A woman and a man and power?

[yeishia]

Wait- define "wimp" in terms of gender. I need it clarified.

I used no gender reference Ausus. I was speaking to the individual who is made to submit as opposed to one who is actively engaged in the process by choice.

The "utter submissive" in this case is -broken- as a person.

.

I am thinking you should re-read what I wrote without personal bias.

I made no reference to an "utter submissive"

I can only offer my opinion based on my own experiences in the real world.

Should I find the one I choose to submit too the choice is mine to make. I give myself over to his care for the time we spend together, never ever do I relinquish the essence of who I am.

I would never entrust myself to another Dominant who is broken. We live and learn, well most of us do. In the real world I am no longer in the lifestyle again a personal choice...mine alone to make.

I own my own home, run a thriving business, have beaten cancer not once but twice and am raising a young son alone. I consider myself to be a strong successful individual in my own right, no matter what my sexual proclivities are or are not.

Of course these are merely my opinions I have no wish to push them on others or for that matter debate them.

I accept and respect that you have yours and I have mine.

Our lives and experiences color our perceptions throughout our lifetimes they make us who we are and who we shall become.

I refuse to have a rigid outlook, I am learning about myself at every turn in my journey and am happy to do so.

It is my fervent hope that everyone can find their happiness in the manner in which truly gives them joy.

It doesn't matter if I understand or even approve now does it?

 

[Alana_]

I've tried since reading the first post yesterday, to formulate a reply, but I always felt I was too close to risking offending someone.

I have an understanding of why a couple would wish to explore the experience of Dominance and Submission, but I would have no interest in it myself.
The image I have involves no kindness, no tenderness, no affection. I'm not talking hearts and flowers btw. I just, by the use of words like 'Dominance and Submissive' can not see how it can be part of a loving equal relationship where emotional needs are met in a healthy manner.

And yes, I understand that the Sub is actually the one with the control, but I just don't understand how giving over yourself to someone else to be dominated, is you still having control.
I don't understand how trusting someone to that point, is a sign of the ultimate depth in a relationship. In fact I've been made feel at times that my own relationship, because it's not of a BDSM kind, is lacking because I just couldn't possibly trust my husband as deeply as a Sub trusts their Dom, because I've not ''given myself over entirely''.

I often wonder if a Sub/Dom couple were to live in my house and see the relationship I have with my husband, including our intimacies, what category would they put us under. I think there's a bit of a dominant and a submissive in us all, when hormones take hold and passions flair. It just doesn't mean BDSM/Dom/Sub come into play.

And I also know for me that if I were to begin a relationship with a man, and he were to reveal that he were of a Submissive nature be it in day to day living, or in intimacy, I'd have no interest in him what so ever. I want a strong man..and a gentle man...Gentle doesn't make him weak...But I do believe that FOR ME, it (weak) would be my perception of a Submissive male.
I would find it very hard to respect him, never mind be sexually attracted to him.

I read as much here as I can on the life style, and I apologize if I term that incorrectly. I find it fascinating, and I say this only from my own view point and with no malice, but on looking at the Submissive in a couple, it makes me terribly sad for them. I would also have a very sharp and intense feeling of aggression towards a Dom, be they male or female.

My apologies if this has gone off the actual question, but trying to directly answer Veroes first post is impossible for me. Too much comes out.

 

[Light Ice]

I made no reference to an "utter submissive"

When you mentioned a person submitting themselves entirely to another, and referenced it as a "beautiful thing", I took the opportunity to clarify that complete submission is an unhealthy thing.

With your clarification of intent, though, my point stands more as a cautionary one and not a confrontational one.

 

[Veroe]

My my seems I picked quite an issue to talk about.

Rider

Eh, you're not alone Veroe, of course that also means your not technically unique.

Thanks that makes me feel better.

Grant

The question of being less of a man, I think comes down to more of the stigma attached to what main stream thinking of the issue is, and that is what you get in most of the photo's and films based on male submission.
The majority focus on humiliation, and to sissify the male sub, actions that can be seen, rather than the emotion a sub would feel, as mentioned above.

Hence my frustration in searching for pics to use. They almost always have the wrong tone to them for just that reason.

*sigh*

Yeishia

I think that one who submits freely and unconditionally to another thereby giving full control and trust to their dominant partner is a very strong individual indeed. Such a symbiotic relationship is pure perfection.

Any wimp of course can submit simply because they are forced to.

Sadism, Bitching etc., are bells and whistles designed to enhance the experience.

My sentiments exactly on all counts, Yeishia. Yet getting that symbiotic relationship is difficult and sometimes not the same degree for different people.

I most heartily on the subject of voluntary submission. There's more power, I think, I think, in having a submissive of either gender submit to you voluntarily than only doing so because they are being forced to. In that way I feel the act of submission is more empowering to the submissive, but that's my rather newborn oppinion still subject to amendments.

And sadly it seems mine is the minority oppinion, and I fully recognize that some may wish to be forced to surrender their submission rather than giving it away voluntarily. There is a thrill in that like standing in the open seeing a tornado coming at you or running with the bulls in pamplona its scary as hell but thrilling and energizing too.

LI

Submitting sexually, or engaging in power games, is an expression of sexuality. I'm defining this foremost in order to place emphasis on the contrast.

Submitting entirely, which involves surrendering your decision making over to another human being in aspects beyond your sexuality, is unhealthy. Attempting to remove yourself from your responsibilities by placing them on another's shoulders is inherently false and inherently irresponsible.

That does not take any strength. The only thing that kind of submission takes is a degree of selfishness and lack of respect inherent either through mental illness or total and complete disregard.

The "utter submissive" in this case is -broken- as a person.

The Dominant who takes on that kind of charge? He's just as broken. There are dynamics in this kind of relationship that are clearly, blatantly, unhealthy and they manifest strongly in the "Dominant" party. Typically, the desire to control everything from eating habits to wardrobe manifests itself as a form of insecurity. The desire to be depended on for everything, to be needed to such an extreme, is in itself definitive of insecurity. Malicious behavior to express affection, or to illicit the forced sensation of need, is based almost entirely on insecurity.

Interesting, for someone who's claimed no interest in BDSM, you've clearly given it some thought, LI.

But I think I understand what you're saying...and the ones you would call insecure and unhealthy dominants would, I think, be the ones Yeishia would call the wannabe's or those less experienced at dominance.

There's a level of narcicism necessary to all dominants, but its easy for that narcicism to become an end to itself. That narcicistic dominant keeps a submissive around primarily to feed his own narcicism, and begins behaving like a despot rather than a master. Such a relationship would be ultimately self-destructive and unhealthy for both.

But on the other hand, I think, when it works, its more healthy and uplifting to both, but again my oppinions are still newborn and subject to amendments on this topic.

Alana

I have an understanding of why a couple would wish to explore the experience of Dominance and Submission, but I would have no interest in it myself.
The image I have involves no kindness, no tenderness, no affection. I'm not talking hearts and flowers btw. I just, by the use of words like 'Dominance and Submissive' can not see how it can be part of a loving equal relationship where emotional needs are met in a healthy manner.

Precisely my problem with most of the pics I search for. The tone is just all wrong.

And I also know for me that if I were to begin a relationship with a man, and he were to reveal that he were of a Submissive nature be it in day to day living, or in intimacy, I'd have no interest in him what so ever. I want a strong man..and a gentle man...Gentle doesn't make him weak...But I do believe that FOR ME, it (weak) would be my perception of a Submissive male.
I would find it very hard to respect him, never mind be sexually attracted to him.

So your oppinion would be that submission equals weakness?

I read as much here as I can on the life style, and I apologize if I term that incorrectly. I find it fascinating, and I say this only from my own view point and with no malice, but on looking at the Submissive in a couple, it makes me terribly sad for them. I would also have a very sharp and intense feeling of aggression towards a Dom, be they male or female.

I can understand that reaction, and reading some of the more shall I say "Intense" BDSM stories on Lit I have the same reaction with the qualifier that my own kink does not lend it to the more intense ones. I remember one that started off great, but wound up with me seriously wanting to punch a couple of the doms in the face for being hearless assholes.

I don't mind violence and cruelty I do have problems with violence and brutality. The first has their place and depends on circumstances largely, the latter should never be countenanced no matter the kink. That's just my two cents.

 

[girlsmiley]

Veroe very specifically expands the question outside of sexuality.
For example" If a woman is say a man's boss in the corporate world does she have to be a bitch in order to do the job and boss the man around?"
Plus, I think when you bring in the qualities of a gender being in question, you've automatically expanded beyond the bedroom.

The answer is no, definitely not. And what is this crap about submissive men? Who cares? I know strong men who are kind, thoughtful, sincere, smart, happy etc etc and have sub tendencies but they are definitely not any less "manly"

It's the exact opposite. Imagine the boss being the sub...

Work to live, not live to work.

 

[Alana_]

Hi Veroe...and yes hon. I, in a personal relationship with a man that indicated he were of a Submissive nature, would not continue that relationship. I wouldn't have the necessary respect for him as I would see it as a weakness in him, and I could not respect a man sexually that I would see as weak sexually.

If it were a woman, ..a female friend that came to me and said she was Submissive, I admit it would be different. I would wish only to protect her, because I'd feel sorry for her. I'm afraid I'd probably do everything I could to 'change her mind'.
I would just want her happy. And I can't equate being happy with giving yourself over to a man or woman, while being the one physically or emotionally on your hands and knees, instead of standing proudly face to face with a lover that should want you on his/her level.

This is a personal thing I think for everyone. For my part, my replies are how I feel, and I respect how everyone else feels. I ask the same. I think at the end of the day if you're happy, that's the main thing, and I'm happy.

 

[Light Ice]

Veroe, I'm a little surprised you added the question about the Corporate environment. It implies, or at least it implies to me, that you've never had a female boss. That's pretty rare these days depending on your position within a company.

Also, in a corporate environment, acting like a rude bitch (whether you're male or female) seldom has a positive consequence and frequently is cited as a reason for termination. Being outwardly nasty is seldom congruent to maintaining a professional appearance.

 

[Light Ice]

Hi Veroe...and yes hon. I, in a personal relationship with a man that indicated he were of a Submissive nature, would not continue that relationship. I wouldn't have the necessary respect for him as I would see it as a weakness in him, and I could not respect a man sexually that I would see as weak sexually.

If it were a woman, ..a female friend that came to me and said she was Submissive, I admit it would be different. I would wish only to protect her, because I'd feel sorry for her. I'm afraid I'd probably do everything I could to 'change her mind'.
I would just want her happy. And I can't equate being happy with giving yourself over to a man or woman, while being the one physically or emotionally on your hands and knees, instead of standing proudly face to face with a lover that should want you on his/her level.

This is a personal thing I think for everyone. For my part, my replies are how I feel, and I respect how everyone else feels. I ask the same. I think at the end of the day if you're happy, that's the main thing, and I'm happy.

I'd agree. To me, personally, the BDSM lifestyle is healthy when the games are confined to an arena of sexual exploration. The moment the Dominant/Submissive dynamic begins to spill over into the other dynamics of the relationship things begin to become unhealthy.

I think too many "dominants", especially online, are scrawny little basement dwellers snapping their belts in-front of the webcam and too many "subs", especially online, are just emotionally needy and chronically insecure women.

Dress it up however you want but that seems to consistently be the case.

 

[yeishia]

I thought you might enjoy this Veroe





Now I do know from experience that Submissive males make incredible lovers!


​

 

[Britwitch]

Now, I wasn't going to join in with this as I don't really know what my opinion is but that picture Yeishia has brought a question to my mind...

I personally wouldn't consider that as showing a submissive man. I have done that with Mr Brit, as I would imagine many women have done with their partners, and would never consider playing in such a way would fall into the D/s category. Mr Brit would have to be the least submissive man I've ever known, at least in the way I envisage a submissive male to be, and yet he and I have enjoyed playing with ice cubes on many an occasion

Just curious as to why you see it as such...?
Then again I may be taking the definition of a sub male to the extreme and you may well see this as a 'lighter' interpretation.

And to clarify, as seems to be necessary these days, this is not an accusation or a knocking of anyone's opinion. Just offering my own...and asking a question that a previous post inspired.

 

[Ausus_girl13]

Hi Veroe...and yes hon. I, in a personal relationship with a man that indicated he were of a Submissive nature, would not continue that relationship. I wouldn't have the necessary respect for him as I would see it as a weakness in him, and I could not respect a man sexually that I would see as weak sexually.

I have an understanding of why a couple would wish to explore the experience of Dominance and Submission, but I would have no interest in it myself.
The image I have involves no kindness, no tenderness, no affection. I'm not talking hearts and flowers btw. I just, by the use of words like 'Dominance and Submissive' can not see how it can be part of a loving equal relationship where emotional needs are met in a healthy manner.

I don't understand how trusting someone to that point, is a sign of the ultimate depth in a relationship. In fact I've been made feel at times that my own relationship, because it's not of a BDSM kind, is lacking because I just couldn't possibly trust my husband as deeply as a Sub trusts their Dom, because I've not ''given myself over entirely''.

I often wonder if a Sub/Dom couple were to live in my house and see the relationship I have with my husband, including our intimacies, what category would they put us under. I think there's a bit of a dominant and a submissive in us all, when hormones take hold and passions flair. It just doesn't mean BDSM/Dom/Sub come into play.

And I also know for me that if I were to begin a relationship with a man, and he were to reveal that he were of a Submissive nature be it in day to day living, or in intimacy, I'd have no interest in him what so ever. I want a strong man..and a gentle man...Gentle doesn't make him weak...But I do believe that FOR ME, it (weak) would be my perception of a Submissive male.
I would find it very hard to respect him, never mind be sexually attracted to him.

I read as much here as I can on the life style, and I apologize if I term that incorrectly. I find it fascinating, and I say this only from my own view point and with no malice, but on looking at the Submissive in a couple, it makes me terribly sad for them. I would also have a very sharp and intense feeling of aggression towards a Dom, be they male or female.

My apologies if this has gone off the actual question, but trying to directly answer Veroes first post is impossible for me. Too much comes out.

Okay, I had to highlight much of Alana's viewpoints here. And I am going to preface this with, I very much respect Alana. At no point is she wrong, because she's owned what she's saying, and that's awesome.

First, I need to address this idea of masculine strength, and a lot of this conversation surrounds what we think of as Masculine. The construction of a gender is ingrained, in fact many of us don't even really consider it in our day to day- but there it is. Ever want a head trip? Talk about the construction of gender to someone who is transgendered. I have. And it wasn't until that moment that I truly began to recognize the differences between gender and sex. And when we talk about gender and masculinity, we are talking about a profundly deep ideal.

I bet many of you can tell me HOW a man is supposed to act- no crying, no signs of outward weakness, no wearing certain clothing, no, no, no. The very act of submission, as our own Alana has so aptly put it, would turn her off if her man did that. Simply because... Men don't act that way. OR aren't supposed to. She would see him as weak, sexually.

But why?

The very act of submission is profoundly strong. Ask any submissive. Who wields the power? The submissive does. They start the play, they end the play, the entire scene is based around their pleasure and pain. Any smart person submits (which is why most submissives are women, imo).

Now to her comment about people saying the trust is deeper in an SM relationship, than a vanilla one, well it's sort of a misnomer, although true in some respects also. A couple defined strictly by their SM relationship is a sick one. Dr. J may be my boy, but he's my friend, Zom might be my dominant, but he is my boyfriend, lover and best friend first. BUT! I have to trust that Zom is going to keep me safe when I am tied up, gagged and he's pouring wax over my skin. The trust isn't necessarily deeper, but if it isn't there, I could be seriously damaged.

Also to the piece about Alana not understanding why people engage in acts of SM or kink... different strokes for different folks. I know you care just as deeply for your husband as I do for my boyfriend, but we show them differently. Besides, Alana, I'll send you a pair of handcuffs- let's see what sort of trouble you can get into with those!

I've said this once and I will say it again. Kinksters aren't better than vanilla's and vanilla's aren't better than kinksters... we all like to get off.

 

[Trixabell]

One thing to keep in mind is that there is no real clear cut way to explain why D/s does it for some and not others. Over the years and after trying to explain or rationalize to friends why sex is just not enough for me, why without D/s I would rather do without sex all together, I have come to realize that it is just who I am. I can go in to detail as to why but at the end of the day I think its like a gay person trying to justify to a strait friend why being strait doesn't work for them or vice versa - it is plain and simply just who they are and what makes them tick.

As far as tenderness goes...... for me the D/s relationship is so much more tender and loving than my regular relationships have ever been. The way a Dominate man holds onto his sub after a scene is like nothing else for me.

 

[Veroe]

I thought you might enjoy this Veroe





Now I do know from experience that Submissive males make incredible lovers!


​

To answer your question, Brit, its about context, as well as who its intended for. The pic in of itself isn't necessarily D/s, but Yeishia knows my interpretations of D/s fairly well, and thus knows the thousand words that picture is worth when I look at it paints a story of D/s in my mind's eye more than say a picture of a woman in a leather corset holding a cat-of-nine tails with a stilletto boot on the back of a hog-tied man.

To me it's plain in the expression on the man's face, the angle to which the woman is holding the ice cube. The way she's protracting the contact of the ice cube to his adam's apple to the point of excruciation for the man....

Whips and chains, strapons and ball gags are just tools in the end...sometimes something as simple as an ice cube can be just as effective as any of those given the right context, and the woman with the right imagination.

Thank you Yeishia, I love the pic

Edit: Geez, I completely forgot to thank Ausus before for her pictures. Well, Thank you belatedly, Aus.

 

[fuckmeat]

Submitting sexually, or engaging in power games, is an expression of sexuality. I'm defining this foremost in order to place emphasis on the contrast.

Submitting entirely, which involves surrendering your decision making over to another human being in aspects beyond your sexuality, is unhealthy. Attempting to remove yourself from your responsibilities by placing them on another's shoulders is inherently false and inherently irresponsible.

That does not take any strength. The only thing that kind of submission takes is a degree of selfishness and lack of respect inherent either through mental illness or total and complete disregard.

The "utter submissive" in this case is -broken- as a person.

I completely disagree with this LI. It seems you are pontificating from a position of total ignorance. I lived as a devoted slave to my Mistress for four years and it was a healthy, mutually fulfilling dynamic. There was love and affection too. People who view D/s or M/s as wholly austere and devoid of emotion have no idea what they're talking about.

The Dominant who takes on that kind of charge? He's just as broken. There are dynamics in this kind of relationship that are clearly, blatantly, unhealthy and they manifest strongly in the "Dominant" party. Typically, the desire to control everything from eating habits to wardrobe manifests itself as a form of insecurity. The desire to be depended on for everything, to be needed to such an extreme, is in itself definitive of insecurity. Malicious behavior to express affection, or to illicit the forced sensation of need, is based almost entirely on insecurity.

This is all very cliched and chauvinist. I'm really quite disappointed in you.

I'm condemning a submission that, from what I've come to understand, is remarkably rare not only in "common" society but in the BDSM community as well.

Go check out fetlife.com, alt.com, collarme.com and similar sites. Literotica is not the whole world you know and there are plenty of lifestylers who (shock horror!) don't bother discussing their kinks on the net.

I'm not attempting to condemn the community as a whole and I absolutely believe that there are many levels of healthy submission and domination that are expressed, many of which I've no interest and no comfort level with.

I'm also attempting to be gender neutral because I do not believe that mental illness, or health, is gender specific and I certainly do not believe that one gender is more inclined to practice their interests in a healthy way than the other.

Too little too late. You've insulted the fundamentals of my sexual self, as involuntary as my bisexual orientation. You have taken my four years of slave/Mistress dynamic and denounced it all as symptoms of mental illness.

I am not broken. Don't you dare sit there and tell me that I am psychologically damaged and need fixing.

My apologies Veroe, I simply could not let this pass without commenting.

 

[Light Ice]

I stand behind everything I've said.

Your reasons boil down to:

"It works for me. I'm not ill!"

People who wrestle with self-mutilation, addiction, and other compulsions use similar dialogue. They're all equally convinced they're fine and the way they live their life is happy and healthy. It's not.

 

[Veroe]

LI vs. FM



Smacks forehead. It was just an innocent thread with with an innocent question. *sigh*

And thus begins world war III

 

[fuckmeat]

I stand behind everything I've said.

Your reasons boil down to:

"It works for me. I'm not ill!"

People who wrestle with self-mutilation, addiction, and other compulsions use similar dialogue. They're all equally convinced they're fine and the way they live their life is happy and healthy. It's not.

*raises an eyebrow*

You're going to compare a consensual D/s dynamic to physical addiction and self mutilation?

Fuck it. Only a broken maso like me would attempt to headbutt such a brick wall of willful ignorance. Futility, thy name is fuckmeat.

I'm not going to attempt to deny that there are people who get into power exchange based relationships for unhealthy reasons. Unhealthy dynamics that are oppressive and abusive are NOT BDSM dynamics. There are plenty of people who are controlled or dominated who have no wish to be and/or fail to recognise how unhealthy their dynamic is.

BDSM communities define a healthy dynamic as one that is pre-negotiated and ardently desired by both parties. It requires an awareness of how and why the people involved choose to deviate from the gender equality that couples in western society expect and strive for. BDSM is consensual, mutually fulfilling and symbiotic.

Healthy desire to dominate comes from strength of character. Dominance should not be about distrust or insecurity. Any dominant with a shred of self respect will tell you that they have no desire to subjugate anyone who is unwilling, who doesn't get a huge sexual kick out of it.

Shit, it's nearly 3am here and I have work at 11am.

I will have this out with you LI.

 

[fuckmeat]

LI vs. FM



Smacks forehead. It was just an innocent thread with with an innocent question. *sigh*

And thus begins world war III

Calm down poppet. There's nothing wrong with debate.

I'll try to play nice but I have a perfect right to disagree with his viewpoint.

 

[SoulWeaver]

Wow ... so now we're pronouncing others lifestyles as illnesses and any thoughts otherwise are delusional.

Never judge ..... not in public. It's very bad manners.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

Of course, these arguments (that some behavior is a sign of sickness no matter the result of that behavior) are used by many in the context of homosexuality.
"Its an unnatural act, its weird and outside of 'normal'. Homosexuals are, obviously, mentally disturbed"

 

[Veroe]

Calm down poppet. There's nothing wrong with debate.

I'll try to play nice but I have a perfect right to disagree with his viewpoint.

Yeah debate's good let's stick with debating guys.

 

[Light Ice]

*raises an eyebrow*

You're going to compare a consensual D/s dynamic to physical addiction and self mutilation?

Fuck it. Only a broken maso like me would attempt to headbutt such a brick wall of willful ignorance. Futility, thy name is fuckmeat.

I'm not going to attempt to deny that there are people who get into power exchange based relationships for unhealthy reasons. Unhealthy dynamics that are oppressive and abusive are NOT BDSM dynamics. There are plenty of people who are controlled or dominated who have no wish to be and/or fail to recognise how unhealthy their dynamic is.

BDSM communities define a healthy dynamic as one that is pre-negotiated and ardently desired by both parties. It requires an awareness of how and why the people involved choose to deviate from the gender equality that couples in western society expect and strive for. BDSM is consensual, mutually fulfilling and symbiotic.

Healthy desire to dominate comes from strength of character. Dominance should not be about distrust or insecurity. Any dominant with a shred of self respect will tell you that they have no desire to subjugate anyone who is unwilling, who doesn't get a huge sexual kick out of it.

Shit, it's nearly 3am here and I have work at 11am.

I will have this out with you LI.

If I failed to draw the distinction between unhealthy BDSM and healthy BDSM, I apologize. My post was in reply to the concept of "utter submission".

You may practice healthy BDSM for all I know.

But the fact you acknowledge there is unhealthy visions of BDSM only proves my point.

Is it exclusive to the BDSM community? No.

There are plenty of unhealthy people who don't come near BDSM and engage in awful relationships. It's not unique to any one community.

Again, if it sounded like I was saying otherwise, my apologies.

 

[Jokas_Wild]

I stand behind everything I've said.

Your reasons boil down to:

"It works for me. I'm not ill!"

People who wrestle with self-mutilation, addiction, and other compulsions use similar dialogue. They're all equally convinced they're fine and the way they live their life is happy and healthy. It's not.

LI, I am going to politely disagree with you here sir. I find like 99% of what you say either accurate, funny or a hybrid of both but this is just a smidge too left field for my tastes.

As both a nurse and a person who indulges in BDSM related things, that's an unfair and inaccurate generalization. While it's not completely unheard of or impossible for one to be in a submissive position while unhealthy, it is not a marker of everyone involved. It's like saying all whites can't dance, mexicans are lazy and black people steal. Besides being completely offensive, doesn't it seem preposterous?

Mental Health issues can come from a laundry list of reasons, anywhere from childhood trauma to chemical imbalance to head trauma. But by no means do these issues walk hand in hand with those who enjoy Alt related things, otherwise our Asylums would be overtaken by kinky people who beat each other while proclaiming themselves Jesus. I know my arguement is a lil disjointed, long work week, but as long as you get the core message that's the real point to all this. BDSM isn't your thing, awesome, to each their own no matter what it is outside of kiddie porn of course. But to equate BDSM to Mental Disease, that is both baseless and unfair to people on each side of those spectrums.

EDIT: Read your last post and see where you towed the line. Fair enough sir, fair enough. I can respect that opinion, I was just a smidge offended at first.

 

[monique_minx]

Any wimp of course can submit simply because they are forced to.

I used no gender reference Ausus. I was speaking to the individual who is made to submit as opposed to one who is actively engaged in the process by choice.

Sorry, read the thread and don't really have anything to say that others haven't.
However, I do have to address Yeishia on these two posts.

I'm sorry Yeishia but it sounds to me like you're actually calling a rape victim or kidnap victim; a wimp?!
Do you want to rephrase or clarify?

I define both as someone 'forced to submit'.

 

[grant_s]

Sorry, read the thread and don't really have anything to say that others haven't.
However, I do have to address Yeishia on these two posts.

I'm sorry Yeishia but it sounds to me like you're actually calling a rape victim or kidnap victim; a wimp?!
Do you want to rephrase or clarify?

I define both as someone 'forced to submit'.

Minx, I think what she was meaning to say, its easy for someone (wimp) to submit to a whip, but the mental submission, where the person gives themselves freely, is what defines the submissive