A letter

[Palba_Noruda]

Here is an exercise that I may have heard from Senna Jawa or maybe I read it. But I think it gets at the "justify every word" argument.

Write a poem or take one you've already written. It can be as long or as short as you like but shorter is probably better the first few times you try this. The exercise is to take words out. First take out every word you think you don't really need. Then go back and take out more words: reduce your poem by one quarter or one third or one half. Keep taking words out until you believe that losing even one word more would change the essential meaning of your poem. See what you think of what you have left. If you do this frequently, you will get better and better at editing your poems. You will get better at seeing whether the words you do choose support what you're trying to say. Most folks doing this will recognize that we overdecorate our poems or miss the point because we chose the wrong words.

I think that is a lovely exercise.

 

[Angeline]

I think that is a lovely exercise.

I read your earlier post and that's why I posted it. You said you were looking for good exercises, and that's a great one imo.

 

[twelveoone]

Now, since we all pretty much agree, heh, heh,heh
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=508480

byfridayam

Go practise your critical skills on this, because it is a shame something like that should only have one comment.

Back in the old days (6 years ago), there were giants here. Involvement. Freewheeling knockdown drag outs. Nobody got killed. What it failed to do was kill was the idea that <inspiration> makes the poetry.

I'm serious about this, what I've seen here I don't think I've ever seen before, I think I figured it out.

Involvement.
yaw'll had yur audience
give someone else the time
and Angeline did you quit commenting on poetry and settle in the comfy chair of Grand Old Dame
and Charley the only time I've seen semiotics in action is on your own material. You should know where the signs are there.
and Pabla enuff paradox talk, go see it. It ain't pretty. It took me three days. Now ask yourself why should I spend three days on a poem.
Because it's worth it, I learn, open your eyes.

The Senna Jawa exercise is all well and good, but sometimes it's good to have a little flesh on the bones.

edit
edit
edit (boiled down to..)
I'm
Self absorbed
edit
edit
edit

Always worth a second look they say in New Poems because of a little ambiguity

Sometimes I wonder what the ratio of posts vs comments are?
Go show what you've learned.
Do you think poetry is pretty? That's what poseurs think.

 

[Angeline]

I'm serious about this, what I've seen here I don't think I've ever seen before, I think I figured it out.

Involvement.
yaw'll had yur audience
give someone else the time
and Angeline did you quit commenting on poetry and settle in the comfy chair of Grand Old Dame
and Charley the only time I've seen semiotics in action is on your own material. You should know where the signs are there.
and Pabla enuff paradox talk, go see it. It ain't pretty. It took me three days. Now ask yourself why should I spend three days on a poem.
Because it's worth it, I learn, open your eyes.

The Senna Jawa exercise is all well and good, but sometimes it's good to have a little flesh on the bones.

edit
edit
edit (boiled down to..)
I'm
Self absorbed
edit
edit
edit

Always worth a second look they say in New Poems because of a little ambiguity

Sometimes I wonder what the ratio of posts vs comments are?
Go show what you've learned.
Do you think poetry is pretty? That's what poseurs think.

More like I quit reading it here. Also I'm writing a novel these days and am more absorbed in that than poetry. I will make the time and effort to comment if and when I'm moved to do so. Not being snarky; that's just my current state of being.

 

[Palba_Noruda]

Involvement.

Do you mean involvement on the lit poetry pages? Or on these forum pages? Or perhaps in a local in-person poetry group?

and Pabla enuff paradox talk, go see it. It ain't pretty. It took me three days. Now ask yourself why should I spend three days on a poem.
Because it's worth it, I learn, open your eyes.

It seems like you are talking about something interesting here, but I can't discern what it might be. Is there a link missing?

I'm lost.

 

[bronzeage]

Do you mean involvement on the lit poetry pages? Or on these forum pages? Or perhaps in a local in-person poetry group?

All are a good idea.

Most poetry forums require members to comment on at least three poems for each poem they post.

 

[twelveoone]

Do you mean involvement on the lit poetry pages? Or on these forum pages? Or perhaps in a local in-person poetry group?





It seems like you are talking about something interesting here, but I can't discern what it might be. Is there a link missing?

I'm lost.

I posted the link twice here, this morning again in new poems. I was curious to see if anyone had the same reaction.

 

[twelveoone]

All are a good idea.

Most poetry forums require members to comment on at least three poems for each poem they post.

and some of them get a little stuffy about substance, what I like about this place, is you can get away with "I like it" but that also is greatly abused.

Speaking of abuse. WickedEve had once posted a top 20 of commenters, how did she do that?

I think I had something like 1400, and best remembered for the one I didn't leave, a sad fucking commentary...

 

[twelveoone]

More like I quit reading it here. Also I'm writing a novel these days and am more absorbed in that than poetry. I will make the time and effort to comment if and when I'm moved to do so. Not being snarky; that's just my current state of being.

I'll bet you'll pay attention next week.
http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=254157&page=121

 

[bronzeage]

and some of them get a little stuffy about substance, what I like about this place, is you can get away with "I like it" but that also is greatly abused.

Speaking of abuse. WickedEve had once posted a top 20 of commenters, how did she do that?

I think I had something like 1400, and best remembered for the one I didn't leave, a sad fucking commentary...

In poetry, "I like it" is the lowest form of praise, but it's so little help, it does not serve as feedback.

Top 20 commentators? Ranked by quality or quantity?

 

[twelveoone]

In poetry, "I like it" is the lowest form of praise, but it's so little help, it does not serve as feedback.

Top 20 commentators? Ranked by quality or quantity?

you are right, it is not feedback, it is a comment, but at least it shows some one is out there, and I admit at least half of mine where lame, not up to usual quality of book blurbs

I can guarantee it was quantity; sardonic question, sardonic answer: some had the same eerie sameness to them - "yummy"; "witty word write"

you missed that era, bronzeage, when even the mildest of critiques was liked to the airplanes flying into the towers.

Should be fun doing the E's; a pairing of My Erotic Tail and MyNecroticSnail, that could be rich.
Ho, ho, ho - I love Christmas,

 

[Angeline]

I'll bet you'll pay attention next week.
http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=254157&page=121

If you or anyone else has something to say about a poem of mine, of course I'll be interested.

You know I put a lot of time into comments and reviews here. I think I do a pretty decent review; at least I try to raise some questions to maybe open a different direction to the writer. But like so many writers here I got tired of giving about 800 percent more than I got. For years I rarely got feedback and often when I did it was people reinforcing what they were used to about the way I write. There are (or were) people who had specific expectations about an "Angeline" poem. It was not helpful to me. Maybe I'm not explaining it precisely but I felt it wasn't good for me as a writer--I don't want to write the same thing over and over. And so I backed away from Lit. Writing fiction is a new path for me, one that is demanding in a different way from poetry. I want to pursue that now. And I really don't think I want to participate much as a poet anymore unless there's some system in place like Bronze mentioned: critique two or three poems for every poem you post for feedback. I don't want to put in a lot of time and effort in a place that doesn't help me as a writer, too.

 

[twelveoone]

If you or anyone else has something to say about a poem of mine, of course I'll be interested.

You know I put a lot of time into comments and reviews here. I think I do a pretty decent review; at least I try to raise some questions to maybe open a different direction to the writer. But like so many writers here I got tired of giving about 800 percent more than I got. For years I rarely got feedback and often when I did it was people reinforcing what they were used to about the way I write. There are (or were) people who had specific expectations about an "Angeline" poem. It was not helpful to me. Maybe I'm not explaining it precisely but I felt it wasn't good for me as a writer--I don't want to write the same thing over and over. And so I backed away from Lit. Writing fiction is a new path for me, one that is demanding in a different way from poetry. I want to pursue that now. And I really don't think I want to participate much as a poet anymore unless there's some system in place like Bronze mentioned: critique two or three poems for every poem you post for feedback. I don't want to put in a lot of time and effort in a place that doesn't help me as a writer, too.

I thought the readers should see two of the more popular writers, and popular for the right reasons. I think I saw 2,3 E's of yours. I glad jd4george was still there.
I'd like to see this place reach "critical mass" again.

 

[Palba_Noruda]

I'd like to see this place reach "critical mass" again.

I think sometime in the last couple of years, there has been a conversation or two about how people use the forum and how they use literotica.com and what kind of expectations they have etc.

For example, I enjoy the theory threads here on this forum.

I do a lot writing in notebooks, and then I type up some writing and bring it to a live feedback group.

I have gained a lot by working on my sketchbook thread, which are basically second drafts; it's writing I want to take from my notebooks and key into my computer, and sometimes that is more fun to do on a live site rather than into a rather lifeless word processing program.

I enjoy the suddenly passion thread, usually when I come home from being out on the weekend and feel like reading what other people have been up and trying to co-opt and ingest their words.

I've enjoyed some of the other threads on and off. And I am sure I will enjoy more unique and fun thread ideas that people have from time to time. Right now I'm thinking it would be fun to have a re-write some poems thread where people are encouraged to steal and borrow and rewrite whatever gets put into the thread. That's my kind of writing LOL.

This is a neat group of people and a neat internet place to visit. I like the people here and the energy.

1201, I am glad you are making a push to reinvigorate the feedback and commenting situation. It looks like a lot of fun and a valuable exercise for many people. I think you are doing a good job.

I thought before when this conversation was happening, and posted as such, that it would really neat to have a thread that is basically a survey of ways people use the forum, ways people use literotica.com, etc. The survey could include goals and expectations people have when they visit, how has their relationship to the sites changed over time, what kinds of things they'd like to see in a perfect world, etc.

That sort of conversation could be interesting, and might ultimately help revive the commenting and critiquing scenario.

 

[butters]

I, too, should like to thank 1201 for the energy he's bringing to the forum. Normally I'd be here more often to interact to a greater extent; it's regretful I lack the time right now. Hopefully, once xmas arrives, I'll be able to get back to devoting more time to commenting/critting/adding my own writing.

 

[twelveoone]

I, too, should like to thank 1201 for the energy he's bringing to the forum. Normally I'd be here more often to interact to a greater extent; it's regretful I lack the time right now. Hopefully, once xmas arrives, I'll be able to get back to devoting more time to commenting/critting/adding my own writing.

did I tell YOU, i look like Russel Crowe?

 

[twelveoone]

If you or anyone else has something to say about a poem of mine, of course I'll be interested.

You know I put a lot of time into comments and reviews here. I think I do a pretty decent review; at least I try to raise some questions to maybe open a different direction to the writer. But like so many writers here I got tired of giving about 800 percent more than I got. For years I rarely got feedback and often when I did it was people reinforcing what they were used to about the way I write. There are (or were) people who had specific expectations about an "Angeline" poem. It was not helpful to me. Maybe I'm not explaining it precisely but I felt it wasn't good for me as a writer--I don't want to write the same thing over and over. And so I backed away from Lit. Writing fiction is a new path for me, one that is demanding in a different way from poetry. I want to pursue that now. And I really don't think I want to participate much as a poet anymore unless there's some system in place like Bronze mentioned: critique two or three poems for every poem you post for feedback. I don't want to put in a lot of time and effort in a place that doesn't help me as a writer, too.

Seriously both you and jd4george, are probably the first two people new writers should look at - I don't know how it will help you or jd4george. Do you know that a times, I've gotten requests from new writers about how to write, the best place to start is a good linear writer (I think I referred one to you once - read that, and for god's sake, don't even try half the stunts I pull - Hiding the "I" behind mirrors.
Senna has a good one for what is crucial (I think) for a short poem (ambiguity).

So I'm getting an idea... I hope the chipster doesn't object. Start with the real basic basics, like formatting, keeping it down to 20 lines or less, what is important at the end of line, etc. etc. see, these people did it. Sometimes I hate to break it to new writers that Keats has been dead for well over 100 years, and even if you did learn to write like him, well who would want to read it, because there is always Keats in finer used book stores anywhere. I think I got mine for $1.

 

[Angeline]

Seriously both you and jd4george, are probably the first two people new writers should look at - I don't know how it will help you or jd4george. Do you know that a times, I've gotten requests from new writers about how to write, the best place to start is a good linear writer (I think I referred one to you once - read that, and for god's sake, don't even try half the stunts I pull - Hiding the "I" behind mirrors.
Senna has a good one for what is crucial (I think) for a short poem (ambiguity).

So I'm getting an idea... I hope the chipster doesn't object. Start with the real basic basics, like formatting, keeping it down to 20 lines or less, what is important at the end of line, etc. etc. see, these people did it. Sometimes I hate to break it to new writers that Keats has been dead for well over 100 years, and even if you did learn to write like him, well who would want to read it, because there is always Keats in finer used book stores anywhere. I think I got mine for $1.

If you didn't know this, 1201, I am sorry to tell you that jd4george, like smithpeter and rybka, is gone from us. Fortunately his poems are still here. How many people tell their friends they're archiving poems here? And he was a more active poet than me, a man who did readings (and taught, I think, but I'm not sure about that). I think his poems convey his strong sense of the spoken word and authenticity. His poems feel real to me. Maybe that's what you mean by a good linear writer.

You know I idolize Lester Young and he was described as a melodic line player. I don't think I'm too far from there. I hope readers don't have to stray too far in the imagination to get what I have to say. I like narratives (one reason, I think, that I'm so into writing fiction at the moment); our lives are stories, we think in stories, we even dream in them.

As for formatting, my sense of where a line can end is instinctive. I go back and read and feel the rhythm of what I've produced and see where the line endings feel right. That's not hard to do if you read your poems aloud and decide where you want to emphasize. And there is an interplay between the end word on one line and the start word on the next. I'm often interested in manipulating that interplay and using words that move the poem in an unexpected direction. There's a predictable way to go and then...a range of other options. I like other options.

And if I wanted someone to feel rhythm I'd recommend Yeats or Langston Hughes. You can't read Hughes and not hear the blues. And Yeats is just songlike, to me in the most beautiful way. Keats and the Romantics? For me, not so much but I don't think anyone ever taught me how to love them properly. Perhaps someone like Lord Byron (the poster here, that is) can disabuse me of my lack of love for them.

 

[twelveoone]

If you didn't know this, 1201, I am sorry to tell you that jd4george, like smithpeter and rybka, is gone from us.


As for formatting, my sense of where a line can end is instinctive. I go back and read and feel the rhythm of what I've produced and see where the line endings feel right. That's not hard to do if you read your poems aloud and decide where you want to emphasize. And there is an interplay between the end word on one line and the start word on the next. I'm often interested in manipulating that interplay and using words that move the poem in an unexpected direction. There's a predictable way to go and then...a range of other options. I like other options.

And if I wanted someone to feel rhythm I'd recommend Yeats or Langston Hughes. You can't read Hughes and not hear the blues. And Yeats is just songlike, to me in the most beautiful way. Keats and the Romantics? For me, not so much but I don't think anyone ever taught me how to love them properly. Perhaps someone like Lord Byron (the poster here, that is) can disabuse me of my lack of love for them.

My God, I'm sorry to about jd4george.

instinctive is what they all do. well since that one guy whose name I forgot

Yeats was not a fan of iambic pentameter, more accentual, more ballad based, thus more songlike. Am I correct in that he only wrote one sonnet? And it happens to be maybe one of the ten I like, out of about 300 english sonnets that I suffered through. I always got the feel of legal arguments from most of them, and then..I read in Fussel's book that iambic pentameter tends to sound judicious. And I always thought I was just wrong and dumb..'till ishmael Reed told me I too could be a cowboy in the boat of Ra,a sidewinder in the saloons of fools...goodby Keats, Hunt, hello post modernism.
Here comes Johnny Derrida the simplifyin' man

 

[butters]

did I tell YOU, i look like Russel Crowe?

no, no you did not. tell me, do you look as good half-naked and sweaty in leather?

or did you mean more russel the crow?

Seriously both you and jd4george, are probably the first two people new writers should look at - I don't know how it will help you or jd4george. Do you know that a times, I've gotten requests from new writers about how to write, the best place to start is a good linear writer (I think I referred one to you once - read that, and for god's sake, don't even try half the stunts I pull - Hiding the "I" behind mirrors.
Senna has a good one for what is crucial (I think) for a short poem (ambiguity).

So I'm getting an idea... I hope the chipster doesn't object. Start with the real basic basics, like formatting, keeping it down to 20 lines or less, what is important at the end of line, etc. etc. see, these people did it. Sometimes I hate to break it to new writers that Keats has been dead for well over 100 years, and even if you did learn to write like him, well who would want to read it, because there is always Keats in finer used book stores anywhere. I think I got mine for $1.

nothing to object to at all.

 

[twelveoone]

or did you mean more russel the crow?

oops discovered,
I once went under a different name "Flippy the Bird" but "Russel the Crow' sounds so much sweatier

Don't tell Vrose,


she still thinks I'm sexy

Best, beautiful

If I'm ever in Manchester again....

I'll have to figure out which one i'm in.

 

[Angeline]

My God, I'm sorry to about jd4george.

instinctive is what they all do. well since that one guy whose name I forgot

Yeats was not a fan of iambic pentameter, more accentual, more ballad based, thus more songlike. Am I correct in that he only wrote one sonnet? And it happens to be maybe one of the ten I like, out of about 300 english sonnets that I suffered through. I always got the feel of legal arguments from most of them, and then..I read in Fussel's book that iambic pentameter tends to sound judicious. And I always thought I was just wrong and dumb..'till ishmael Reed told me I too could be a cowboy in the boat of Ra,a sidewinder in the saloons of fools...goodby Keats, Hunt, hello post modernism.
Here comes Johnny Derrida the simplifyin' man

If Yeats wrote one sonnet, I don't know about it. I could look it up but maybe you can tell me which it is if you recall (or someone else can). It wouldn't surprise me. Yeats was pretty modern himself, in the context of when he wrote, in that he played with genres.

I know what you mean (I think) about iambic pentameter. It probably sounded pretty similar to speech in Elizabethan London, but now not really. I can read Shakepeare's sonnets and marvel at the word choice and how he strained the human condition into those little polished gems. But for the sonnet as a form, I rather prefer Ted Berrigan who sounds more familiar to my ears.

SONNET 34

Time flies by like a great whale
And I find my hand grows stale at the throttle
Of my many faceted and fake appearance
Who bucks and spouts by detour under the sheets
Hollow portals of solid appearance
Movies are poems, a holy bible, the great mother to us
People go by in the fragrant day
Accelerate softly my blood
But blood is still blood and tall as a mountain blood
Behind me green rubber grows, feet walk
In wet water, and dusty heads grow wide
Padré, Father, or fat old man, as you will,
I am afraid to succeed, afraid to fail,
Tell me now, again, who I am

–Ted Berrigan

 

[Tzara]

If Yeats wrote one sonnet, I don't know about it. I could look it up but maybe you can tell me which it is if you recall (or someone else can). It wouldn't surprise me. Yeats was pretty modern himself, in the context of when he wrote, in that he played with genres.

"Leda and the Swan" is a sonnet:

A sudden blow: the great wings beating still
Above the staggering girl, her thighs caressed
By the dark webs, her nape caught in his bill,
He holds her helpless breast upon his breast.

How can those terrified vague fingers push
The feathered glory from her loosening thighs?
And how can body, laid in that white rush,
But feel the strange heart beating where it lies?

A shudder in the loins engenders there
The broken wall, the burning roof and tower
And Agamemnon dead.
...............................Being so caught up,
So mastered by the brute blood of the air,
Did she put on his knowledge with his power
Before the indifferent beak could let her drop?​

Rhymed, somewhat oddly, ababcdcdefgefg, like a mixture of English and Italian sonnet. I don't know if he wrote any others.

I know what you mean (I think) about iambic pentameter. It probably sounded pretty similar to speech in Elizabethan London, but now not really. I can read Shakepeare's sonnets and marvel at the word choice and how he strained the human condition into those little polished gems. But for the sonnet as a form, I rather prefer Ted Berrigan who sounds more familiar to my ears.

SONNET 34

Time flies by like a great whale
And I find my hand grows stale at the throttle
Of my many faceted and fake appearance
Who bucks and spouts by detour under the sheets
Hollow portals of solid appearance
Movies are poems, a holy bible, the great mother to us
People go by in the fragrant day
Accelerate softly my blood
But blood is still blood and tall as a mountain blood
Behind me green rubber grows, feet walk
In wet water, and dusty heads grow wide
Padré, Father, or fat old man, as you will,
I am afraid to succeed, afraid to fail,
Tell me now, again, who I am

–Ted Berrigan

Sherman Alexie has written some interesting sonnets that usually flow pretty well as natural speech. I personally feel more comfortable with a four-beat line, which perhaps reflects the truncated speech of our time(?).

God knows what that will lead to when the convention turns to something like shl i cmpr 3 2 a smmrs dA?

 

[Angeline]

"Leda and the Swan" is a sonnet:

A sudden blow: the great wings beating still
Above the staggering girl, her thighs caressed
By the dark webs, her nape caught in his bill,
He holds her helpless breast upon his breast.

How can those terrified vague fingers push
The feathered glory from her loosening thighs?
And how can body, laid in that white rush,
But feel the strange heart beating where it lies?

A shudder in the loins engenders there
The broken wall, the burning roof and tower
And Agamemnon dead.
...............................Being so caught up,
So mastered by the brute blood of the air,
Did she put on his knowledge with his power
Before the indifferent beak could let her drop?​

Rhymed, somewhat oddly, ababcdcdefgefg, like a mixture of English and Italian sonnet. I don't know if he wrote any others.
Sherman Alexie has written some interesting sonnets that usually flow pretty well as natural speech. I personally feel more comfortable with a four-beat line, which perhaps reflects the truncated speech of our time(?).

God knows what that will lead to when the convention turns to something like shl i cmpr 3 2 a smmrs dA?

I never knew that though I remember studying the poem in a survey of late 19th to early 20th c. English lit. Oh well. My prof must have told us, but I was obviously not listening. Thanks for that info, Tzed.

 

[twelveoone]

And Agamemnon dead.
[Rhymed, somewhat oddly, ababcdcdefgefg, like a mixture of English and Italian sonnet. I don't know if he wrote any others.
Sherman Alexie has written some interesting sonnets that usually flow pretty well as natural speech. I personally feel more comfortable with a four-beat line, which perhaps reflects the truncated speech of our time(?).

God knows what that will lead to when the convention turns to something like shl i cmpr 3 2 a smmrs dA?

yeah that one, I don't think he wrote any more either;I like eecummings' sonnets too.
What is weird, is I don't mind the translations of Baudelaire, and sometime Rilke, although most of translations seem to be bad for Rilke.
Maybe you like the four beat line 'cause you're American?
Hey, best wishes