ironically), I was amazed at the horror of the thing (Still the deadliest war in the history of the world).

At the end of that war, most people believed that no nation would ever go to war again because of the unprecedented devastation. Yet not even twenty years later, it happened again. Once Nazism had grown beyond a certain point, there was no other answer but violence.

This, however, is a different situation. I believe that there is a certain amount of violence required by the circumstances. But this situation requires a scalpel, not a hammer. Bush has only one tool in his mental toolbox--a rusty old hammer. And he intends to use it.

 

[REDWAVE]

Politics & pizza

Why, UP, you pinko commie liberal, you. Why do you hate America so much?


On the controversial subject of Italian vs. Americanized pizza, I take my stand firmly and unequivocably in favor of Italian pizza.

 

[karmadog]

They all need to eat Chicago-style pie! Gotta love Sicilians! I heard that Hoffa was hidden in a deep dish 'za.

 

[Rybka]

I am a fiscal conservative and a social liberal.

If we can't pay for it, then I am against it!

It's always easy to say, 'War is not the answer' just as it's all to easy to say, 'Kill 'em all and let God sort them out'.

FYI: "To easy" should be "too easy"

Two similar adages: If it sounds too good to be true. . . It probably is." and, "There are no easy answers to hard questions."

Maybe it is a testosterone thing, but I look forward to blowing a few people away. - As long as they are the "right" people (or should I say the "rite" people). I detest the phrase "collateral damage", but better their damage than mine - especially when they started it.

Perhaps it is because I live in New Hampshire (and in a contextual sense the U.S. is included), but if you break into my house or attack my family I will shoot you on the spot (and drag your body indoors if you fall outside)!


Regards,                   Rybka

 

[karmadog]

FYI: "To easy" should be "too easy"

Forgive me. I have a touch of arthritis in my fingers. I wonder if they were right about cracking my knuckles?

Maybe it is a testosterone thing, but I look forward to blowing a few people away. - As long as they are the "right" people (or should I say the "rite" people). I detest the phrase "collateral damage", but better their damage than mine - especially when they started it.

The difficulty lies in finding out who 'they' are. I have no problem whatsoever with killing those responsible for such a brutal attack. The world is clearly a better place without them, but I'd like us to be reasonably sure that we kill the right people. Terrorists are a cancer. Preventing them is nice, but once you've got them, you cut them out.

 

[Star At Sunrise]

ON SEPTEMBER 11, 2001

Two months previous to 9-11-01:

I was asleep downstairs in the basement
One of my roommates spoke from the stairwell
A voice floated down from the light

"Dude, Bill is dead."
I struggled to wake

Bill worked with both of us
We all bonded through work

He was riding on his motorcycle
When a car in the opposite lane crossed the yellow line.

On 9-11-01:

I was asleep downstairs in the basement
One of my roommates spoke from the stairwell
A voice floated down from the light

"Dude, a plane hit the World Trade Center."
I struggled to wake

"…and a plane hit the Pentagon."
I blinked in the darkness

"…and there’s another plane missing."
Now I was awake

But I thought,
"This has gotta be a joke!"

I went upstairs
To watch the news

When the twin towers fell
I thought, "Well, there’s something you don’t see every day."

Then I cried.

Especially for those firefighters who were climbing the stairs
And for the heroes who brought down the plane in Pennsylvania.

The terrorists were sending a message
Did we hear it?

If we are serious about preventing another 9-11, maybe we should try and understand WHY they hate America.

I'm reminded of science articles I read as a kid, where scientists were teaching language to dolphins and chimps. But if we're so damn smart, and we really want to communicate with them, why don't we learn THEIR language?

I'm not trying to compare the terrorists to animals, but obviously there seems to be such a gap in our communication that the only way for them to send a message is to slam our planes into our buildings.

There's gonna be a lot off stuff on TV Wednesday about it. A lot of sad, tragic stuff. But I'm afraid it will all go towards hitting our collective emotional gut, and very little, if any, actual analysis as to WHY 9-11 happened.

 

[Rybka]

If we are serious about preventing another 9-11, maybe we should try and understand WHY they hate America.

????HELLO???? - Maybe we should tell them WHY we (or at least I) love America?

If the soft hearted (or headed) women really want to defend reactionary Islam, perhaps they should go live in a "moderate" Muslim country. - I think I am safe in proposing that we would all be a lot poorer due to the lack of their input on this and all other forums.

Dang, it is nice to defend others' liberties when our own are not in danger!

Hey, there are a lot of idiots on the internet, and they all have the same rights (and, maybe, abilities) that we do.

Please protect the GOOD things before you attack the "less than perfect", aspects of our AMERICAN culture!

"They", the Camelkazies, are coming for YOU long before "They" are coming for me.

I will miss you all.

Allah Ackbar,             Rybka

 

[REDWAVE]

Camelkrazies!

Whoah! Look out for those Camekazies! They're heading in at three o'clock.

It may be an exaggeration to say war is never the answer, but I think it's safe to say war is seldom the answer. I certainly don't think war was the right answer here. All we did was kill a bunch of innocent people who had nothing to do with 9/11, and the ones we were trying to get (Al Qaeda and Taliban) mostly survived.

But the Taliban was ousted from power, and the world made safe for Unocal.

Let's hear it for the oil pipeline deal!

 

[Senna Jawa]

women in afganistan

Should there be a Literotica poll concerning Afganistan women under and after Taliban?

 

[Senna Jawa]

Re: women in afganistan

Should there be a Literotica poll concerning Afganistan women under and after Taliban?

Or should it be Saudi Arabia (and never mind Taliban)?

 

[Senna Jawa]

Re: Reichstag fire

Please, Redwave, kindly tell us why you have chosen "Reichstag fire" for the title of your post.

(Those who are not familiar with that historical event may check it on Internet; you should).

Regards,

 

[REDWAVE]

Senna Jawa

In answer to your question, it's a historical analogy between the two events (the Reichstag fire and the apparent terrorist attack on Sept. 11).
The Reichstag fire was a provocation by Hitler shortly after taking power, to create a state of emergency so he could then assume dictatorial powers.

 

[Senna Jawa]

Re: Politics & pizza

Why, UP, you pinko commie liberal, you. Why do you hate America so much?

Let me help you to give an idea to the participants of this forum, especially to the American part of it, of how communism tastes.

Of course the US communist party was just a joke, so let's skip it. The best example of communism in the US was McCarthyism. On surface, like fascism, it was anticommunistic. In reality, like fascism, it was the same as communism but for minor flavor differences like propaganda verbiage. McCarthyism was induced by communism, it needed communism, and communism needed McCarthyism. They were like bridge partners, they were not talking one to another but nevertheless, objectively looking at it, they were cooperating. Stalin loved having enemies, he was often inventing enemies, and McCarthyism was to him god-sent.

Now multiply McCarthyism by at least one million, and you get communism. In miniature, if you are American, start learning about communism by learning about McCarthyism, that for starters will give you about the best idea of what communism was.

BTW, until its fall, Communism/Moscow was THE supporter of terrorism, it was by far the greatest of them. "Moscow" is used here symbolically because you should include Moscow's satelite states as well. Hey, terrorists had good life in Europe during the communism. Now it's different, now it's the oil money which diverts hundreds of thousands of young people (including children!) from education, from learning arts and skills, and turns them into potential murderers. The brainwashed mothers of young murderers bless the death of their murderous children. Then sometimes after months the biological instinct overcomes the bloody euphoria, and the common, decent human and mothering feelings come back, at least partially. They miss their children, while the oil money produces new murderers.

 

[Senna Jawa]

mustached uncle Joe

Let me help you to give an idea to the participants of this forum, especially to the American part of it, of how communism tastes.

mustached uncle Joe



                mustached uncle Joe
                the greatest world's linguist ever
                had his way with words:

                        it's better to kill 99 innocents
                        then to let one guilty escape

                and he put money where his mustache was
                and he killed and killed and killed
                from Murmansk to Vladivostok




Wlodzimierz Holsztynski
    2002-09-09/10

 

[Senna Jawa]

Re: Senna Jawa

In answer to your question, it's a historical analogy between the two events (the Reichstag fire and the apparent terrorist attack on Sept. 11).
The Reichstag fire was a provocation by Hitler shortly after taking power, to create a state of emergency so he could then assume dictatorial powers.

Well, go on, spell it.

 

[karmadog]

W gives me the willies. Even more than the titular head of the 'Justice' Department.

As far as why they hate us, well, I've read that bin Laden has said that he hates the West because:

- We have multiple races living in (more or less) harmony.

- Women can do any job they can qualify for.

- We have freedoms to be obscene if we choose.

The bin Ladens of the world hate freedom. True, his stated goal is Palestinian statehood and US troops out of the Middle East, in particular Saudi Arabia, does anyone believe that if those two objectives were achieved he would suddenly cease terrorist activities?

If anyone does, I haven't heard about it. To the best of my knowledge, no one in the ME believes that. The al Qaedas, the al Ansars, the Hezbollahs of the world simply believe in random violence. Death and destruction are all they know.

As an aside, I read that in Afghanistan, newly free Afghanistan, they are opening schools for 'street urchins'. Do you know what they teach? Basic academics (reading, mathematics) and the arts (poetry and music). How wonderful that they think the arts are so basic. I suspect that a country deprived of music for fifteen years appreciates freedom and the arts like few others.

written with a bit of a buzz, so don't correct my spelling, please.