Active and Passive Male Characters

[mildlyaroused]

I like this thread because it shows that there are guys out there who are actually interested in what makes women tick sexually and use these ideas to give their characters (of any gender) more depth, and moving forward we can have some better stuff to read.

We can hope.

Porn has killed their imagination. Why work for pussy when a skanky ho could just get on her knees for no reason whatsoever? Straightest line between tab A and slot B. Porn provides that.

This is probably true for a lot of men in the general population, but to publish stories on Lit you have to first write those stories - and this is an inherently creative process. If men want to get off, it's easier to watch porn than it is to write a story, whatever the shortcomings of the characters. Porn might have damaged these writers' perceptions of women, but at least (to my mind) they are being creative and writing erotica, rather than harassing women on the street or just watching more porn!

 

[Britva415]

So, what does everyone think? Does this souod familiar from anyone elses writing? Do female authors end up with passive Im not sure that its a huge problem in any one particular story, but having identified a trend Im going to be chewing over how to do something different.

I don't really have an answer for these specific questions, but dropped in to say I like stories where the man is assertive, has the brass to pursue, and succeeds at seduction. They scratch a male "Marty Stu" itch. If erotica characters are superheroes, I like it when they have more superpowers than just sex-specific ones like stamina, stimulation and supersize. Pursuit and seduction are of interest.

These kinds of stories also seem more plausible to me than ones where an unsuspecting and passive guy just gets cougared by an uncharacteristically forward girl - especially when she's also paradoxically dolled up in contradictory hyperfeminine trappings like the inhibited and demure Chinese girls someone mentioned.

 

[WeShallUnclench]

OMisspearl, who writes about femdom and who writes femdom, is an interesting reference for me.

Her stories are, by nature, all about aggressive female protagonists who go after them boys.

That's not, however, from the angle of entertaining a male pov character*, naturally. But rather, the active role of the women is because it's specifically a female-pov power fantasy.

I suppose one way to put it is, in any regard that the male character is passive (or a "victim"), it's because he is the object of desire (sometimes wrapped in wrath), not the recipient of sexytimes.

MissPearl also wrote in her essays plenty about whiny, entitled, overly self-centered subs who haven't really wrapped their heads around the female desire thing. A lot of what she says mirrors what @pink_silk_glove said here, even if coming at it from a different angle.

Personally, I like to believe that it must be possible to write stories like that pleasing, well not everyone, but both sides of this specific coin, so to speak: women who are into men (and identifying with active, ravenous female protagonists), and men who are not just into women, but into being wanted by women. The latter half of the equation also includes genuine interest in seeing female characters being developped and thriving, and seeing how male characters can contribue to that by being actual quality fuel.
Note that those mc don't necessarily need to be "hunks" - they must just, on some level, be worth getting your claws into.
I also briefly talked with @pink_silk_glove about that in the other thread.
They can even be cute and meek, or weird and gross. But it must be clear why he invites a primal response, what makes him "useful" to the fc's story.
Again, Omisspearl strikes me as a good reference.

EDIT: One way to differenciate between "dull reader-insert boy" and "object of desire" might be to start with, who's story is it, really? Is it hers? Is it his? Does it actually belong to both of them?

-

*including "sneaky" male pov. You can write first person female characters all you want, it doesn't by itself safeguard against her just being a vehicle to satisfy the "real" pov character - the whimpy male character the author and much of his audience secretly identify with.
The reverse is also true, btw. Omisspearl herself has several male pov stories that are just as designed for the female gaze as her female pov stories.

 

[WeShallUnclench]

Cynically speaking, I suspect people in general tend to be a bit insecure, entitled and lazy in matters of eros. Myself very much not excluded. Everyone wants to be sexed at by someone who is super cool.

You also get that in discussions lamenting about "dom(me) to sub ratios".
But in a much broader sense, you could talk about the ratio between leaders and followers.

People have a preference for laying back and being entertained and/or guided. That's what ultimately makes the manic pixie, of any gender, so appealing.

People want to be sparked, carried away to a world of wonders and possibilities, not claw their way uphill through incertitude, indifference, ignorance and rejection. "Can't it be enough, that I'm just, me?"

Constructively speaking, maybe we can write better stories if we realize that something like this might be the starting point for every character. Maybe everyone is a bit of a dull loser, at their heart, and at the same time a bit of the manix pixie, or needs to learn how to be one.

 

[WeShallUnclench]

Another general note, I get the frustration one can have with real or perceived audience demands regarding what objects of desire are supposed to be like (no matter your own gender).

When you cannot for the fck of you identify with the characters the audience (supposedly) wants, that can itself feel like a rejection and being pushed out of your own stories. As a reader, you can rapidly get the feeling you are not invited to the party as part of the intended audience.

For male writers, for instance, there is sometimes transparent frustration over "confident men who take charge", because that's neither what they themselves are nor want to be.

Possible remedies to this (there must be many more):

- Male writers are, in fact, allowed to identify with the female characters, and take on their cause. Within that role, you must not agree with what ""the other girls"" want, but you must explore the concept of want, detached from the interests of the mc in your story.
It's also possible you discover that when you find yourself at the other side of the equation, you DO actually prefer the confident hunk with a phD who is 10-20 years older and owns a house. And then, maybe it will be enjoyable for you to write about that fcker as a love interest.

- Circling back to what I said in another reply, see every character as an opportunity to explore both desire and wanting to be desired, weakness and strength, being active and passive. The wet blanket AND the dream hunk. Have your characters have compassion with one another - your self insert might be a shy whimp, but maybe his awesome sex-crazy dragon queen could really, really use a hunk who speaks his mind, right now?

- Stories do not need to end well, or at least not neatly. I get that in erotica, that's a bit of a buzzkill, but it could still be used to mix things up.
In OP's example, maybe one of the amazing Chinese girls ends up being utterly disappointed, once she has caught the object of her desire. Maybe the characters then have to talk about it, and figure out how to go from there.

And for now, I'll stop. I get the creeping feeling I want to write essays about that shit, and I'm not sure I'm ready for that.

 

[TheRedChamber]

I like this thread because it shows that there are guys out there who are actually interested in what makes women tick sexually and use these ideas to give their characters (of any gender) more depth, and moving forward we can have some better stuff to read.

Well Im certainly going to have a crack at it.

Your story was unique though. At first the lead male (Ben) was quite weak (sexually) but there were several other factors at play. For starters, your characters and your style were strong enough to keep me engaged.

Thanks. Yes, I think it worked and was what I intended, its just interesting, looked at from a certain angle, how few decisions the MC makes through the story - the whole series evolved as a 'quirky sexually adventerous girl does quirky sexual adventurous thing of the week and drags her boyfriend along for the ride.' Which is kind of what we're talking about here. Just this one ended up with some consequences.

Maybe you guys could tell me but I suspect that it's porn. When I was a teen, the guys all wanted to be Tom Brady, Han Solo or James Bond. Now with point-and-click free porn they don't need such heroes. Porn has killed their imagination. Why work for pussy when a skanky ho could just get on her knees for no reason whatsoever? Straightest line between tab A and slot B. Porn provides that. How wrong am I guys?

And I certainly don’t think it’s porn warping male minds to no longer like Bond movies. They still make Bond movies, and if anything the dawn of the internet has built a disturbing subculture of male influencers who try to sell themselves as powerful, aggressive ‘alpha males’ while teaching young men to behave in deeply weird ways.

Something is going on. The Craig Bond films were 'misery Bond' films - constantly tut tutting at Bond lifestyle and making sure he didnt have any fun. There have also been a number of articles on how the Marvel movies avoid sex. (Counterpoint theres still tons of it about on prestige TV)

Porn answers the questions of what that girl looks like naked and what faces she makes when she cums - all important questions that we, as men, need to know. It doesnt answer the question of how we, the Joe Schmoes of the world, can get her into that position (and maybe keep her there long term). There is, after all, no such genre as 'male romance' and thing have become even muddier recently as we are increasingly told that just because we slay the dragom, it doesnt automatically mean we win the princess. I havent seen these male influences (I probably should do some research) but theyre probably the other side of the Incel coin where modern young men look around and wonder what they are expected to actually do these days.

 

[AG31]

Your story was unique though.

Which of his stories are you referring to?

 

[TheRedChamber]

Which of his stories are you referring to?

This one (Double Fault)

 

[Rob_Royale]

My male characters are competent, first and foremost. Competent and reliable. I'm old enough that three of my old female friends would qualify as cougars. I call them my Three Muses. I chatted with them on this subject, (much to their amusement), when I first started writing. To them, being experienced in the bedroom is a must, because training fresh cubs is tiresome. I create young men that I think an older woman would be attracted to, based on their input. It's always nice to go to the source. But there's no real mystery to it.

A young man, 23-30, in shape, and a decent guy. He's educated and/or trained and has a reliable job. He need not be a lawyer or doctor, but someone who's made their place in the world. A servicemember, a mechanic, a firefighter, a carpenter. He's intelligent and knows when to be active or passive. They seem to favor men with physical jobs, where a man has to work with his hands. The carpenter from The Colonel's Wife is loosely based on one of my muse's favorite cubs.

My muses have read several of my stories and they seem to like the work. All my stories are my own, I just picked their brains on what they were attracted to.

 

[MillieDynamite]

You can pick your friends, you can pick your nose, but you cannot pick your friends' noses. I guess picking their minds is okay, though.

My male characters are competent, first and foremost. Competent and reliable. I'm old enough that three of my old female friends would qualify as cougars. I call them my Three Muses. I chatted with them on this subject, (much to their amusement), when I first started writing. To them, being experienced in the bedroom is a must, because training fresh cubs is tiresome. I create young men that I think an older woman would be attracted to, based on their input. It's always nice to go to the source. But there's no real mystery to it.

A young man, 23-30, in shape, and a decent guy. He's educated and/or trained and has a reliable job. He need not be a lawyer or doctor, but someone who's made their place in the world. A servicemember, a mechanic, a firefighter, a carpenter. He's intelligent and knows when to be active or passive. They seem to favor men with physical jobs, where a man has to work with his hands. The carpenter from The Colonel's Wife is loosely based on one of my muse's favorite cubs.

My muses have read several of my stories and they seem to like the work. All my stories are my own, I just picked their brains on what they were attracted to.

 

[NoTalentHack]

You can pick your friends, you can pick your nose, but you cannot pick your friends' noses.

I'll take "fetishes I don't want to read" for $600, Alex.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I'll take "fetishes I don't want to read" for $600, Alex.

No kink shaming!

 

[Voboy]

No kink shaming!

Wait, you're into that too????

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Wait, you're into that too????

A girl has gotta have her secrets.

 

[TheWritingGroup]

No kink shaming!

You're kink-shaming people who get off on kink-shaming!

-Rocco

 

[AG31]

Regarding your Double Fault, normally I wouldn't read a story in Lit of this category and this length. But I was interested in your interest in passive male characters. And I was curious about how you handled my criteria for eroticism of self-awareness and self-acceptance. So I copied it into Word and sent it to my Kindle to read like a regular library book.

I'm glad I did. I thoroughly enjoyed it! it's a superb bit of fiction.I can't say I'll eagerly look for the next TheRedChamber story like I do fo an Elizabeth George or Ann Cleeves, but I did enjoy it. I enjoyed it because Ben was so vivid and I was happy to spend time with him.

That satisfies my first criterion for erotica... authenticity. See post earlier in thread.

It also satisfied my second criterion, that is that the MC be self aware and self accepting (again, see earlier post), but it still didn't work for me erotically. I realize that another criterion for me is that I don't have to share the MC with other women. I don't want to read about relationships. Double Fault wouldn't exist apart from the relationship, so you shouldn't try to please this particular female reader at the erotic level!

And here are a couple of lines that made me smile out loud.

"No listing the prime numbers or thinking of Charles and Camilla in bed has ever worked for me."

"..it's not the best unnilingus I've ever given, .expecially as her skirt keeps blowing off my head and into my eyes."

And then I posted another line in the "writer's notebook" thread.


Congratulations on a fine story.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Porn answers the questions of what that girl looks like naked and what faces she makes when she cums - all important questions that we, as men, need to know. It doesnt answer the question of how we, the Joe Schmoes of the world, can get her into that position (and maybe keep her there long term). There is, after all, no such genre as 'male romance'

?

There is of course gay male romance, but even assuming an implied "hetero" here, I'm still not sure what you mean here.

If you're talking about something that shows male protagonists making themselves desirable to women without having a fortune/slaying dragons/etc. there's plenty out there already on the romance shelves. It's not all time-travelling Viking werewolf billionaires.
though I can't promise it's all not time-travelling Viking werewolf billionaires, they get around

and thing have become even muddier recently as we are increasingly told that just because we slay the dragom, it doesnt automatically mean we win the princess.

I get that "you're not guaranteed your dream partner, no matter what you achieve" is hard for young men to deal with.

But does the average young guy of today really have it tougher in that regard than, say, the average fat girl over the last century?

 

[StillStunned]

It's not all time-travelling Viking werewolf billionaires.

It's a shame "Homely Hanna and the Time-Travelling Viking Werewolf Billionaire" has too many characters, because it would be a great story title.

 

[TheLobster]

But does the average young guy of today really have it tougher in that regard than, say, the average fat girl over the last century?

It’s quite telling that your comparison has only one side with an obvious disadvantage. Since you needed to add it for both sides to feel equal enough to even ask this question, it is thus extremely obvious what the answer is.

 

[TheRedChamber]

If you're talking about something that shows male protagonists making themselves desirable to women without having a fortune/slaying dragons/etc. there's plenty out there already on the romance shelves. It's not all time-travelling Viking werewolf billionaires.
though I can't promise it's all not time-travelling Viking werewolf billionaires, they get around

Men can and I'm sure do enjoy some traditional romance and rom-coms, ones that are mainly marketed to women (with the assumption that she'll drag him to the cinema anyway). But how many romances have there been in the last few years that break through into mainstream conciousness and have a distinct male focus? High Fidelity is the main one I can think of, with maybe something like As Good as it Gets playing better with men than women once they were actually watching it.

 

[TheRedChamber]

I get that "you're not guaranteed your dream partner, no matter what you achieve" is hard for young men to deal with.

But does the average young guy of today really have it tougher in that regard than, say, the average fat girl over the last century?

The problem with these kind of gender wars topics is they alway end up with both sides trying to prove that they have it worst (for all time, for everyone everywhere) with the implication that the other side should shut up and stop whining. And the women's side always has the nukes of sexual assault* and Wade vs Roe in reserve. Things can be bad for both sides in different ways.

(*increased risk of...)

Here's a thought experiment...

Imagine a nightclub/winebar with a representative cross sample of the single population (Lets set it at 18-30 for the moment). The club has the following rules.

- Men can approach women but must start with the words 'Hi. My name is ...Can I buy you a drink?'
- Anything other than a clear yes from the lady and that interaction is over for the rest of the evening.
- The women know the rules so aren't expecting any 'game' yet.
- Anyone can leave at any time when its no longer worth their while or they can buy their own drinks and enjoy the company of their same-gendered friend group all evening if they want.

The question is, what percentage of men are leaving the club night not having been allowed to buy a single drink. Or what are the odds, on any particular evening, that your average (lets say median) guy strikes out.

On the other hand, forget 'fat', there's a macabre incel game of what physical and character flaws you can give a girl and still have her be able to drink herself into A&E every night for free if she so chooses.

The point is that for many guys, its not that they dont get their dream relationship, its not even that they aren't in a relationship at all, its that they find it very difficult to get any kind of shot at a relationship.

 

[StillStunned]

The problem with these kind of gender wars topics is they alway end up with both sides trying to prove that they have it worst (for all time, for everyone everywhere) with the implication that the other side should shut up and stop whining. And the women's side always has the nukes of sexual assault* and Wade vs Roe in reserve. Things can be bad for both sides in different ways.

I wish Americans would be more aware, if they want to involve "everyone everywhere" in the discussion, that referring to Wade vs Roe is likely to be met with a blank stare and the question, "Wasn't that the 1968 Wimbledon Women's Final?"

 

[TheRedChamber]

I wish Americans would be more aware, if they want to involve "everyone everywhere" in the discussion, that referring to Wade vs Roe is likely to be met with a blank stare and the question, "Wasn't that the 1968 Wimbledon Women's Final?"

Well, Im British but Id argue that it's important enough issues that well-read people around the world should be aware of it.

 

[TheLobster]

I wish Americans would be more aware, if they want to involve "everyone everywhere" in the discussion, that referring to Wade vs Roe is likely to be met with a blank stare and the question, "Wasn't that the 1968 Wimbledon Women's Final?"

 

[StillStunned]

Well, Im British but Id argue that it's important enough issues that well-read people around the world should be aware of it.

Or you could just say "abortion laws", which are more universal and regularly feature in worldwide news.