Active and Passive Male Characters

[TheRedChamber]

Or you could just say "abortion laws", which are more universal and regularly feature in worldwide news.

I could have done and probably would have done if I'd have known it was going to be an issue. Honestly the whole extra-legaslative multi-state clusterfuck of RvW is in some ways more sinister than another country's parliament simply deciding they do or dont want legal abortions.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I wish Americans would be more aware, if they want to involve "everyone everywhere" in the discussion, that referring to Wade vs Roe is likely to be met with a blank stare and the question, "Wasn't that the 1968 Wimbledon Women's Final?"

I'm a little surprised by that response, to be honest. In terms of twentieth century culture in the English speaking world, Wade versus Roe is sorta kinda up there with the big ones. Not quite Kennedy or moon landings, sure, but second tier, I'd have thought.

 

[StillStunned]

I'm a little surprised by that response, to be honest. In terms of twentieth century culture in the English speaking world, Wade versus Roe is sorta kinda up there with the big ones. Not quite Kennedy or moon landings, sure, but second tier, I'd have thought.

I know what it is. I'm just saying, if you're going to refer to "everyone everywhere", Roe v Wade doesn't have universal relevance. Living in Europe, for instance, I'm more concerned with the developments in Poland.

 

[WeShallUnclench]

The question is, what percentage of men are leaving the club night not having been allowed to buy a single drink. Or what are the odds, on any particular evening, that your average (lets say median) guy strikes out.

Not to derail this thread too much further, but just as a bit of trivia I'd like to add that there have indeed been several experiments made about this.

Basic setup: Women sit at tables, men pick someone to talk to and then both partners rate the other's attractiveness and if they want to see the other person again.

Result: Men performed poorly, with low scores.

Twist: Switch up experiment with equivalent cast, men sit at the tables, woman told to pick one.

Result: Men get noticeably higher attractiveness ratings, higher chance for a date. All men - it's not like all the women just flocked to only a handful of super hot guys who distorted the statistics.
Women, however, got lower scores and follow-up.

Hypothesis: Whether or not there are other biases between the genders, it would seem the person you pick is, for most people, more attractive and less threatening than the person who picks you, once social convention (the "proper" way of who should approach who) is eliminated.

Bonus Gender-Difference Experiment not related, but a real fun one I can never resist sharing -

Basic setup: Women and men are told to play video game about brutally making enemies explode.
Mixed group, and then separate group where gender is hidden from the other players.

Result: When visible as women, women tend to have more meek playstyle with lower kill score than their abilities would allow for.
When gender is hidden, women consistently more vicious than men, aim to anihilate everything that moves with great delight.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Men can and I'm sure do enjoy some traditional romance and rom-coms, ones that are mainly marketed to women (with the assumption that she'll drag him to the cinema anyway). But how many romances have there been in the last few years that break through into mainstream conciousness and have a distinct male focus?

And there's the rub: no matter what good depictions of male-female relationships might be found in romances, they're not going to do a lick of good to guys who refuse to read romance.

I guess we could try rebranding them as AXE!!! ROMANCE FOR MEN! IT'LL MAKE YOUR BEARD GROW A BEARD! and put, IDK, Greek warriors on the cover (nothing more heterosexual than Greek warriors! shirtless and oiled!) But I'm minded of this meme:

High Fidelity is the main one I can think of, with maybe something like As Good as it Gets playing better with men than women once they were actually watching it.

Not that I'd recommend either of those to young lads trying to understand how to get a girlfriend...

On the other hand, forget 'fat', there's a macabre incel game of what physical and character flaws you can give a girl and still have her be able to drink herself into A&E every night for free if she so chooses.

No doubt. But many women don't find that an appealing prospect, and that particular version of "free" often comes with significant strings attached.

I think part of where these thought experiments tend to fail is that the MRA versions are very often predicated on the assumption that any attention is better than no attention, and that's just not a universally accepted axiom.

Or as somebody or other put it: "how can you complain about being hungry when there's a stale hot dog bun in that dumpster?"

The point is that for many guys, its not that they dont get their dream relationship, its not even that they aren't in a relationship at all, its that they find it very difficult to get any kind of shot at a relationship.

I can sympathise; aside from a few months of very chaste long-distance relationship, I was single until my twenties. It was lonely and frustrating. But some relationships are far worse than being single.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Not to nitpick, well maybe a little nitpicky, it's Roe v. Wade.

I'm a little surprised by that response, to be honest. In terms of twentieth century culture in the English speaking world, Wade versus Roe is sorta kinda up there with the big ones. Not quite Kennedy or moon landings, sure, but second tier, I'd have thought.

 

[subdudeme13]

Not to nitpick, well maybe a little nitpicky, it's Roe v. Wade.

Roe v Wade is bigger than the moon landings. IMHO. I recall when it passed and I was driving taxi a couple got in and described how she was going to get an abortion. She was happy but crying too. She explained and apologized. I told her it was none of my (damn?) business. The moon landing was historical but did not effect so many lives directly.

 

[MillieDynamite]

If you don't include any of the ancillary benefits, maybe. Medical, scientific, improved avionics, (Tange), and even computers owe much to the space program, in general, and specifically the Apollo program.

 

[SimonDoom]

Not to nitpick, well maybe a little nitpicky, it's Roe v. Wade.

They say it differently in countries where you drive on the left side.

 

[MillieDynamite]

OIC.

They say it differently in countries where you drive on the left side.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Hypothesis: Whether or not there are other biases between the genders, it would seem the person you pick is, for most people, more attractive and less threatening than the person who picks you, once social convention (the "proper" way of who should approach who) is eliminated.

But then let's compare this hypothesis to male characters in general on lit. The man may be more attracted to the woman that he chooses, but these passive male characters never choose the woman that they want. The woman that they want simply magically chooses him and gets to work. It's great for a male fantasy but it's boring as hell for a woman.

And on the plot side (not everyone wants plot, that's fine but for those of either gender who do) it makes a really limp plot on top of everything else. There are a few writers here who actually do admit that they don't really care about plot, but many writers here claim repeatedly "my characters drive plot". Well, not these characters. Skanky unicorn girl jumping limp guy for sheer horniness is not plot. There is no plot there for those characters to drive.

 

[AG31]

There is, after all, no such genre as 'male romance' and thing have become even muddier recently as we are increasingly told that just because we slay the dragom, it doesnt automatically mean we win the princess. I havent seen these male influences (I probably should do some research) but theyre probably the other side of the Incel coin where modern young men look around and wonder what they are expected to actually do these days.

I tend to stay out of these conversations about the behavior and tastes of one sex vs the other. I stay out because the minute I open my virtual mouth I realize that generalizations are always flawed.

BUT! I am interested in the broad, stereotypical differences. I'm interested because late in life I've developed a strong, clear appreciation for male physicality. It feels akin to the accepted notion of how men lust after female bodies. (I've begun to believe the adage that men think about sex every 4 minutes (6? 10?).

I don't see this portrayed very much by other women. Granted, I don't read a lot of categories here on Lit. Maybe I'm just missing this. How many of you women think you're attracted to generic maleness the way men are (purported) to be attracted to generic femaleness?

Apologies to the extent that I'm trying to hi-jack this thread. It just felt OK to ask a question that makes (ridiculous) assumptions about the difference between men and women.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Not to derail this thread too much further, but just as a bit of trivia I'd like to add that there have indeed been several experiments made about this.

Basic setup: Women sit at tables, men pick someone to talk to and then both partners rate the other's attractiveness and if they want to see the other person again.

Result: Men performed poorly, with low scores.

Twist: Switch up experiment with equivalent cast, men sit at the tables, woman told to pick one.

Result: Men get noticeably higher attractiveness ratings, higher chance for a date. All men - it's not like all the women just flocked to only a handful of super hot guys who distorted the statistics.
Women, however, got lower scores and follow-up.

Hypothesis: Whether or not there are other biases between the genders, it would seem the person you pick is, for most people, more attractive and less threatening than the person who picks you, once social convention (the "proper" way of who should approach who) is eliminated.

Bonus Gender-Difference Experiment not related, but a real fun one I can never resist sharing -

Basic setup: Women and men are told to play video game about brutally making enemies explode.
Mixed group, and then separate group where gender is hidden from the other players.

Result: When visible as women, women tend to have more meek playstyle with lower kill score than their abilities would allow for.
When gender is hidden, women consistently more vicious than men, aim to anihilate everything that moves with great delight.

I was married to a woman for fifteen years, so I so get this. Of course, I'm now working to become one, so, again, I so get this...

 

[AG31]

But then let's compare this hypothesis to male characters in general on lit. The man may be more attracted to the woman that he chooses, but these passive male characters never choose the woman that they want. The woman that they want simply magically chooses him and gets to work. It's great for a male fantasy but it's boring as hell for a woman.

And on the plot side (not everyone wants plot, that's fine but for those of either gender who do) it makes a really limp plot on top of everything else. There are a few writers here who actually do admit that they don't really care about plot, but many writers here claim repeatedly "my characters drive plot". Well, not these characters. Skanky unicorn girl jumping limp guy for sheer horniness is not plot. There is no plot there for those characters to drive.

Read @TheRedChamber's Double Fault. For sure the characters are driving the plot. I was very impressed.
But wait, I think you have read it. I think it was a post of yours that put me on to it. I'll go check.

EDIT
Ahh! So Double Fault stands out as an exception.

"Your story was unique though. At first the lead male (Ben) was quite weak (sexually) but there were several other factors at play. For starters, your characters and your style were strong enough to keep me engaged. "

SECOND EDIT - i see my post has an attachment. It has nothing to do with this thread and I can't get at it to remove it with an edit.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Read @TheRedChamber's Double Fault. For sure the characters are driving the plot. I was very impressed.
But I think you have read it. I think it was a post of yours that put me on to it. I'll go check.

Double Fault has a terrific plot. There is far far far more to it than skanky girl mounts weak dude. As an example it does not apply. At all.

 

[StillStunned]

There is, after all, no such genre as 'male romance'

Mike Gayle's early novels were described as "male chicklit". They were also very readable. My Legendary Girlfriend. Dinner for Two, Brand New Friend, His'n'Hers, Wish You Were Here, Turning Thirty.

 

[NoTalentHack]

And there's the rub: no matter what good depictions of male-female relationships might be found in romances, they're not going to do a lick of good to guys who refuse to read romance.

Just as a reminder: a huge chunk of Loving Wives IS romance for men. In these sort of "dude romances," the divorce/cheating happens at the beginning of the story and is the impetus for the protagonist to do things to improve his life, move forward, find someone new, etc.

There is actually a big thirst for those types of stories; however, romances in dude-focused books tend to be subplots rather than main plots; it shows up a lot in some types of sci-fi/fantasy/mystery/men's adventure.

Most "pure" romances for guys would look a lot different than ones for women, too, because... well, look at this thread. However, there is a plot for female-POV romance that is almost a one-to-one match for the type of dude romance that shows up in LW. "Found out my boyfriend/fiance/husband is cheating, pick myself up, dust myself off, move forward, meet a new guy who is rich/handsome/supportive/pick your posion, have a miscommunication about *thing* because of previous betrayal, make up, ride off into the sunset" is a classic chicklit romance... and it's almost exactly the plot of a solid 50-75% of the "marital drama" LW stories.

The "better woman" that the guy meets in these stories is usually a bit more down-to-earth in terms of "realism" (usually more like a slightly younger, attractive, and sexually available woman who's similarly been hurt rather than a billionaire supermodel), but the beats line up almost exactly. They're also, amusingly for an erotic site, lighter on explicit sex than most spicy romances meant for women.

There's a reason these things are so popular on YouTube, and it's not (just) misogyny. There is a market here, but as often happens, it's a market that no one can/does market to and/or one which no one has figured out how to make pay at a level necessary for publishing houses to weather the storm that will come with selling these stories.

ETA: Also, Double Fault was really good. Unrelated to point above.

 

[WeShallUnclench]

But then let's compare this hypothesis to male characters in general on lit. The man may be more attracted to the woman that he chooses, but these passive male characters never choose the woman that they want. The woman that they want simply magically chooses him and gets to work. It's great for a male fantasy but it's boring as hell for a woman.

Ah. But the author chooses her. And if we go by one of the cases where the limp male is secretly a self-insert...

But I see what you are getting at.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

And if we go by one of the cases where the limp male is secretly a self-insert...

One of?

 

[MillieDynamite]

My writing is generally character-driven, not plot-driven. There is a plot, but the characters, their actions, and emotions are the show. Most pansters, like me, have a plot in their head and try to stick to it, but the characters rule my writing.

But then let's compare this hypothesis to male characters in general on lit. The man may be more attracted to the woman that he chooses, but these passive male characters never choose the woman that they want. The woman that they want simply magically chooses him and gets to work. It's great for a male fantasy but it's boring as hell for a woman.

And on the plot side (not everyone wants plot, that's fine but for those of either gender who do) it makes a really limp plot on top of everything else. There are a few writers here who actually do admit that they don't really care about plot, but many writers here claim repeatedly "my characters drive plot". Well, not these characters. Skanky unicorn girl jumping limp guy for sheer horniness is not plot. There is no plot there for those characters to drive.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

But then let's compare this hypothesis to male characters in general on lit. The man may be more attracted to the woman that he chooses, but these passive male characters never choose the woman that they want. The woman that they want simply magically chooses him and gets to work. It's great for a male fantasy but it's boring as hell for a woman.

And on the plot side (not everyone wants plot, that's fine but for those of either gender who do) it makes a really limp plot on top of everything else. There are a few writers here who actually do admit that they don't really care about plot, but many writers here claim repeatedly "my characters drive plot". Well, not these characters. Skanky unicorn girl jumping limp guy for sheer horniness is not plot. There is no plot there for those characters to drive.

I can see a ton of plot potential here. What are the skanky unicorn girls motivations? What's her back story? Was the limp guy always limp? What happened to him to make him that way? Perhaps skanky unicorn girl recruits limp guys with sex for some nefarious reason(pick a genre). As writers, it's our job, our commitment to find that plot, and when we can't find it, create it.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I can see a ton of plot potential here. What are the skanky unicorn girls motivations? What's her back story? Was the limp guy always limp? What happened to him to make him that way? Perhaps skanky unicorn girl recruits limp guys with sex for some nefarious reason(pick a genre). As writers, it's our job, our commitment to find that plot, and when we can't find it, create it.

These stories rarely answer any of those questions. Rarely do they even try. When they do it's a predictable reason dropped in an info-dump.

Now granted, a good writer could put some imagination into this and somehow salvage an actual story (but it probably wouldn't score well, just as breaking the template in romance will get you poor scores no matter how well you write it), but we are talking about lit here. There are a lot of bad writers. And let's look at how this thread started. It was in response to another thread started by someone who was trying to write stories that appealed to both genders and wanted advice. Hence, he was a writer trying to add more to his repertoire, or in other words to be a better writer. At the root of it, this entire forum is for writers to share and discuss ideas to learn from, broaden our perspectives and skills and be better writers.

I'll also add that I disagree that there is really much potential in hot skank jumps weak dude. Seven out of ten stories on lit are unicorn climbs loser. It's done to death.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

Perhaps skanky unicorn girl recruits limp guys with sex for some nefarious reason(pick a genre).

And here I was doing so well staying on task with my current story... So much for that.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

Erotic horror: human sacrifice
NC/R: white slavery
I/R: white slavery
...

 

[Bramblethorn]

Just as a reminder: a huge chunk of Loving Wives IS romance for men. In these sort of "dude romances," the divorce/cheating happens at the beginning of the story and is the impetus for the protagonist to do things to improve his life, move forward, find someone new, etc.

I'd agree with calling those "male romance" in a general sense, maybe not in earshot of the readership ;-)

But I was commenting in response to this:

the dawn of the internet has built a disturbing subculture of male influencers who try to sell themselves as powerful, aggressive ‘alpha males’ while teaching young men to behave in deeply weird ways.

Porn...doesnt answer the question of how we, the Joe Schmoes of the world, can get her into that position (and maybe keep her there long term). There is, after all, no such genre as 'male romance' and thing have become even muddier recently as we are increasingly told that just because we slay the dragom, it doesnt automatically mean we win the princess. I havent seen these male influences (I probably should do some research) but theyre probably the other side of the Incel coin where modern young men look around and wonder what they are expected to actually do these days.

So I was talking specifically about stories that model behaviour that gives useful answers to "how do I get a girlfriend"? My not-too-well-informed impression is that a lot of the LW stories with a romantic happy ending don't fit that bill. Of those I've read, there was a lot of "and then I met a hot and loyal woman who recognised the injustices I'd faced and took my side" without talking much about how the guy made himself worth having.

Is that accurate, or am I misjudging the category? You know LW much better than I do.