A Master's 'right' to play with others

[JMohegan]

pyl doesn't equal doormat. I am sorry, but accepting that your PYL has an automatic right to go out and play with others, if you are not happy about it, just doesn't fly. Would you let your vanilla husband/partner go out and play around? Why should it be any different just because he calls himself a PYL?

Non-doormat folks can, and should, take care in delineating the terms of the agreement to which they commit. If non-monogamy is a deal breaker, that should be explicitly stated upfront.

If an s commits to a relationship in which the D has the right to do with others as he pleases, and then subsequently discovers that he/she can't handle the stress or misery that ensues.... then it's time to admit that the s erred in making the original commitment, and go back to square one . Acknowledge that he/she made a commitment they can't follow through on, and either terminate the relationship or ask the D to start over with altered terms.

 

[JMohegan]

I think this might be what he was trying to say, but instead he came out with a flurry of rage at the concept of D/s in general. What I got from his post was that he can't find a girlfriend who won't expect anything of him, won't top from the bottom, etc. I agree with you that D/s involves deference, but that's not what I got from Marquis at all.

As for deference, I maintain that it should be discussed as equals, because if either party is against it, deep in their soul (regardless even of what their conscious mind says), then it will create a pain and sorrow so deep, a despair so profound, that it will fatally damage the relationship.

I speak from first hand experience. If it's truly not okay with the sub that the dom sees other people, they are setting themselves up for trouble.

Hopefully he'll clarify shortly.

I agree that the terms serving as the foundation of any relationship should be discussed and agreed to by both parties as equals, and that each should avoid committing to that which will torture their souls and render the relationship unsustainable.

Looking at this from the Top side, though, I understand frustration with those who commit to something and then renege on that commitment, or try to work around it with manipulation, bargaining, etc. - even on far less prickly issues than monogamy v. non-monogamy. That's what I'm reading into Marquis' rant here.

 

[Etoile]

And if a submissive isn't okay with the Dom seeing other people, that doesn't make the sub "not a real sub". I think everyone is entitled to their own limits, regardless of labels. Limits do not a sub make.

Seconded!

 

[Etoile]

Go start another thread about what counts as time together. This one is about poly relationships.

 

[Primalex]

This one is about poly relationships.

Not any longer.

 

[Cattypuss]

What's up with this need to throw your weight around today, Primalex? I've seen your entry in the "What would you order?" thread. I used to work with a barrister who as a young man had worked with an old barrister who always insisted on writing his Opinions in ancient Greek. What a tosser.

 

[Etoile]

Not any longer.

Now it is. Go here for the other conversation:
http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=748111

 

[Primalex]

What's up with this need to throw your weight around today, Primalex? I've seen your entry in the "What would you order?" thread.

Why don't you just answer my question?


(And I think that these kind of "online surveys" are just a cheap way to circumvent real work (I wonder how people managed their lifes at all without the internet...) and just lousy students would go this route - but maybe I'm wrong and then it would be unfair for me to not help this person and deny him/her my opinion. So all the person needs to do is to invest maybe 20 seconds total to translate my answers - a fair price. And it's up to the inquirer to make the decision, which is much better than me making the decision to not answer at all, isn't it?)

 

[Primalex]

Now it is. Go here for the other conversation:
http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=748111

Cool.

Now make this for all my threads I have created over the last 3 years and that got hijacked with different topics (and where you didn't mind at all).

Then you can come back.

 

[Etoile]

Cool.

Now make this for all my threads I have created over the last 3 years and that got hijacked with different topics (and where you didn't mind at all).

Then you can come back.

Like all moderating tasks, we can't be everywhere at all times. If you are disturbed by a thread going off topic, you are welcome to report it. We don't retroactively tidy things up; if you want your threads split, it is incumbent on you to specify which posts are off topic.

 

[Primalex]

Like all moderating tasks, we can't be everywhere at all times.

Oh please!

You aren't going to tell me now that you usually tidy up threads and just a few of them get by unnoticed, are you? You just don't like the hijack of this particular thread because you are fond of this thread.

(I might even bet that this split was the first time you did this.)

if you want your threads split, it is incumbent on you to specify which posts are off topic.

You managed to make the decision here, too, without the help of Black Bunny reporting which are offtopic.


But okay, I'm a sportsman - I'll switch and you'll be my crusader in my next thread, defending my right to just have the topic discussed I set in my thread. Fair enough, isn't it?

 

[Etoile]

Oh please!

You aren't going to tell me now that you usually tidy up threads and just a few of them get by unnoticed, are you? You just don't like the hijack of this particular thread because you are fond of this thread.

(I might even bet that this split was the first time you did this.)



You managed to make the decision here, too, without the help of Black Bunny reporting which are offtopic.


But okay, I'm a sportsman - I'll switch and you'll be my crusader in my next thread, defending my right to just have the topic discussed I set in my thread. Fair enough, isn't it?

I split the threads because I thought both were worthwhile discussions. I didn't want to see the original get replaced by the new one, but I wanted the new one to continue too. I thought the best way to achieve this was by splitting them. If I see this happening again, or if somebody (not just the thread starter, nobody "owns"a thread) calls it to my attention, I will do it again. It's not so much removing a hijack as it is preserving two valid discussions.

It's not the first time I've done this. Actually, it was your "not anymore" comment that made me think to do it this time.

 

[Primalex]

I split the threads because I thought both were worthwhile discussions. [...] I thought the best way to achieve this was by splitting them.

You could try "Please" next time.

Actually, it was your "not anymore" comment that made me think to do it this time.

That's the pain in the ass with comments - they often generate replies. Like your presumption here that splitting threads would have a meaningful result without the consent of the participants.

 

[Etoile]

You could try "Please" next time.



That's the pain in the ass with comments - they often generate replies. Like your presumption here that splitting threads would have a meaningful result without the consent of the participants.

If you have a problem with the way I moderate, you are welcome to send Laurel a note about it. I don't have further comments on the matter.

 

[ownedsubgal]

His right? Well yes it is. Am i gonna be happy about it? No fucking way. And I would repectfully (one can only hope) mention how I feel, but it is still his decision.

this is closest to my feelings on the subject, if we are talking about an actual poly relationship and not simply sexual/casual relationships with other people. it would be (and was) completely devastating to me, but as Master he has that right.

i also cannot agree with Etoile in that this particular issue, or any other for that matter, must be discussed and negotiated as "equals." we are not equals, and are not entitled to the same things within a relationship, why pretend as if we are?

 

[Etoile]

this is closest to my feelings on the subject, if we are talking about an actual poly relationship and not simply sexual/casual relationships with other people. it would be (and was) completely devastating to me, but as Master he has that right.

i also cannot agree with Etoile in that this particular issue, or any other for that matter, must be discussed and negotiated as "equals." we are not equals, and are not entitled to the same things within a relationship, why pretend as if we are?

I guess my point is that if it is not discussed as equals - which, okay, not everyone will do that - then there is the potential for damage to the relationship. Going poly against your will can destroy you. It's unlike any other change you could make...it burns. And I know, osg, that you still wouldn't ask to be released in that situation, you never would - but your heart would hurt, constantly.

IMHO, going poly against the sub's will is delinquent of the dominant. It's damaging your property. Don't fuck up your toys, then you won't get to play with them anymore. (Or it won't be as much fun to play with them, if they're broken.)

Can it be done? Of course. But it's gonna fuck shit up.

I've been there.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I guess my point is that if it is not discussed as equals - which, okay, not everyone will do that - then there is the potential for damage to the relationship. Going poly against your will can destroy you. It's unlike any other change you could make...it burns. And I know, osg, that you still wouldn't ask to be released in that situation, you never would - but your heart would hurt, constantly.

IMHO, going poly against the sub's will is delinquent of the dominant. It's damaging your property. Don't fuck up your toys, then you won't get to play with them anymore. (Or it won't be as much fun to play with them, if they're broken.)

Can it be done? Of course. But it's gonna fuck shit up.

I've been there.

i know you've been there, and so have i. you are dead-on when you describe the constant pain. if you're not wired that way, you just aren't, so heck yes it will be hard as !@#$%^&* for you. but perhaps the difference between us is that i committed to a relationship without personal rights or entitlements...even that to happiness...from day one. obviously such a scenario was not my ideal, but i accepted it as a possibility. i accepted that because my life was now in the hands of someone else, they could very well make that life quite miserable and that is just the way it would be. so when the poly thing happened, it broke my heart and shattered dreams, but it did not break us because "us" is defined by a relationship between a person with rights, and person without them.

and unfortunately i think that many new, starry-eyed and vulnerable submissive-types enter the D/s lifestyle and make commitments they truly don't understand, which may go against their very nature even, because they just cannot imagine that their Master may possibly take those vows, that commitment, literally.

 

[Marquis]

I'm not in a happy place right now, at least as far as romantic stuff goes.

I wasn't really trying to get across any particularly cogent point. I do think it's worth mentioning that there is another side to this, the pain that Dom's experience as well. I suppose that should make me MORE sympathetic to the pain of a sub, not less.

Truthfully, there's a lot of smart people on this board giving great, constructive advice.

The things that you said about me Satindesire, are very true. I know that sometime in the future there will be happiness for me and I will have learned from my experiences but now I am still in the muck of it.

 

[everhardxx]

what happens to you

Bwhahaha....I am so far from a doormat. My mouth can and does get me into trouble.
I think he will take my feelings into consideration, just as I will do what he says because that is what I have agreed to. It would make me very unhappy were he to play with others and he knows that. If there are others there, I would most likely be involved. Still, ultimately, bottom fucking line, I will do what I am told. Why? Because I want to please him and he more than pleases me.

What happens to you when your mouth gets you in trouble?

 

[satindesire]

The things that you said about me Satindesire, are very true. I know that sometime in the future there will be happiness for me and I will have learned from my experiences but now I am still in the muck of it.

Something that I've always wondered about sociopaths...is it possible for them to learn compassion and empathy? Can they learn from and benefit from therapy?

I assume they cannot due to a fundamental disconnection between emotions and how to treat people with empathy for them.

Do you have the capability for empathy or are you removed from humanity?

Have you ever been to therapy? Did it help, if you did?

I am totally OT, I know. Please forgive me.

 

[Cattypuss]

Something that I've always wondered about sociopaths...is it possible for them to learn compassion and empathy? Can they learn from and benefit from therapy?

I assume they cannot due to a fundamental disconnection between emotions and how to treat people with empathy for them.

Do you have the capability for empathy or are you removed from humanity?

Have you ever been to therapy? Did it help, if you did?

I am totally OT, I know. Please forgive me.

I am fascinated by questions like this too. I speak to a lot of sociopaths in my voluntary work and this very question often occurs to me. Can empathy ever be learned?

 

[eastern sun]

I am fascinated by questions like this too. I speak to a lot of sociopaths in my voluntary work and this very question often occurs to me. Can empathy ever be learned?

The research I've done in this area suggests that the primary window for learning empathy takes place during infancy as the child learns to bond with its caregivers. If an infant is profoundly neglected at this stage of development, the brain structures (i.e. neural pathways) that underlie empathy may never have been fully developed.

I've worked with people who have developed an ability to empathize later in life who attributed it to either their ability to reason their way to an understanding of other people's perspectives or to major emotional/spiritual upheavals (a.k.a. spiritual awakenings) that opened up new ways of thinking and behavior. I think, it's most likely, in these cases, that the neural pathways already existed, they were just rarely exercised as the child matured.

(This is fairly old research though, and I'd be curious whether other people have different understandings of the development of empathy.)

 

[Cattypuss]

The research I've done in this area suggests that the primary window for learning empathy takes place during infancy as the child learns to bond with its caregivers. If an infant is profoundly neglected at this stage of development, the brain structures (i.e. neural pathways) that underlie empathy may never have been fully developed.

I've worked with people who have developed an ability to empathize later in life who attributed it to either their ability to reason their way to an understanding of other people's perspectives or to major emotional/spiritual upheavals (a.k.a. spiritual awakenings) that opened up new ways of thinking and behavior. I think, it's most likely, in these cases, that the neural pathways already existed, they were just rarely exercised as the child matured.

(This is fairly old research though, and I'd be curious whether other people have different understandings of the development of empathy.)

Ooh! Ooh! All my fascination buttons are being pushed! Someone who knows something abut this needs to start a thread about it! I also wonder about lack of empathy vs empathy in a dom/sadist - how the difference affects the PYL, how it affects the pyl and how it affects their dynamic.

 

[satindesire]

The research I've done in this area suggests that the primary window for learning empathy takes place during infancy as the child learns to bond with its caregivers. If an infant is profoundly neglected at this stage of development, the brain structures (i.e. neural pathways) that underlie empathy may never have been fully developed.

I've worked with people who have developed an ability to empathize later in life who attributed it to either their ability to reason their way to an understanding of other people's perspectives or to major emotional/spiritual upheavals (a.k.a. spiritual awakenings) that opened up new ways of thinking and behavior. I think, it's most likely, in these cases, that the neural pathways already existed, they were just rarely exercised as the child matured.

(This is fairly old research though, and I'd be curious whether other people have different understandings of the development of empathy.)

I've often seen people who aren't affectionate or don't like to be touched displaying sociopathic tendencies, and often say things like "My parents weren't affectionate to me." and otherwise.

Is it truly just infancy or is the disconnect between humanity and emotions and themselves fostered through a non-nurturing childhood as well?

 

[Etoile]

i know you've been there, and so have i. you are dead-on when you describe the constant pain. if you're not wired that way, you just aren't, so heck yes it will be hard as !@#$%^&* for you. but perhaps the difference between us is that i committed to a relationship without personal rights or entitlements...even that to happiness...from day one. obviously such a scenario was not my ideal, but i accepted it as a possibility. i accepted that because my life was now in the hands of someone else, they could very well make that life quite miserable and that is just the way it would be. so when the poly thing happened, it broke my heart and shattered dreams, but it did not break us because "us" is defined by a relationship between a person with rights, and person without them.

and unfortunately i think that many new, starry-eyed and vulnerable submissive-types enter the D/s lifestyle and make commitments they truly don't understand, which may go against their very nature even, because they just cannot imagine that their Master may possibly take those vows, that commitment, literally.

I think you and I are on the same page here, actually. We're just reading it two different ways. Thanks for explaining your perspective so eloquently.