A question for the Dommes

[catalina_francisco]

Thank you Heather. It is interesting that you identify as a submissive but you have fantasies as the agressor in a rape scene type fantasy or foricing someone against their will. One would typically think that submissive fantasies of rape scenes are done with themselves being the one forced. Thank you for sharing your unique perspective.

Ah I dunno....I do remember raping a sweet young thing on the mat at my front door a few years back...lol, his sister who was one of my best freinds decided I needed a treat and so brought him around to see if anything was possible, and he was more than happy to come back that night as I was for him to do so, though he didn't expect to be taken in such a way. He was very happy though and after that was more than willing to be taken however and whenever I wanted. Mistake was renewing the experience about 10 years later which though fun was nowhere near the previous time we spent together, but you live and learn.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

When I first started this thread, It didn't even occur to me that I would have trouble getting responses from Domme only types. I am thankful for the responses that I have received and it lets me know that switch-types who can be mostly toppish do and can have rape fantasies, but I was hoping to direct the question at straight Dommes so that I could see realistically what % of Dommes as women had fantasies of being raped.

In part, I was reading this article about women and forced sexual fantasies, and this exert caught my attention into the language that was used...

------------
Forceful Sexual Fantasy Among Women

Force is a particularly common theme in sexual fantasies (Hariton, 1973; Hariton & Singer, 1974; Knafo & Jaffe, 1984; Marcus, 1981; Pelletier & Herold, 1988; Strassberg & Lockerd, 1998). In their study on women's sexual fantasies during intercourse, Hariton and Singer found submission fantasies to be very common, second in occurrence only to the theme of an "imaginary lover." In more recent studies of women's sexuality, more than half of the participants reported having force fantasies (Pelletier & Herold; Strassberg & Lockerd). In Knafo and Jaffe's study, the most common sexual fantasy entertained among women during intercourse was that of being overpowered.

An important difference exists between a desired forceful sexual fantasy and an undesired actual rape. Beyond the obvious difference that, in the former, no actual violation of body and will is experienced, the fantasist also has complete control, while a lack of control characterizes rape. Moreover, rape is fraught with the possibility of bodily harm or death of the victim. Research corroborates that women engage in these fantasies for the purpose of sexual arousal and pleasure, not out of desire for an actual rape or force experience (Bond & Mosher, 1986; Kanin, 1982). For example, Zurbriggen and Yost (2004) argued that there appears to be no relationship between submission fantasy and real-world behavior (e.g., desiring to be raped), given their findings that there was no connection between women's submission fantasies and various attitudinal measures assessing rape acceptance, negativity toward women, and belief in hostility between men and women.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_4_43/ai_n17094104

-------------------

The conclusion I took away after reading this part of the article was that this type of fantasy comes primarily through submissive leanings. That gave me pause to think about Dommes and whether or not that as women, if they too had sexual fantasies of being raped.

I think you're hitting an area without correlation. Vanilla women have this fantasy. Plenty of subs, I would think, have fantasies as the aggressor (that inversion thing I'm talking about.) Men have the fantasy of overpowering by the droves - I made a large chunk of my income the one year discussing on the phone with literally *hundreds* of gentlemen how hot it would be if they were at a party of mine, filled with "all my gay male friends" tied down, hooded, immobile, and open up for general fucking use in a sling. This has to be the 20,000 dollar question, no joke. I can have this conversation in my sleep.

Yes, most women probably have considered the question of ravishment or overpowering during sex. Most men probably have too, and no one's asking.

 

[Lady_In_Black]

I am wondering why you are mainly curious about dominant women's fantasies of being raped. May I ask why?

I am one though, so I'll answer your question, in hopes of getting on answer to mine. I don't have fantasies about being raped. Not...erotic ones. I think it's just a mild concern stamped on my head, from having watched to many talk shows when I was home sick. I have erotic fancies of really violent, rough sex with my boyfriend. We are in a vanilla relationship, and some times I want him to be rough, and for me to fight back, but never rape style. More like in the scenes in "Mr & Mrs. Smith", and the scene on the stairs in "A History of Violence".

I do have some really...exciting...fantasies about raping men. Oddly, never of doing that to my boyfriend. In these I always have a strap on, some times there is a male friend there using the "guy" as well, and in the end the "guy" always likes it.

 

[RJMasters]

I am wondering why you are mainly curious about dominant women's fantasies of being raped. May I ask why?

I am one though, so I'll answer your question, in hopes of getting on answer to mine. I don't have fantasies about being raped. Not...erotic ones. I think it's just a mild concern stamped on my head, from having watched to many talk shows when I was home sick. I have erotic fancies of really violent, rough sex with my boyfriend. We are in a vanilla relationship, and some times I want him to be rough, and for me to fight back, but never rape style. More like in the scenes in "Mr & Mrs. Smith", and the scene on the stairs in "A History of Violence".

I do have some really...exciting...fantasies about raping men. Oddly, never of doing that to my boyfriend. In these I always have a strap on, some times there is a male friend there using the "guy" as well, and in the end the "guy" always likes it.

My curiousity is in regards to studies done where women are asked if they have had rape fantasies....where they were the ones being raped. In many of the studies it has been reported that a large number of women have had these type of fantasies where they are overpowered and taken against their will. Again this is fantasy not reality and women who have these types of fantasies are still in control.

What makes me curious is that the studies are mainly focused upon the "gender" or in other words, women. As I think about this, and have listened to many share their own expereinces here over the years, it occurs to me that I have heard many time submissives admit and acknowledge having these type of fantasies, but I do not recall one instant where a women who identifys solely as a Domme has ever admitted to such. This peaked my interest in that rape is often about control and I was wondering if there was a correlation. Where as the studies are focusing on the gender aspect, my question is more focused upon whether the woman is dominant or submissive.

The responses so far have shown that those who switch certainly do have them both in being overpowered and overpowering. There have been a few who identify as submissives who have also acknowledge the same as not only being overpowered but the aggressor as well.

As a dominant male, I have never once had such a fantasy. I do not see this due to the fact that I am a man because there are countless men who relish the fantasy of a woman or even another man to to use them is such a way.

This is why my focus is on being dominant regardless of gender. I suppose it doesn't matter in that if Male doms who identify as male Doms only, they can weigh in too, but I asked it of Dommes due to the fact the studies were mostly about women sexuality.

To me I think the studies results might not reflect accurately what is being concluded, because the focus is on gender. For example, if 60% of women said yes they have rape type fanties where they are overpowered, that means 40% didn't. What I would like to know is how many of that 40% may have been those who it did not simply appeal to them or if there was a significant percentage of them that were straight sexually dominant women and due to the fact they were sexually dominant, fantasies where they are being overpowered sexually is not something they would like or even fantasize about. Because i didn't want to assume, it is possible that somem of that 60% who admitted to having such fantasies, might also be sexually dominant women.

Without knowing the sexual prefrence in regards to being dominant, submissive or both, I think the conclusions can be sterotypically misleading in regards to women as a whole. In order to satisfy my own curiosity, I asked the simple straight forward question to any women who identify themselves as being a straight Domme, if they have such fantasies or not.

I hope that answered your question and thank you for answering mine.

 

[JMohegan]

I think conclusions on this subject can be misleading, regardless of gender, because fantasy concepts of rape vary so widely.

That line acknowledging that the fantasist maintains complete control is key.

For example, in many fantasies that have been described to me, the one being "raped" is essentially creating a scenario in which the rapist is so overcome with lust that the rapist is, in essence, the one who loses control.

Technically this type of thing might result in another check mark in the yes column for the researcher's study on fantasy forced sex. But drawing conclusions about the fantasist's desires relating to control seems like more of a stretch to me. At the very least, I'd say the issues are complicated.

 

[RJMasters]

I think conclusions on this subject can be misleading, regardless of gender, because fantasy concepts of rape vary so widely.

That line acknowledging that the fantasist maintains complete control is key.

For example, in many fantasies that have been described to me, the one being "raped" is essentially creating a scenario in which the rapist is so overcome with lust that the rapist is, in essence, the one who loses control.

Technically this type of thing might result in another check mark in the yes column for the researcher's study on fantasy forced sex. But drawing conclusions about the fantasist's desires relating to control seems like more of a stretch to me. At the very least, I'd say the issues are complicated.

Perhaps you are right in that maybe the topic is complicated....but the question is relatively straight forward...and not complicated at all to answer. I simply asked the question....if you identify as a Domme....not a switch....just a straight Domme, do you have these types of fantasies.

I may have a hunch which maybe right or maybe wrong....but it is a relatively simple and straight forward question.

 

[ppaddleman]

Splitting hairs

I'm nitpicking about definitions I know but I've always been cynical about the whole idea of rape fantasies.

Being ravished is not the same as being raped.

I define the woman, with fantasies about being ravished, as the one with a good collection of ropes, shackles, gags, and other such restraints in the bedroom drawer, Or out, tied roudn the bedposts and ready. Or worn on her wrists and ankles, during the intimate dinner for two at her place.

I define the woman whith rape fantasies, as the one who goes walking , alone, in a specific area, and at a specific time that it's known that a serial rapist is on th prowl

 

[JMohegan]

Perhaps you are right in that maybe the topic is complicated....but the question is relatively straight forward...and not complicated at all to answer. I simply asked the question....if you identify as a Domme....not a switch....just a straight Domme, do you have these types of fantasies.

I may have a hunch which maybe right or maybe wrong....but it is a relatively simple and straight forward question.

RJ, after posting the excerpt from that Forceful Sexual Fantasy study, you wrote: "The conclusion I took away after reading this part of the article was that this type of fantasy comes primarily through submissive leanings. That gave me pause to think about Dommes and whether or not that as women, if they too had sexual fantasies of being raped."

In my opinion, and for the reasons I just mentioned, the conclusion referenced in that first sentence is a bit off the mark.

I don't have a problem with you asking the subsequent question, but I do think it might help you make sense of the responses if you think about why the conclusion that prompted the question in the first place might not necessarily be sound.

 

[RJMasters]

RJ, after posting the excerpt from that Forceful Sexual Fantasy study, you wrote: "The conclusion I took away after reading this part of the article was that this type of fantasy comes primarily through submissive leanings. That gave me pause to think about Dommes and whether or not that as women, if they too had sexual fantasies of being raped."

In my opinion, and for the reasons I just mentioned, the conclusion referenced in that first sentence is a bit off the mark.

I don't have a problem with you asking the subsequent question, but I do think it might help you make sense of the responses if you think about why the conclusion that prompted the question in the first place might not necessarily be sound.

Perhaps, but the language of the study used phrases such as women being overpowered....I am not getting hung up on the definition of rape, or if it just pretend or even the clear definition of it. The study says that a large part of women admit to having feelings about their sexuality which involves being overpowered.

In response to that finding and the numbers which they quoted, I simply want to know if dominant sexual women also have these types of fantasies.

Read into what you want, but its not really that compicated. A there is a group of women who do exist that identifys as solely dominants. B. I have a question for them which is, do they have sexual fantasies where they are overpowered sexually?

I am not going to get side tracked into a discussion regard definitions of whether this is really rape or not because I really don't care. I am content to accept that a certain amount of women stated that yes they have fantasies in which they are over powered sexually. I want to know if Dominant women are a part of that group or if they are not.

 

[JMohegan]

I'm nitpicking about definitions I know but I've always been cynical about the whole idea of rape fantasies.

Being ravished is not the same as being raped.

I define the woman, with fantasies about being ravished, as the one with a good collection of ropes, shackles, gags, and other such restraints in the bedroom drawer, Or out, tied roudn the bedposts and ready. Or worn on her wrists and ankles, during the intimate dinner for two at her place.

I define the woman whith rape fantasies, as the one who goes walking , alone, in a specific area, and at a specific time that it's known that a serial rapist is on th prowl

Identification with kink is not a requirement for ravishment fantasies.

In fact, the most common forced-sex "ravishment" fantasies seem to come from non-kinky women.

These are fantasies in which the guy is eminently desirable in many ways. But the woman's sexual power is even stronger. In fact, it is so overwhelming that this strong, confident, Banderas or Pitt look-alike risks reputation, freedom, etc., to take her. He is literally driven wild with lust. In most of these scenarios, the act itself is extremely pleasurable not just for her but also for him. Often, he falls in love with her by the end.

Who has been "overpowered" here?

It depends on how you look at it, no?

 

[JMohegan]

I am not going to get side tracked into a discussion regard definitions of whether this is really rape or not because I really don't care. I am content to accept that a certain amount of women stated that yes they have fantasies in which they are over powered sexually. I want to know if Dominant women are a part of that group or if they are not.

Fair enough.

As an aside, it just occurred to me ask - are there any Dominant women here, who never switch? Ebonyfire, perhaps? I can't recall.

 

[RJMasters]

Fair enough.

As an aside, it just occurred to me ask - are there any Dominant women here, who never switch? Ebonyfire, perhaps? I can't recall.

I wish she was around, but I haven't seen her in some time.

 

[Netzach]

Perhaps you are right in that maybe the topic is complicated....but the question is relatively straight forward...and not complicated at all to answer. I simply asked the question....if you identify as a Domme....not a switch....just a straight Domme, do you have these types of fantasies.

I may have a hunch which maybe right or maybe wrong....but it is a relatively simple and straight forward question.

Who's going to answer that question honestly in this environment? Rather, who here is going to pick through their entire history of sexual fantasy to nail down the one moment they thought about being overpowered, IF they ever thought about it? It's already assumed that you must switch or you must want to really truly, if you're a woman. I think the consideration of rape/overpowering - the question is going to come up, because it is a real concern that you must live with every day. I wish every man knew what it was like to chart his walk at night home based on what he was wearing and whether or not it made him more attack-worthy - just once. If you are female you are going to kink that possibility or that experience to make your existence a little less miserable - I think. If you're a man you're going to mentally flirt with it as well, in either direction, because it's a huge question - at least in this postindustrial western culture.

Why not ask the guys anyway, because you'll have a much larger sample of people who "never eeever switch?" Honestly, if I had X ray vision into the minds of THAT sampling I think I'd find some interesting things to tell you.

I think my encountering with this fantasy, is based on the same history I have bottoming with my Bull - which is "well it's out there to be thought of, why not think about it?" Rather than anything you can tie to "a submissive drive" or anything endemic in me that wants to be submissive in some undirected fashion to someone anyone, the one I have not yet met.

It's a factor of experimentation and possibility for me - and not one that takes up a lot of space. The only reason I threw out what I did is because I really am past the point of caring if the lit SM board thinks of me as less Domme than Eb or SD or whoever because I'm throwing myself into the entirety of my own sexuality. (Not implying that if you don't switch you aren't, I'm just doing it in this fashion)

(I'm at least equal opportunity in that assumption, I think anyone really could switch under the right circumstances, it's all a question of how much energy you put into finding/creating them, and if you don't want to, yay, whatever, great)

 

[Homburg]

Who's going to answer that question honestly in this environment?
*snip*
(I'm at least equal opportunity in that assumption, I think anyone really could switch under the right circumstances, it's all a question of how much energy you put into finding/creating them, and if you don't want to, yay, whatever, great)

I agree, and think this is core to the issue. I am also of the opinion that anyone who is not mentally/emotionally damaged could switch*, many just don't want to admit it. It is the same as bisexuality, and the Kinsey scale. And, again, it is unsurprising to me that women would be more honest about occassional switching in the same manner that women are more open about bisexuality. There is simply less mainstream social pressure against female bisexuality and switchiness.

Am I ever likely to bugger some dude? Nope, but I can at least admit that there have been times that I have felt attraction for a man. Am I ever likely to submit? Nope, but, damn, I've met people that I could certainly concieve of bending just a little bit for. Do these admissions show me to be bisexual or switchy? Nope, just honest.

I would be willing to bet that a couple of Mdoms on here would admit to switchiness in a more forgiving social environment. Yeah, I'm talking about you over there trying to avoid eye contact...


* - Case in point, I've seen my meek, lil submissive wife take over and get a little bit Toppy once or twice with various casual play partners. Give her permission to do whatever she wants and look out. And, yeah, she is endlessly embarrassed about it too. This just makes it hotter for me though =)

 

[DeservingBitch]

Not sure if this is relevant to the discussion, but...

I find it interesting that the whole 'rape fantasy' usually focuses on women fantazising about it (whether as the rapist or the being raped). I can't count the number of men (either self-identified submissive or not) who've basically asked me for the 'tie-me-down-and-do-me' experience. Maybe i'm wrong, but I've always read that desire as a variation on the rape fantasy theme. But it is usually not talked or thought about as a rape fantasy.

And on a side note, I'm always wary of 'studies' on women's rape fantasies. 9 out of 10 that i've read end up suggesting either a) that women somehow 'want' to be dominated and violated; b) that rape isn't really rape because women actually 'dream' about it, ie, want it (and therefore this whole non-consent thing is bullshit); or c) that those women who fantasize about rape are 'freaks' and that there's something wrong with their sexuality. So, more often than not, these studies make a particular reading of women's sexual fantasies to draw conclusions about non-fantasy rape that end up either blaming women for rape and/or their sexuality, or dismissing rape as a real violation and abuse of women's bodies.

 

[RJMasters]

It's a factor of experimentation and possibility for me - and not one that takes up a lot of space. The only reason I threw out what I did is because I really am past the point of caring if the lit SM board thinks of me as less Domme than Eb or SD or whoever because I'm throwing myself into the entirety of my own sexuality. (Not implying that if you don't switch you aren't, I'm just doing it in this fashion)

(I'm at least equal opportunity in that assumption, I think anyone really could switch under the right circumstances, it's all a question of how much energy you put into finding/creating them, and if you don't want to, yay, whatever, great)

I don't think I have ever said anything which has ever been disrespectful towards you Netz. I certainly have never meant to or meant to imply otherwise. Yeah Eb and SD have always held a high level of my respect, but you have never been any different. You are definately a strong dominant woman who does as she pleases and lives in the confidence of her own decisions.

After considering your comment as to whether the question is a fair one, I see your point.

 

[Netzach]

I don't think I have ever said anything which has ever been disrespectful towards you Netz. I certainly have never meant to or meant to imply otherwise. Yeah Eb and SD have always held a high level of my respect, but you have never been any different. You are definately a strong dominant woman who does as she pleases and lives in the confidence of her own decisions.

After considering your comment as to whether the question is a fair one, I see your point.

I'm not taking it as a personal slight, but I am wondering what the implications might be if I were to say "sure I think about this all the time." I have a good friend who's more on the bottom end of things and their fantasies actually have more to do with voyeurism than any manner of participation, which I find really interesting. A lot of my fantasies would be described as voyeuristic. (there's a big long gay porno loop in my head, and the party never stops to paraphrase David Byrne)

I actually am interested in the incidence of fantasies of being overpowered among self-Identified dominant men as well as women. I think there's a vast load of things that people think about that aren't necessarily compelling enough to do anything about - I actually *hope* that a lot of people are willing to think about things they aren't necessarily interested in doing. It's one of the things that separates the interesting from the less interesting among people, to me. I think likewise, it's pretty damn healthy if someone who's a submissive has at least entertained "what would it be like" to do all manner of things they aren't necessarily signing up for. I'm attracted to that.

 

[TheBlackDahlia]

I'm a domme with some switch tendencies, and yes I do have quite a few rape fantasies. As far as what I prefer (raping or being raped) I'll go for either. It just depends on my mood that day.

 

[Softouch911]

Because it's you, RJ, I decided to make a couple of phone calls. See, I know two men & one woman who used to run "fantasy" fulfillment businesses. Both have said (one man, one couple) that their primary business was fulfilling rape fantasies. Between them, they filled something over "sixty" dreams.

A little over a third of their customers were women. Of them, all said they could not recall a woman they would have called dominant. "But if she was," one said, "you can be damn sure she wasn't going to tell us about it."

Goes along with the conversation so far, I suppose.

Some of course were h igh-powered in their business lives; most also were what we would think of as "vanilla" folk.

I don't suggest any kind of statistical accuracy or relevance, but there y'are, for what it's worth.

ST

 

[catalina_francisco]

Not sure if this is relevant to the discussion, but...

I find it interesting that the whole 'rape fantasy' usually focuses on women fantazising about it (whether as the rapist or the being raped). I can't count the number of men (either self-identified submissive or not) who've basically asked me for the 'tie-me-down-and-do-me' experience. Maybe i'm wrong, but I've always read that desire as a variation on the rape fantasy theme. But it is usually not talked or thought about as a rape fantasy.

Nancy Friday did some interesting study into men's fantasies to counterbalance her work with women's fantasies which were published in 1980 in Men In Love and in which she said one of the major themes in male fantasy does include passivity, in particular rape and being taken against their will. One of the other major themes was sadomasochism.

Catalina

 

[DeservingBitch]

Nancy Friday did some interesting study into men's fantasies to counterbalance her work with women's fantasies which were published in 1980 in Men In Love and in which she said one of the major themes in male fantasy does include passivity, in particular rape and being taken against their will. One of the other major themes was sadomasochism.

Catalina

Really? I'll have to check it out. I'm familiar with Nancy Friday and some of her work, but somehow I haven't stumbled across this piece of her yet. Thanks for mentioning it.

If you ever find yourself looking for an interesting read, I do suggest John K. Noyes (1997) on "The Mastery of submission: Inventions of Masochism" that I've quoted some in the male sub thread. As Netzach pointed out, it is hard to see such writings as anything else than an exercise in futility (also known as intellectual masturbation), but I think you may appreciate it for what it is. I particularly enjoy the tensions in his writings, especially when he can't help but somehow pathologize the very thing that he's trying to de-pathologize.

 

[RJMasters]

Because it's you, RJ, I decided to make a couple of phone calls. See, I know two men & one woman who used to run "fantasy" fulfillment businesses. Both have said (one man, one couple) that their primary business was fulfilling rape fantasies. Between them, they filled something over "sixty" dreams.

A little over a third of their customers were women. Of them, all said they could not recall a woman they would have called dominant. "But if she was," one said, "you can be damn sure she wasn't going to tell us about it."

Goes along with the conversation so far, I suppose.

Some of course were h igh-powered in their business lives; most also were what we would think of as "vanilla" folk.

I don't suggest any kind of statistical accuracy or relevance, but there y'are, for what it's worth.

ST

Thank you for taking the time and the effort ST.

 

[macccer]

I do have some really...exciting...fantasies about raping men. Oddly, never of doing that to my boyfriend. In these I always have a strap on, some times there is a male friend there using the "guy" as well, and in the end the "guy" always likes it.

Now i'm having some fantasies about that too!

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

Really? I'll have to check it out. I'm familiar with Nancy Friday and some of her work, but somehow I haven't stumbled across this piece of her yet. Thanks for mentioning it.

awesome book...bought it right after I discovered *My Secret Garden*

[/hi-jack]

 

[macccer]

From the people that brought you...

'She wouldn't dress that way if she didn't WANT it...'


DeservingBitch :Not sure if this is relevant to the discussion, but...

I'm always wary of 'studies' on women's rape fantasies. 9 out of 10 that i've read end up suggesting either a) that women somehow 'want' to be dominated and violated; b) that rape isn't really rape because women actually 'dream' about it, ie, want it (and therefore this whole non-consent thing is bullshit); or c) that those women who fantasize about rape are 'freaks' and that there's something wrong with their sexuality.

All those conclusions are beyond disturbing.

i guess i feel that rape is less about sex and more about intimidation and power. It's a kind of murder, really. Murder of the soul. Nullifying the horror of rape by using as an example women's 'rape' fantasies... is like saying that a man that has a fetish for a woman in a Nazi German SS outfit really wants to be put in a concentration camp.

It's absurd.


Damn, i'm hijacking again! Sorry.