A Question About "Period Pieces" and propriety

[Cagivagurl]

But it won't be historically accurate if it doesn't use the language of the period - which is all people here are saying. Such language can be used in moderation, sensitively, but to censor it? That's a slippery slope.

I personally don't see choosing language that wouldn't offend somebody as censorship....
What does the tale lose by using socially acceptable language???
There's any number of names we used to call children with disabilities when I was a kid. Now, older, wiser. I know those words hurt. So I don't use them...
Seems pretty simple to me...
That is my opinion only...

Cagivagurl

 

[SimonDoom]

I personally don't see choosing language that wouldn't offend somebody as censorship....
What does the tale lose by using socially acceptable language???
There's any number of names we used to call children with disabilities when I was a kid. Now, older, wiser. I know those words hurt. So I don't use them...
Seems pretty simple to me...
That is my opinion only...

Cagivagurl

To me, this is like saying since murder is bad and hurtful and triggering let's not write stories about murder. Let's have characters hit each other on the bottom with paddles and then make up and eat ice cream together. It seems just that infantile to me. Art Should deal with the full range of human experience, including very offensive experience, and artists should feel no obligation to sugarcoat it . We should read as adults, not as children who must be shielded from offensiveness. As an author I am not willing to take seriously readers who give words this absurd, talismanic power. They're just words. Grow up.

 

[Voboy]

I personally don't see choosing language that wouldn't offend somebody as censorship....
What does the tale lose by using socially acceptable language???

Something else to ponder: the tale can, in many cases, actually gain by using unacceptable language. Using these terms, especially by putting them into the mouths of specific characters through dialogue or narration, can be a powerful way to show the attitudes and passions of those characters. Want to show that a specific character is an asshole? When there's a choice of words (between more-offensive or less-offensive), let that character choose the more-offensive term. When he uses it, let the other characters exchange nervous glances.

So, using these words can be a "show, don't tell" moment. That's not possible if a writer is too consumed by the possibility of offending readers.

There's any number of names we used to call children with disabilities when I was a kid. Now, older, wiser. I know those words hurt. So I don't use them...

I can't agree more, especially when using the R-word... but using it can be an indicator of what your setting is like. The R-word is common where I live, but it was already considered vile where I grew up. I cringe every time I hear it here. It's fine to use that word (sparingly, sure) to show a character's awareness that they're among people they're not necessarily comfortable with; again, it can be a "show, don't tell" moment.

It's not about whether you or I would choose to use these words in our prose. It's about generalizations such as "nobody should ever use these terms" or "why would anyone ever use these phrases?" Those generalizations aren't useful. There is a time and place for everything, and well-chosen words can have an outsize impact if deployed properly.

I'm not really trying to convince you; I'm just making a point, and trying to add to the OP's understanding.

 

[KeithD]

Careful for the use ofnthe word fingered....
It means different things to different people...
Me, I'm always happy to be fingered....
Because I see things differently to you and others here on this site. That doesn't make me stupid my friend...
What it makes me is different...
You don't like my point of view. That's fine. I didn't ask you to...
I am comfortable with my position.
If you can't accept that somebody has a different view than your own... So be it... Shines a light on you as a person...
We don't have to agree... But we don't have to fight either....
My opinion, is as valid as yours...
So sorry it offends you so.

Cagivagurl

And yet you can't address the issue actually addressed to you by multiple posters.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

my thing is, if you're not willing to include the lack of razors or oral hygiene, as well as any period appropriate grossness or weirdness, don't write out slurs from that time period. gloss over them like you would the lack of teeth

Language is at the heart of a story. Characters talk to each other.
The era at issue here there was no lack of oral hygiene or razors. Even if that wasn't the case it isn't relevant to a story.

 

[CarmineBlancheJr]

It's the same for a lot of us. As a proud member of the gay community. We use words that are considered offensive. We made a conscious decision to own them. Make them ours. We use them jokingly. We use them to poke fun at the people who use them offensively.

I'm sure that's true of every ethnicity on the planet. As well as religious groups.

Cagivagurl

I had to laugh at this... I used to have a drinking buddy, Max. He's passed on now, with a massive heart attack while playing tennis; his boyfriend said that the doctors told him that Max was dead before he even hit the ground, no chance for resuscitation. For some reason, he was hesitant to tell me he was gay, but afterward, he told me, "You have a pretty vanilla group of friends, Carm... I will be your group's 'Token Faggot'."

I never cared for the word and he could see I was shocked... He said something like, "Hey... it's me; I own it and am proud of it, and it's just a word. What matters is how you use it."

I miss that asshole. He caused a guy at the bar we used to frequent to quit because he found out the server was a vehement homophobe and would constantly flirt with him.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I had to laugh at this... I used to have a drinking buddy, Max. He's passed on now, with a massive heart attack while playing tennis; his boyfriend said that the doctors told him that Max was dead before he even hit the ground, no chance for resuscitation. For some reason, he was hesitant to tell me he was gay, but afterward, he told me, "You have a pretty vanilla group of friends, Carm... I will be your group's 'Token Faggot'."

I never cared for the word and he could see I was shocked... He said something like, "Hey... it's me; I own it and am proud of it, and it's just a word. What matters is how you use it."

I miss that asshole. He caused a guy at the bar we used to frequent to quit because he found out the server was a vehement homophobe and would constantly flirt with him.

I have a friend who is definitely a kindred spirit.
He finds it hilarious to refer to himself as my favorite faggot.

"Kellie, speaking as your favorite faggot, we really need to have a drink after work on Thursday."

 

[CarmineBlancheJr]

I have a friend who is definitely a kindred spirit.
He finds it hilarious to refer to himself as my favorite faggot.

"Kellie, speaking as your favorite faggot, we really need to have a drink after work on Thursday."

Oddly enough, considering what I do here, I was raised Orthodox Jewish. I am still Jewish; I just consider myself more of a non-practicing Jew. Jews are, in a manner, much more relaxed about things like sexuality. We have more important things to worry about, like the next Hitler (I think we have one in the bullpen now warming up... but that's a topic for the political thread.) But if my father knew that I write as I write and hang around with "homosexuals, lesbians, and other degenerates." (His words), I would be disowned. My Mom knows... does not care for it, but understands that it's my life. She is not a dumb woman... but she asked me when she found out that Max was gay, whom she had known for some time, "You can't catch it, can you?"

"Yeah Mom... it's a pandemic; the whole nation is on lockdown because of a 'Gay Outbreak.' Before you know it, we will all be river-dancing and drinking apple-tinis."

 

[ElectricBlue]

I never cared for the word and he could see I was shocked... He said something like, "Hey... it's me; I own it and am proud of it, and it's just a word. What matters is how you use it."

I miss that asshole. He caused a guy at the bar we used to frequent to quit because he found out the server was a vehement homophobe and would constantly flirt with him.

This. Let the occupants of a community decide how they refer to themselves within their community, not some righteous outsider.

Your comment echoes the one made by @MelissaBaby up above, someone who knows first hand what's acceptable, what's not, being married to a man with a darker skin colour than her own.

Looking in from the outside I've just about given up on figuring out what's acceptable these days. Over the decades I've read negro, black American, African-American, black, man of color (and now person of color, which is an added level of political correctness).

Here in Australia, the shift in recent years in the media has been towards, "name name, proud tribal-name man/woman" which solves the matter completely, because the person is identified by their name first and foremost, with their aboriginal heritage shown secondly by their tribal name. And, if a person is referring to their fellow tribe, they might use the word mob self-referentially, but a non-aboriginal wouldn't. Unless they've been allowed into it, by being called brother or sister in conversation; but even then, only by following their lead.

That's been aligned with the idea of "living on country", where the landscape is also given a living identity.

It's been a nice shift, it's been gentle and subtle, not shouting. I couldn't say when I first noticed the trend in the press - three, five years, maybe ten. Don't know.

 

[ElectricBlue]

She is not a dumb woman... but she asked me when she found out that Max was gay, whom she had known for some time, "You can't catch it, can you?"

"Yeah Mom... it's a pandemic; the whole nation is on lockdown because of a 'Gay Outbreak.' Before you know it, we will all be river-dancing and drinking apple-tinis."

Wow, I've not heard that question in a very long while.

Reminds me of the (very old) joke: My mother made me a homosexual. "If I give her the wool, will she make me one?"

 

[CarmineBlancheJr]

Here in Australia, the shift in recent years in the media has been towards, "name name, proud tribal-name man/woman" which solves the matter completely, because the person is identified by their name first and foremost, with their aboriginal heritage shown secondly by their tribal name. And, if a person is referring to their fellow tribe, they might use the word mob self-referentially, but a non-aboriginal wouldn't. Unless they've been allowed into it, by being called brother or sister in conversation; but even then, only by following their lead.

That's been aligned with the idea of "living on country", where the landscape is also given a living identity.

It's been a nice shift, it's been gentle and subtle, not shouting. I couldn't say when I first noticed the trend in the press - three, five years, maybe ten. Don't know.

Things are changing. I think people are finally, compared to forty years ago, realizing that there are more important things to be worried about.

Problem is, that it's not happening fast enough.

Religion is the biggest issue, as my Mother is a testament to. I am sure that her views of homosexuality is based on what she was taught through her family and I know that I can never teach her otherwise. She is still waiting for me to give her grandkids and I am sure she thinks that the more I hang out with anyone that identifies with any of the letters in the LGBTQ... community, the greater the chance I am going to bring it home on my shirt and spread it to the family. HAHA...

Anyway... I rambled there a little. Tired, been a long day.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

You of course are entitled to your opinion...

Cagivagurl

I think I would know.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

But it won't be historically accurate if it doesn't use the language of the period - which is all people here are saying. Such language can be used in moderation, sensitively, but to censor it? That's a slippery slope.

I can only imagine a new version of Huck Finn, where Jim introduces himself as ADOS Jim. Wut?

 

[M_K_Babalon]

I personally don't see choosing language that wouldn't offend somebody as censorship....

Then what is it? Because it sounds like self-censorship.

 

[Cagivagurl]

Then what is it? Because it sounds like self-censorship.

Self censorship....
I think they call that manners....

Cagivagurl