A Question About "Period Pieces" and propriety

[Cagivagurl]

Not really

You of course are entitled to your opinion...

Cagivagurl

 

[Cagivagurl]

No, you're wrong.

You wrote that it's ALWAYS been unacceptable.

That's historically false. It's irrelevant what you and your friends think or feel now. Facts are facts. From about the 18th century to the 1960s "Negro" was generally not considered an offensive term.

In 1963, in his "I have a dream" speech, Martin Luther King used the term "Negro."

In his 1963 nonfiction work "The Fire Next Time," James Baldwin also used the term "Negro."

The use of the term "Negro" would generally not have been considered offensive at that time to describe black people. That changed during the 1960s. Now, you are correct, but that wasn't true in the past.

Which doesn't make it any less offensive to the people who read it today....
Slavery was accepted... Not today....
Burning witches at the stake was acceptable....

Thankfully times have changed and hopefully people understand why terms such as this are considered offensive.

Cagivagurl

 

[SimonDoom]

Sprry to disagree....
My statement was not rabid...
I merely expressed, my opinion. Just like every other person within the thread.

My opinion, is as valid as yours....
The fact we do not agree, is of no consequence.... Just two people with divergent positions...

Cagivagurl

It's not a matter of opinion. When you say "The word 'negro' has always been unacceptable" you are making a factual, empirical statement, like "The United States bombed the Japanese fleet at Pearl Harbor." It's provably false, unlike an opinion. If you find "negro" offensive, that's your opinion, and it's valid. Most people today would not use the term in polite conversation. Making a statement about the past is not a matter of opinion, and not all statements about the past are of equal value just because we have feelings about them.

As they say, you are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts. Some facts are just wrong.

 

[KeithD]

Sprry to disagree....
My statement was not rabid...
I merely expressed, my opinion. Just like every other person within the thread.

My opinion, is as valid as yours....
The fact we do not agree, is of no consequence.... Just two people with divergent positions...

Cagivagurl

Of course your postings were rabid. Glad to see you're cooling down. You're obviously wrong about no black ever tolerating the use of "negro," since the word was used in titles of black organizations at one time.

 

[KeithD]

I am not indifferent to use of now-objectionable words in period pieces. I realize when I'm writing that they are a concern. I either use them sparingly or try to write around having to either use them or use a substitute word/phrase that would be out of period. It's a normal chore a writer has to face and deal with.

 

[CarmineBlancheJr]

Thanks for all the input...

@TheLobster - I do not feel the thread was ridiculous as it answered the question. I am not so much interested in writing to not offend, but not to push away readership. You can not deny that we live in a time when people are extra-sensitive and easy to offend for the silliest things. I wanted the opinion of other writers on how they handle this. Please remember, if you read my bio, I have about twenty years of experience writing technical documentation for large commercial electronics companies. There is no place in that for me to worry about offending someone unless they have a particular dislike of something being turned on or off or references to male or female connectors (sorry... I do not think I ever saw an non-binary or trans connector).

Another reason the thread is valid is that it is an honest request for information. You know the old saying: "The only dumb question is the one you never ask." That's how I see it.

The last thing I want to do is get black-balled before I really take off, and so far it seems like my readers like my work.

 

[CarmineBlancheJr]

This might be a good occasion, though, to use a disclaimer, such as "For the sake of historical accuracy, this story features words that some may find racially offensive."

Good point... Had not thought about that. It's sort of like what Disney is doing to some of its older work that is still available and has racial references. Like "Blackface".

 

[SimonDoom]

Thanks for all the input...

@TheLobster - I do not feel the thread was ridiculous as it answered the question. I am not so much interested in writing to not offend, but not to push away readership. You can not deny that we live in a time when people are extra-sensitive and easy to offend for the silliest things. I wanted the opinion of other writers on how they handle this. Please remember, if you read my bio, I have about twenty years of experience writing technical documentation for large commercial electronics companies. There is no place in that for me to worry about offending someone unless they have a particular dislike of something being turned on or off or references to male or female connectors (sorry... I do not think I ever saw an non-binary or trans connector).

Another reason the thread is valid is that it is an honest request for information. You know the old saying: "The only dumb question is the one you never ask." That's how I see it.

The last thing I want to do is get black-balled before I really take off, and so far it seems like my readers like my work.

It's a perfectly reasonable question to ask. I would caution you, though, as I would caution (and have cautioned) others who've asked similar questions in the past, not to attach excess weight to negative reactions. There's a natural human tendency to notice the one negative bit of feedback and ignore the 9 positive ones. And that translates, I think, into an excessive fear in this forum about the possibility that our story might offend somebody. Yeah, it might, be does it really matter?

You're not going to get black-balled, except maybe by a few angry readers here and there.

It's not likely that you'll face any significant, long-term negative consequences.

I believe artists of all kinds, including authors of erotica, should strive to be bold, confident, positive, and willing to take risks. That means risking offending people.

Write what you want, write it the best you can according to your values, and don't worry too much about what others think.

 

[CarmineBlancheJr]

It's a perfectly reasonable question to ask. I would caution you, though, as I would caution (and have cautioned) others who've asked similar questions in the past, not to attach excess weight to negative reactions. There's a natural human tendency to notice the one negative bit of feedback and ignore the 9 positive ones. And that translates, I think, into an excessive fear in this forum about the possibility that our story might offend somebody. Yeah, it might, be does it really matter?

You're not going to get black-balled, except maybe by a few angry readers here and there.

It's not likely that you'll face any significant, long-term negative consequences.

I believe artists of all kinds, including authors of erotica, should strive to be bold, confident, positive, and willing to take risks. That means risking offending people.

Write what you want, write it the best you can according to your values, and don't worry too much about what others think.

Thanks for this.

Like I said, I have been writing for years, mostly tech work. I experimented with the other and then decided to try it out here. I am overwhelmed with how people are liking my work. While I have had a few complaints, they are not what drives me. It's the people asking for more. It's like a drug.

I posted this because I know that we live in an age where you cannot say certain things without offending SOMEONE who is too thin-skinned to deal with it and move on, so I wanted to get the feels from others on how they deal with that.

Reading through this, though... I did not mean to start a brush fire. HAHA...

 

[SimonDoom]

Thanks for this.

Like I said, I have been writing for years, mostly tech work. I experimented with the other and then decided to try it out here. I am overwhelmed with how people are liking my work. While I have had a few complaints, they are not what drives me. It's the people asking for more. It's like a drug.

I posted this because I know that we live in an age where you cannot say certain things without offending SOMEONE who is too thin-skinned to deal with it and move on, so I wanted to get the feels from others on how they deal with that.

Reading through this, though... I did not mean to start a brush fire. HAHA...

Don't worry about brush fires here. The only way to prevent them is never to say anything. That's boring.

I published my first erotic story in 2016 and before that had 30 years behind me of professional and academic writing but no experience with fiction, so I know exactly how you feel. I have just this advice, if you are going to pay attention to reader feedback: write to please the readers who like your stuff, rather than to avoid offending those who don't. It's much more fun and rewarding that way.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Thanks for all the input...

@TheLobster - I do not feel the thread was ridiculous as it answered the question. I am not so much interested in writing to not offend, but not to push away readership.

I'm in your corner on this. I am not afraid to use whatever word is appropriate to the story. But I don't want to seen needlessly insulting or transgressive to readers either.

And context counts. Queen of the Roller Derby takes place primarily in the late 1950s. I wrote a scene in which the narrator, a young lesbian, is sitting in the waiting room at the train station in Cleveland:

As I sat in the waiting area, a group of young colored men came in. They looked like they were all around my age or just a few years older, but they all wore very trim dark suits. They seemed to be in an odd mood, laughing and smiling, but at the same time, shifting restlessly from one foot to another, as if they were more nervous than I was.

I was curious, so I eavesdropped on their conversation. They kept their voices low, but I kept hearing one word. Mississippi.

One of the men noticed me. He stepped in my direction and said, "You look hungry, Ma'am. Would you like something to eat?"

He reached into a bag that hung from his shoulder and handed me a baloney sandwich, wrapped in wax paper.

"Thank you," I said, "I heard you talking about Mississippi. Is that where you're going?"

"Yes, Ma'am." He was probably older than me, but he kept calling me Ma'am.

"What's in Mississippi?"

"It's more about what's not in Mississippi."

"What's that?"

"Freedom."

It should be obvious that the term "colored" is not used to offend, and the scene is important because it is the first step of the narrator's understanding that there could be a better future for people like herself.

I asked my husband, who is Black, if he thought the use of "colored men" was okay. He said "What the fuck else would she call them?"

BTW, his family use "negro" among themselves frequently, but generally in an ironic way.

 

[StillStunned]

This might be a good occasion, though, to use a disclaimer, such as "For the sake of historical accuracy, this story features words that some may find racially offensive."

Perhaps, instead of "historical accuracy", it might be better to say something like "to place the story in its time". There are people who get hung up on "accuracy".

 

[SimonDoom]

Perhaps, instead of "historical accuracy", it might be better to say something like "to place the story in its time". There are people who get hung up on "accuracy".

I don't think I follow that. What's the hangup?

The term "historical accuracy" makes it clear, I think, that "accuracy" refers to how people actually communicated then rather than a judgment about whether the terms used are "accurate" in some other sense.

 

[StillStunned]

I don't think I follow that. What's the hangup?

The term "historical accuracy" makes it clear, I think, that "accuracy" refers to how people actually communicated then rather than a judgment about whether the terms used are "accurate" in some other sense.

I meant that some people will say, "But other elements of the story aren't historically accurate, so why use that language?"

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I'm in your corner on this. I am not afraid to use whatever word is appropriate to the story. But I don't want to seen needlessly insulting or transgressive to readers either.

And context counts. Queen of the Roller Derby takes place primarily in the late 1950s. I wrote a scene in which the narrator, a young lesbian, is sitting in the waiting room at the train station in Cleveland:



It should be obvious that the term "colored" is not used to offend, and the scene is important because it is the first step of the narrator's understanding that there could be a better future for people like herself.

I asked my husband, who is Black, if he thought the use of "colored men" was okay. He said "What the fuck else would she call them?"

BTW, his family use "negro" among themselves frequently, but generally in an ironic way.

Seems like people like to get offended on behalf of other people without asking the actual people who might be offended.

Had a college professor who, along with his brother, integrated his high school in the 60s.
He went on a tangent one day (he'd go on the most wonderful and fascinating tangents) about how he'd been disappointed when "colored" got replaced by "black". He felt colored was a more descriptive term, but thought "person of color" was too clunky.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

It's also probably worth noting that if we are talking about a character from the 40s or 50s then them using the term Negro isn't some inherent proof of racism. It was simply the term in common usage at the time. No different than someone now referring to someone as black.
If you read literature or historical accounts of the era it's not uncommon to find white characters using the term then going on to describe the person in glowing terms.
"You know Tyler, that young Negro carpenter?" Sophie asked, " he rebuilt our garage after the tornado came through and just did an amazing job. He must he the best carpenter in the county."

 

[ChloeTzang]

False for you Mr Doom,
Not so for people of colour...
Remember, you speak only for yourself.
It's simple really. Ask a black person whether they'd mind being referred to as a negro....
My friends would probably clock you if you did.

Cagivagurl

That's now, this was then. You have to look at it in the context of the period. Nothing worse than writing a period story and using modern terminology. That rather throws one out of the story. When you're writing something like this it's a balance between historical accuracy and at times offending modern sensibilities - and language changes.

My personal take is, historical accuracy first and foremost. Anyone who's offended by historical accuracy probably shouldn't be reading it.

I'd liken it to the use of "orientals" which, if you read stuff from the 30's and 40's, was quite common, as was "Asiatics". Fu Manchu springs to mind. Not common now, and offensive to some thin-skinned persons of Asian origin, but again, historicall accurate if you're writing in that period, as was the slang use of Nips and Chinks. Doesn;t offend me at all, it was what it was, but I'm not thin-skinned. LOL

 

[Wifetheif]

This is one of those issues that bedevils authors and publishers. There is nothing inherently offensive about "Negro." I'm older and I remember the transition fro Negro to African-American occurring. "Boy" is more problematical. As a kid and a young man I was taught to never call a black man "boy" unless I was looking for a fist fight. "Boy" was something my grandfather or great grandfather might have used by the late sixties early seventies it anathema for everyone else.

 

[Voboy]

Nothing worse than writing a period story and using modern terminology. That rather throws one out of the story.

I've done this in dialogue, and it was well-received. But then, I was writing low-medieval stories, and included a slug at the top that explained I wasn't making any attempt to be period-correct in my dialogue. I avoided anachronisms (natch), but the idioms, insults, ribaldry, and general flow were pretty modern.

On the face of it I agree with you, but my logic went like this: the actual characters would have been speaking Anglo-Saxon, Norman French, or sometimes Latin. My theory was that in interpersonal communication, the "sense" of the dialogue used back then would have been much the same as ours today: a fart joke told in 2025 was probably told in much the same way in 1025, grammar and syntax aside. So, since I was changing all that grammar and syntax from Anglo-Saxon to modern English, it made sense to update the flow of the dialogue.

I've done a few stories that way, including one set in ancient Rome. I loved writing them and the readers love reading them. I'd do it again. I wouldn't if I was setting a story around 1950, or probably 1850 either.

 

[djrip]

I've done this in dialogue, and it was well-received. But then, I was writing low-medieval stories, and included a slug at the top that explained I wasn't making any attempt to be period-correct in my dialogue. I avoided anachronisms (natch), but the idioms, insults, ribaldry, and general flow were pretty modern.

On the face of it I agree with you, but my logic went like this: the actual characters would have been speaking Anglo-Saxon, Norman French, or sometimes Latin. My theory was that in interpersonal communication, the "sense" of the dialogue used back then would have been much the same as ours today: a fart joke told in 2025 was probably told in much the same way in 1025, grammar and syntax aside. So, since I was changing all that grammar and syntax from Anglo-Saxon to modern English, it made sense to update the flow of the dialogue.

I've done a few stories that way, including one set in ancient Rome. I loved writing them and the readers love reading them. I'd do it again. I wouldn't if I was setting a story around 1950, or probably 1850 either.

Translation into modern language, vs anachronistic usage of language... It's funny that we have more flexibility to be modern when writing speakers of Middle English or Latin than speakers of English 50 years ago, but it seems to be the case!

 

[ChloeTzang]

I've done this in dialogue, and it was well-received. But then, I was writing low-medieval stories, and included a slug at the top that explained I wasn't making any attempt to be period-correct in my dialogue. I avoided anachronisms (natch), but the idioms, insults, ribaldry, and general flow were pretty modern.

On the face of it I agree with you, but my logic went like this: the actual characters would have been speaking Anglo-Saxon, Norman French, or sometimes Latin. My theory was that in interpersonal communication, the "sense" of the dialogue used back then would have been much the same as ours today: a fart joke told in 2025 was probably told in much the same way in 1025, grammar and syntax aside. So, since I was changing all that grammar and syntax from Anglo-Saxon to modern English, it made sense to update the flow of the dialogue.

I've done a few stories that way, including one set in ancient Rome. I loved writing them and the readers love reading them. I'd do it again. I wouldn't if I was setting a story around 1950, or probably 1850 either.

I've done the same thing, but for that one story I set in the Regency Period, I tried to do a Georgette Heyer and use some period phrasing and wording, enoygh to set the tone without overwhelming the story. It's a balance that some period authors do really well, conveying the tone of the period without any any way throwing you out of teh story. Heyer did that superbly with her Regency stories, and so did George McDonald Fraser in Flashman. Mary Renault to, with her Alexander trilogy.I just read some Roman Empire novels where the author did the same thing. I tried to do it myself with Huginn's Yule, going with the rhythm and mind set of old Anglo Saxon. Often, it's a very alien mind set to the present, and it's hard to get into but still keep the story flowing. It's great when you get it right,

 

[StillStunned]

I've done the same thing, but for that one story I set in the Regency Period, I tried to do a Georgette Heyer and use some period phrasing and wording, enoygh to set the tone without overwhelming the story. It's a balance that some period authors do really well, conveying the tone of the period without any any way throwing you out of teh story. Heyer did that superbly with her Regency stories, and so did George McDonald Fraser in Flashman. Mary Renault to, with her Alexander trilogy.I just read some Roman Empire novels where the author did the same thing. I tried to do it myself with Huginn's Yule, going with the rhythm and mind set of old Anglo Saxon. Often, it's a very alien mind set to the present, and it's hard to get into but still keep the story flowing. It's great when you get it right,

Our reading lists seem to contain a lot of overlap.

Which of your stories was it?

 

[Voboy]

I've done the same thing, but for that one story I set in the Regency Period, I tried to do a Georgette Heyer and use some period phrasing and wording, enoygh to set the tone without overwhelming the story. It's a balance that some period authors do really well, conveying the tone of the period without any any way throwing you out of teh story. Heyer did that superbly with her Regency stories, and so did George McDonald Fraser in Flashman. Mary Renault to, with her Alexander trilogy.I just read some Roman Empire novels where the author did the same thing. I tried to do it myself with Huginn's Yule, going with the rhythm and mind set of old Anglo Saxon. Often, it's a very alien mind set to the present, and it's hard to get into but still keep the story flowing. It's great when you get it right,

I did a '30s story, set in Singapore, that's awaiting publication. I didn't make a conscious effort to update the dialogue, but I wasn't trying to sound like Graham Greene either. There are definitely differences in the ways characters of different social classes speak to each other (which is period-correct), and the main characters use different vocab when there are parents/chaperones present than when they're alone.

It was fun, writing that way. I don't worry about offending anyone in the way the OP does, even though there are a few reasonably questionable references in there (the characters are all British colonials, so their attitudes toward the non-Brits are not always what we might call "enlightened"). But there's certainly nothing that's offensive for the sake of being offensive.

 

[Cagivagurl]

It's not a matter of opinion. When you say "The word 'negro' has always been unacceptable" you are making a factual, empirical statement, like "The United States bombed the Japanese fleet at Pearl Harbor." It's provably false, unlike an opinion. If you find "negro" offensive, that's your opinion, and it's valid. Most people today would not use the term in polite conversation. Making a statement about the past is not a matter of opinion, and not all statements about the past are of equal value just because we have feelings about them.

As they say, you are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts. Some facts are just wrong.

Mr Doom....
I never quoted what I said was factual....
I said it was my opinion....
The only person in this conversation stating supposed facts is you....
My statement said.... In my opinion....

Cagivagurl

 

[Cagivagurl]

That's now, this was then. You have to look at it in the context of the period. Nothing worse than writing a period story and using modern terminology. That rather throws one out of the story. When you're writing something like this it's a balance between historical accuracy and at times offending modern sensibilities - and language changes.

My personal take is, historical accuracy first and foremost. Anyone who's offended by historical accuracy probably shouldn't be reading it.

I'd liken it to the use of "orientals" which, if you read stuff from the 30's and 40's, was quite common, as was "Asiatics". Fu Manchu springs to mind. Not common now, and offensive to some thin-skinned persons of Asian origin, but again, historicall accurate if you're writing in that period, as was the slang use of Nips and Chinks. Doesn;t offend me at all, it was what it was, but I'm not thin-skinned. LOL

Sorry Chloe...
I personally disagree....
History is history for a reason. What happened in the past happened and we cannot change that...
What we can do is adjust the language so people of today reading such works wouldn't be offended.... Lets not forget. The reader is not living in the 19th century
The story might be set in a time gone by when such language was used and considered acceptable...

Thankfully today we've somewhat moved on, and such language is considered offensive.... In my opinion, we can still tell the story accurately without having to use that sort of language... We are a far more sophisticated society these days. Or at least I hope we are.

Cagivagurl