A question for the guys

[leeroy jenkins]

a true submissive? or a masochistic submissive?

How about this for a definition for a true submissive, a person that derives pleasure from giving some or all of their personal power or control to another??

 

[navarre]

OK so you are a sadist... and you know you arent supposed to hit girls (because your mom said so). How do you let go of that without going too far? Is it something you need to step by step learn...or do you just go at it?

Like the Nike commercial.....just do it.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Like the Nike commercial.....just do it.

lol thank you navarre.

 

[O'Mac]

I think someone got it right earlier on with the remark that men naturally play the role of "protector". It's sort of like a built-in personality fail-safe, I suppose. I know could only whip, slap, tickle, tease, bite, and smack a woman if she had consented to it.

I don't think men are "terrified" of hurting a woman, maybe we just tend to subconsciously put limits on the level of contact we have as a way of erroring on the side of caution. I know that I could easily put one of my subs in the hospital with a few choice punches or holds, but there is absolutely no initiative to do that.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

Why are so many men terrified of Dominating and hurting women who like that kinda stuff?

I can only answer for myself.

Because for many years I could see myself becoming the next Ted Bundy, Jeffery Dahmer, the next Larry Gene Bell or Ed Gein. Hell, I still can.

I'm a sadist, and in my fantasies, I don't give a rat's ass about consent, safety, or my victims pleasure. I want to feed off the pain, blood, and the terror of someone who knows they are going to die. At my hand.

I also know that if I ever indulge those fantasies I will go stark, raving, howling at the moon, mad, and spend the rest of my days in a prison, or worse, in a mental institution doped out of my mind and drooling down my chest. Being a predator at heart, I also have a very well developed sense of self-preservation.

The thought of unleashing that beast, even a little, scared me to death. To me it seemed to be the first step down a slope that would only "end badly."

*smiles and shrugs* I got better. Accepting that this IS who and what I am was the first step in dealing with the other issues. Finding willing partners, ACCEPTING partners... who wanted to have that sort of release helped beyond words. The pressure slowly came off, like a relief valve. As I let more of the steam off, I was able to relax more, which, paradoxically, allowed me to play harder and edgier than I had before.

The fantasies are still there, but the control is more sure, I am more comfortable in my skin. I don't have to be a hunter, my prey comes to me now. *evil grin*

 

[MechaBlade]

Why are so many men terrified of Dominating and hurting women who like that kinda stuff?

1. Because we were taught that hurting women is not okay, it's not even funny.
2. If we hurt the woman and she dislikes it, she could claim it was nonconsensual and put us in jail.
3. I've only met in real life one person who comes even close to being able to handle what I would like to dish out. I haven't even met many online.

OK so you are a sadist... and you know you arent supposed to hit girls (because your mom said so). How do you let go of that without going too far? Is it something you need to step by step learn...or do you just go at it?

Step by step

I can only answer for myself.

Because for many years I could see myself becoming the next Ted Bundy, Jeffery Dahmer, the next Larry Gene Bell or Ed Gein. Hell, I still can.

I'm a sadist, and in my fantasies, I don't give a rat's ass about consent, safety, or my victims pleasure. I want to feed off the pain, blood, and the terror of someone who knows they are going to die. At my hand.

I also know that if I ever indulge those fantasies I will go stark, raving, howling at the moon, mad, and spend the rest of my days in a prison, or worse, in a mental institution doped out of my mind and drooling down my chest. Being a predator at heart, I also have a very well developed sense of self-preservation.

The thought of unleashing that beast, even a little, scared me to death. To me it seemed to be the first step down a slope that would only "end badly."

*smiles and shrugs* I got better. Accepting that this IS who and what I am was the first step in dealing with the other issues. Finding willing partners, ACCEPTING partners... who wanted to have that sort of release helped beyond words. The pressure slowly came off, like a relief valve. As I let more of the steam off, I was able to relax more, which, paradoxically, allowed me to play harder and edgier than I had before.

The fantasies are still there, but the control is more sure, I am more comfortable in my skin. I don't have to be a hunter, my prey comes to me now. *evil grin*

Awesome, Evil Geoff.

 

[stageleft]

fear

its all a question of respect...
my g/f knows im very soft-hearted but she also recognises the great animal lust that burns within.
she enhanced this when she had some old dresses to throw out..she surprised me in the bedroom once when she said-"before i throw these out do you want to rip one of these dresss off me & ravage me to pieces?"
i was thrilled & almost ripped & tore her dress in half with animal like abandon then set about ravaging her wildly.
only works with full consent.

 

[Kajira Callista]

I can only answer for myself.

Because for many years I could see myself becoming the next Ted Bundy, Jeffery Dahmer, the next Larry Gene Bell or Ed Gein. Hell, I still can.

I'm a sadist, and in my fantasies, I don't give a rat's ass about consent, safety, or my victims pleasure. I want to feed off the pain, blood, and the terror of someone who knows they are going to die. At my hand.

I also know that if I ever indulge those fantasies I will go stark, raving, howling at the moon, mad, and spend the rest of my days in a prison, or worse, in a mental institution doped out of my mind and drooling down my chest. Being a predator at heart, I also have a very well developed sense of self-preservation.

The thought of unleashing that beast, even a little, scared me to death. To me it seemed to be the first step down a slope that would only "end badly."

*smiles and shrugs* I got better. Accepting that this IS who and what I am was the first step in dealing with the other issues. Finding willing partners, ACCEPTING partners... who wanted to have that sort of release helped beyond words. The pressure slowly came off, like a relief valve. As I let more of the steam off, I was able to relax more, which, paradoxically, allowed me to play harder and edgier than I had before.

The fantasies are still there, but the control is more sure, I am more comfortable in my skin. I don't have to be a hunter, my prey comes to me now. *evil grin*

Does your ted bundy ever get pissed at the amount of control you have over him?

 

[ObsidianRose]

I don't think men are "terrified" of hurting a woman, maybe we just tend to subconsciously put limits on the level of contact we have as a way of erroring on the side of caution. I know that I could easily put one of my subs in the hospital with a few choice punches or holds, but there is absolutely no initiative to do that.

You must have some well behaved submissives!!! Phew.

 

[O'Mac]

You must have some well behaved submissives!!! Phew.

Yes and no. One has a habit of becoming a brat every now and then. I usually end up punishing her for one thing or another. But again, it's not as severe as I could or woud like to do at times. Once someone says stop, I do just that. I know that if in the position that they are in, I wouldn't want it any other way.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

Does your ted bundy ever get pissed at the amount of control you have over him?

Let's just say that he's not nearly as pissed as he used to be. Some freedom is better than none, and he accepts that.

 

[RJMasters]

Man, there are so many ways one can talk about this.

I think I will slice the reasons into two main categories. There are external dangers, fears and factors, and there internal issues.

External dangers and fears – Many in the thread have already discussed many of these. In general things such as the Legal repercussions, and Societies influence. Some other more specific external factors might include the type of relationship and how that effects control. Such as in a LDR, there is certainly going to be huge differences than if the two were skin to skin. Previous bad relationships can also be a factor. Once bitten twice shy kinda of thing. Then there is understanding the woman’s limits. The woman’s experience verses her fantasies and how that impacts the reality of the relationship.

All of these external factors might have a bearing and could effect why a man might (I wouldn’t say terrified, more reluctant) be reluctant in instigate hurting a woman who expresses the desire for pain.

Internal issues

I think Geoff nailed many of the internal struggles that a sadist faces. I think some of the main issues revolve around their own fear and personal struggle. How deep does the rabbit hole go? For some the answer is clear, it goes to the end where blackjack fantasies are already there. So then a line is drawn there. A line which must not be crossed. The only thing, which prevents from crossing that line is the control and will of the one who made it, which is scary because he knows a part of him sees beyond that line and desires it. Is that desire there all the time? No, not for me it isn’t, but when I get sexually aroused, or extremely angry, things change.

As a kind of an analogy…some men will not get into a fight. In fact they will endure a lot to walk away from a fight. Its not because they are scared to get hurt, sometimes they are more scared that if they ever did get into a fight, they wouldn’t be able to control the rage and end up killing the other person. I think in a similar way a sadist will do a lot in his power to never let the beast out to feed, because the beast might not stop.

Another analogy…there is a thread AA started which asked the question are you a vampire or a lycan? In a not so silly way the nature of these two, points to the nature of two different kinds of sadist. This is my opinion of course and is how I see it, but maybe some can identify with what I am saying. I am without a doubt a lycan-type sadist. Meaning that I turn. A painslut is a full moon if you get what I am trying to say.

I think experience can go a long way in helping to gain confidence (which I will come back to in a moment). That requires one who can do that, which of course means her limits allow for exploration and that she sees within the man something that allows her to trust him.

When I mentioned confidence I did not mean confidence in one’s self and who one is, I meant more it is confidence in your own ability to control the beast when the adrenaline is pumping. Which leads me to your next question.

OK so you are a sadist... and you know you arent supposed to hit girls (because your mom said so). How do you let go of that without going too far? Is it something you need to step by step learn...or do you just go at it?

I think experience here dictates this. For those who have a lot of experience, I think they can safely say just go at it provided they know the woman and trust her that she is comfortable in who she is.

For those who do not have that much experience, I think step by step until that experience is gained. I am not talking about experience in just the knowing of what things one can do and how far they can take swinging a cane, using a knife etc…I am talking about the man having the experience to control the beast inside him so that he is confident that he will not lose control.

A submissive has but to fear that a Dom might non-consentually break one of their limits. A masochist has to fear that a sadist won’t lose control and end their life or play so recklessly that one could suffer immeasurable harm. I am not trying to make light of breaking limits here, so please don't think that. I realize that the breaking of limits can cause immeasureable harm in other ways. I'm talking about the level of play esculating to a point of no return.

Some things a masochist can do to help a still exploring sadist…would be to be openly communicate, especially after sessions. Don’t hand out blank checks about limits. This doesn’t help and could even discourage adventures into the unknown. You don’t have to set limits if you do not wish to, but give examples of what you have done. Give some light examples, medium examples and some extreme examples, this gives him something he can wrap his mind around. Also, allow for time. If you are with an experienced Sadist it might be different, but for one who is still exploring his own sadistic-ness, being over eager and pushing him for more and more pain because its ok with “you”, may in fact push him in the other direction as he may not be ready or believe he has enough control. He could also interpret this as a form of topping which might bring negative effects too. The last thing would be for you to learn what kind of sadist this man/woman is. Just like there are many different types of submissives, slaves Doms, Dommes, masochists…there are different types of sadists. Don’t assume that what excited one sadist about pain will excite another in the same way or for the same reasons. By not making assumptions, you allow yourself to join his journey into self discovery. In my way of thinking, that could be the best ride of all.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Thanks RJ

 

[ObsidianRose]

Hi, Kajira,

Quod me nutrit me destruit.

"What I eat destroys me?" Am I translating that correctly? Sorry to break topic but I just saw that. If I'm right...I'll be tickled pink because I don't know a lick of Latin...if that's even Latin.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Hi, Kajira,





"What I eat destroys me?" Am I translating that correctly? Sorry to break topic but I just saw that. If I'm right...I'll be tickled pink because I don't know a lick of Latin...if that's even Latin.

what nourishes me destroys me

 

[LibraStud]

If you really listen to a woman, she will tell you what she wants and what she likes. I then tell her what I heard. We go on from there. Simple and safe communication.

 

[little cletus]

Here is my problem. My wife likes rough sex and I sometimes have a hard time getting into it. I dont want to hurt her, or disrespect her, or go too far. But, the times that I do get into it, our ideas of rough sex don't exactly mesh. If I tell her to "suck my cock" sometimes she says no. Well, fuck that. If you want to be thrown around and dominated, you do what I say. Things like this drive me nuts. You can't give up control and maintain control at the same time.

 

[chris9]

Here is my problem. My wife likes rough sex and I sometimes have a hard time getting into it. I dont want to hurt her, or disrespect her, or go too far. But, the times that I do get into it, our ideas of rough sex don't exactly mesh. If I tell her to "suck my cock" sometimes she says no. Well, fuck that. If you want to be thrown around and dominated, you do what I say. Things like this drive me nuts. You can't give up control and maintain control at the same time.

Maybe that's her way of making you force her to do what you want?
I know I have two categories of fantasy, one where I'm the obedient slave that does whatever she's asked to do (some pretty extreme stuff mostly), the other where I'm forced to suffer through whatever.

If she doesn't have a safe-word, maybe you two could agree on one. Then you can force her to suck your cock or whatever until she says this word. If she does try to understand why she did.
Sometimes I'm not in the mood for any being forced or anything, just plain cuddly vanilla sex. My partner is not dominant, but plays at it at times. I feel that if I don't really want this at the time it's fair to stop him as that kind of play is mainly for my pleasure.

 

[Kajira Callista]

I just wanted to add something to this thread before it heads off to the second page. I have gotten over a dozen PMs answering my question. I asked each one why not in the thread and they said because they didnt think the thread would stay on track or it would get overly judged or they would be put down for their opinions on the subject. Kinda sad *sigh*

 

[leeroy jenkins]

I just wanted to add something to this thread before it heads off to the second page. I have gotten over a dozen PMs answering my question. I asked each one why not in the thread and they said because they didnt think the thread would stay on track or it would get overly judged or they would be put down for their opinions on the subject. Kinda sad *sigh*

Well I for one did in two places for you KC and it seems you liked both of them.

 

[ppaddleman]

doing damage

Even for the kind of sub who is a full on pain slut there is the risk or doing damage as opposed to causing pain.

This is why doms are all ears when some new idea of causing pain without actually doing damage is floated around.

Eg Stinging nettles tucked into your subs panties and held in place with a chastity belt. Painiful but does no damage.

Or a ginger spanking. Very popular that one.

 

[PatPowers]

I think the 'wiring' referred to earlier has a point. I'm into bondage, have been since my teens, and all of my early exposure to it was through porn. Back in the 80s and 90s almost all commercial sex videos that involved bondage also involved whipping and spanking and stuff. I got to watch a lot of it and I have to believe that if there were any interest on my part in SM, that would have cranked it up. This is within the context of me being a person who was VERY interested when Kim Cattrall gets hogtied and gagged in "Big Trouble in Little China" and who was EXTREMELY turned on by the brief, underlit scene where Nastassia Kinski got fucked while naked, spreadeagled and bound in Cat People.

But when Anna Malle is tied naked with her feet strung up over her head and wearing a ballgag, I'm EXTREMELY turned on while they go after her with a vibrator and massage her breasts, but as soon as they haul out the flogger it's "grumble/grumble where's-remote-control-with-the-fast-forward?"

Mutiply this by a hundred and you have my experience with most BDSM porn (things are better now, of course). And I have to believe that if I had ANY inclination toward SM, the many, many, many scenes of women being spanked, flogged and caned in "bondage" videos would have sparked it. 'Cause seeing those half-assed bondage scenes on mainstream movies and on TV sure sparked my interest in bondage (though it was hardly the first indication I had that I liked bondage).

So I buy the notion that people can be pretty strongly inclined to like and not like various sexual practices. That said, if I were to be married to or in a relationship with a woman who really liked being spanked and/or flogged, I'd spank/flog her as part of the normal give-and-take of a sexual relationship, and as she responded sexually to such, I'd probably get very turned on by it after a time. It would start out being something I'd do strictly to make her happy, sexually speaking, but after a time it would make me happy, too. But that's 'bout the only way I see it happening. 'Cause I didn't used to have much interest in redheads, but after I married one, things changed.

 

[Mr. Mann]

Why are so many men terrified of Dominating and hurting women who like that kinda stuff?

Good question.

I've been letting it stew for a few days, letting my subconscious work on it, trying to let thoughts and feelings percolate.

The issue you raise is one I've been working on, lately. I'm not sure how much closer I am to where I want to be, but I am gaining some insight with experience. I'll try to offer what I can from my own personal perspective with some consideration for generalities. I can't speak accurately for anyone else. I'm not 100% confident that I can speak accurately for myself.

I also reserve the right to change my mind, experience new feelings, be inarticlate, or just plain old wrong.

As I go about trying to unleash my "inner sado", at the specific request of my dear wife... I've run into difficulty. I know this would be different if in a different context than ann already existing intimate relationship. I also know it would be different if I was being asked to do these things by someone whom I knew already had experience doing them. I'd know they knew what they were getting into.

Initially, I was concerned about whether or not she really knew what she was asking for. I still do in a big way. If she says she wants rough sex and to be "raped" and that she enjoys pain... my mind is conjuring up some pretty violent images. It can be a dark place that I normally wouldn't want to go. However, I'd also enjoy a way to express those things.

I'm past worrying about why it turns me on to see a woman tied up and crying, helpless and naked before me. I know that it does. I know that it has for some time. My wife syas she wants that for her and is pleased to har that I'd be interested.

My response is still along the lines of, "Are you SURE you know what you are asking for? Are you SURE you understand what you are getting into?"

This isn't a little "slap and tickle". Real pain requires real force. The mindset I'm going to getin is "I'm going to make you hurt."

That's a place sitting right smack dab on the razor's edge of losing control.

It's also a place that I am not accustomed to going with someone I love and care for. I find it dificult to objectify my wife and not see her as the person I care for deeply.

Neither is it a place that I am accustomed to going with people I don't know and care for. I would not do these things unconsensually. I could only do them in the atmosphere of the extremely high level of trust that is required for someone to both consent and request such treatment.

Part of me is scared of losing control "in the moment" and going too far, past her limits, failing to recognize when she has reached them.

Part of me is scared of her reaction, of her seeing a side of me that she finds repulsive. This is all well and good when it is the "me" that she sees doing it. But what if she sees a different side of me? What if she sees the look in my eye and it all goes sideways for her?

She wants me to FORCE her. She wants me to HURT her.

But she doesn't want me to truly HARM her.

That's a fine line... and once crossed even by mistake or misunderstanding or miscommunication... you can't uncross it.

It is a thin razor's edge that I find myself approaching with caution and respect.

Even though part of me is drawn to it, another part of me says that it is best to stay away.

 

[RJMasters]

Well said.

 

[High-Tied]

a true submissive? or a masochistic submissive?

It seems that there is clear distinction between a submissive woman wishing to be dominated from a submissive woman yearning for pain from another, no?

For me, the definition of true needs to be examined, and definitely varies from person to person. That person could very well be masochistic, but not required to be. True, by my meaning, would include to effectively understand and communicate what they wish for and from a dominating partner.