all this topping from the bottom talk has got me thinking

[Grvdigger]

Just My thoughts....

but if I go back to the original question about topping from the bottom I think it comes down to intent. in lilredwolphs example she is gathering knowledge and sharing with her Dom, she is not trying to usurp His authority. There is nothing wrong with that. But if manipulation is the intent behind then it is wrong, whether from the Dom or sub. As with most things in this lifestyle it is the intent behind what is being done. In the middle of a scene I may call My sub a slut, there is no bad intent behind those words and she enjoys it. But outside a scene I would not do it.

As for labels, unfortunetly We need them. As humans we have a tendency to have to put name to things to satisfy a need within. What gets ppl in trouble is that the defintions are not the same for all. Maybe labels with explantions should be used so the idea is what comes out instead of just the words

 

[Xodus]

Hi All
I read something a while back that I can't find now.
It was an article about the difference in a Dom-sub relationship and a Master-slave relationship.
The author went on to say that a relationship can go from the very extreme Master-slave relationship to a very light Dom-sub relationship. It all falls under the BDSM lifestyle.
Communication is the key to finding out where your relationship lies within this giagantic spectre.
If you find out that your partner is more extreme or less extreme than you are, or if your partner is not fulfilling and cannot fulfill your needs, it's probably time to move on.
But I still think communication is the key to finding and keeping the right person or persons in any kind of a relationship; from Master-slave to just friends.
If a sub wants a relationship where they can top from the bottom then they just need to find a Dom that doesn't mind
I'm not sure top from the bottom is the right phrase though. I think it's just a relationship in which the sub has a lot of the control. I think there are probably many such relationships out there.

 

[Pure]

Hi lilredwolph:

I have some comments, purely my personal pov, on a couple points you raised. This aim, of course, is not to tell you how to get off, or any alleged right way to do it, since you seem to know what works for you.


lilredwolph:

my point is why do so many ("newer than me") subs feel that even bringing up a subject (forget asking for it) is out of line or topping from the bottom? it just doesn't make sense to me. if i am going to let somebody put a dagger inside my pussy or light fires on my chest, i am going to make damn sure that person knows what they're doing by more ways than just watching them do it to somebody else, i want to know all there is to know because i am the one that will end up in ER if something goes wrong.

It's an extreme example, but yes they need to know what they're doing with that dagger. May I say there's a difference between,
a) Giving someone a map of the city, or even a guided tour, and
b) Saying, if you want to get to the zoo, this road is best and
c) Saying "You must see our football stadium and our Rams and I'm going to take you there." The last is directing in the sense relevant here.

Your 'dom' certainly deserve a 'map' of you. If an insertion of a blade more than 2 1/2 ins. is going to injure you, he'd better know that and you should say that as part of your 'guided tour' of your bod.

None of this is saying what he's to do in your next scene, just "showing him around the premises" as the real estate agents say!


lilredwolph, later
i don't not say do this do that during a scene, but when i am showing him how to do something i am the teacher he is the student, and i will stop him and tell him "no your doing that all wrong" or "do it this way bozo", what he chooses to do with what i have taught him i have no control over nor do i care to (unless something during scene goes very very very wrong at which point i will voice up).

Sounds right; he has to know the 'lay of the land', so to say... ;-)

I think zipman, his usual articulate self, put things pretty well:


zipman7:
First, bear in mind, these are my views on the subject.

The question is when should communication occur. First off, it should occur BEFORE doing anything, I think limits and preferences should be thoroughly discussed. There should also be continued communication throughout a relationship. I have regular communication with my sub, but it happens when I decide to do it, unless there is a problem. My sub is free to discuss things that she might like to try. I may choose to do them or I may choose not to. I will never do them right then. To me, that is blurring the lines of control.

This sounds right. To hear and listen to the other's (sub's) preferences. The Master/Mistress decides what to do; whether, and when, if at all, to indulge them.

I'd add that there not one course for all time. If the sub prefers strawberries to coleslaw, then strawbs would be a fine treat when s/he has carried out a plan well, and behaved with great devotion. Coleslaw, though might be chosen when she's been slack or unruly.


However, once the limits and preferences have been discussed, the sub should submit to the desires of the Dom/me. This does not mean that things can't be renegotiated. It does mean that the relationship is decided by the Dom/me. The essence of a BDSM relationship is control. If the sub dictates or continually is suggesting things to do, then the Dom/me is not in control of the relationship.

That's it exactly; three sentences. The difference is, in lilredwolph's example: "My vagina can accept a 2 1/2 in blade, gently inserted." and "I want you to go and get the knife and play with me; tie me up and insert it exactly 2 1/2 ins."

I'm not entirely comfortable with this form of play, never done it, but it's her example! ;-)


The dynamic of "topping from the bottom" can be very detrimental to a BDSM relationship, especially in the long run. Once you establish a dynamic of telling your Dom/me what to do, they begin to rely on it. Later, when you crave greater control, you may well find that you what you have is a Dom/me waiting for your next "suggestion." By then, it is often too difficult to change this dynamic.

Here I do not agree, though it may surprise some who think I
believe 'topping from the bottom' to be wrong. It's not wrong, it simply means the alleged 'bottom' has taken control. The game has changed; it's not correct to say something 'detrimental' (in a general sense) happened, or that it's become 'wrong'.

If zip, losing a chess game to me, grabs my head and starts a wrestling match, it's, in a limited way, 'detrimental' to the process of playing chess. But it's not, overall detrimental if we both enjoy the ensuing contest of speed and strength. It might be a welcome break!

If the person in, initially a sub role, at one point, and by arrangement, breaks her bonds, yells for her friends and they cuff the 'dom' to the radiator and piss on his head, that's indeed, in zip's words, a 'changed dynamic'-- but it not 'detrimental' in any general sense, and it might be a ball for all concerned.

I hope this clarifies things; some of my statements of my purely personal pov. appear to have been misread by some folks.

Let each person enjoy his or her kink!

 

[zipman]

<snip>
The dynamic of "topping from the bottom" can be very detrimental to a BDSM relationship, especially in the long run. Once you establish a dynamic of telling your Dom/me what to do, they begin to rely on it. Later, when you crave greater control, you may well find that you what you have is a Dom/me waiting for your next "suggestion." By then, it is often too difficult to change this dynamic.

Here I do not agree, though it may surprise some who think I
believe 'topping from the bottom' to be wrong. It's not wrong, it simply means the alleged 'bottom' has taken control. The game has changed; it's not correct to say something 'detrimental' (in a general sense) happened, or that it's become 'wrong'.

If zip, losing a chess game to me, grabs my head and starts a wrestling match, it's, in a limited way, 'detrimental' to the process of playing chess. But it's not, overall detrimental if we both enjoy the ensuing contest of speed and strength. It might be a welcome break!

If the person in, initially a sub role, at one point, and by arrangement, breaks her bonds, yells for her friends and they cuff the 'dom' to the radiator and piss on his head, that's indeed, in zip's words, a 'changed dynamic'-- but it not 'detrimental' in any general sense, and it might be a ball for all concerned.

I hope this clarifies things; some of my statements of my purely personal pov. appear to have been misread by some folks.

Let each person enjoy his or her kink!

While I agree with everything you said that I "snipped," here we are going to disagree.

Just to clarify, I did not say that "topping from the bottom" was wrong (which would be a judgement). I said that "topping from the bottom" can be very detrimental to a BDSM relationship, especially in the long run.

I am not saying that it can't be enjoyable, but that I believe it to be detrimental to the relationship and the dynamic of control and power exchange that are necessary.

If a sub "tops from the bottom," AND a Dom/me accepts this, then the sub will begin to expect that her suggestions or desires will always be met. The sub is then determining the activities that will take place. If a Dom/me allows this, then they will probably have a difficult time regaining the control in the relationship.

Again, I am talking about it being detrimental to the relationship - in the long run.

Each time a Dom/me allows a sub to "Top from the bottom" they are giving tacit approval of the sub dictating the dynamic. If a child is supposed to do their homework before watching television, and a parent allows this to happen once, it becomes that much harder to enforce it the next time, and of course a parent may decide to make an exception to the rule. However, if it became a pattern where the child just assumed that they can watch TV without doing their homework first, then it becomes that much harder for the parent to regain their control over the child. However, A BDSM relationship takes place between two adults, where age or parenthood cannot be used to regain control. Therefore, maintaining the power structure is even more important and it becomes more difficult to regain the control which is the essence of a BDSM relationship.

JMHO.

 

[rosco rathbone]

It's only "topping from the bottom" if the top lets themselves be topped, if you get my drift. Otherwise it's just suggestions, requests, attempts at manipulation; all of which are pretty much par for the course with the kind of strong-willed, sharp person who makes the only interesting partner.

 

[zipman]

It's only "topping from the bottom" if the top lets themselves be topped, if you get my drift. Otherwise it's just suggestions, requests, attempts at manipulation; all of which are pretty much par for the course with the kind of strong-willed, sharp person who makes the only interesting partner.

Exactly Roscoe! I don't blame a sub for trying, I too, have learned to expect this in some form or another. I blame the Dom/me for allowing it to happen.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Exactly Roscoe! I don't blame a sub for trying, I too, have learned to expect this in some form or another. I blame the Dom/me for allowing it to happen.

I assume that you mean you blame the top for allowing them to SUCCEED in manipulation, not for allowing them to TRY. Correct me if I am wrong. I think this is what Chele was getting at.

Ultimately, two people who can't come to some satisfactory balance of pleasurable power imbalance with needs still met...just won't last as partners.

One can always use the manipulation attempt to gain knowledge of the bottom's needs and work on fulfilling those in a subtle and controlled fashion, throwing in plenty of frustration and mindfuckery along the way. It's pretty much the same as vanilla fucking: at some point I realized that what women REALLY want (or at least the ones I kept ending up with) was to be fucked AS IF their needs didn't mean shit to me-and yet to have me know what they needed and give it to them even as I appeared to be using them for their holes.

 

[zipman]

I assume that you mean you blame the top for allowing them to SUCCEED in manipulation, not for allowing them to TRY. Correct me if I am wrong. I think this is what Chele was getting at.

Ultimately, two people who can't come to some satisfactory balance of pleasurable power imbalance with needs still met...just won't last as partners.

One can always use the manipulation attempt to gain knowledge of the bottom's needs and work on fulfilling those in a subtle and controlled fashion, throwing in plenty of frustration and mindfuckery along the way. It's pretty much the same as vanilla fucking: at some point I realized that what women REALLY want (or at least the ones I kept ending up with) was to be fucked AS IF their needs didn't mean shit to me-and yet to have me know what they needed and give it to them even as I appeared to be using them for their holes.

I absolutely agree 100% with this post. Every last word!


And I never thought I would say that about a Roscoe Rathbone post

 

[Ebonyfire]

Originally posted by slvjenn

As I read through a lot of posts around here (many from Ebonyfire) I wondered if it was actually possible for a man to submit to a woman fully. I don't mean that as a hit against her, please don't take it that way.

I took no offense. I see your point.



But I was trying to imagine myself trying in any way to top my BF. I mean, if it came down to it, he'd always be able to overpower me. So I was wondering if they were always topping from the bottom.....

THEN I started thinking that maybe they are the only ones who DON'T...Since at any time they COULD overpower most women, couldn't that actually be a more pure form of submission?


There are some archtypical Domme type (Amazon comes to mind), who enjoy the "take down" approach to the domination of men.

And some might like a physical struggle. Then there are others who strictly like the voluntary submission. It is not that I cannot fight, why would I? It does not serve My purpose. If a Domme does not want conflict but instead wants obedience like I do, it is my preference. It is not boring or stagnant, cause if it were I would not be able to keep a sub and I have long standing relationships with mine.

I do not know if it is pure, but it is what I work very hard to obtain.

It is totally different than the relationships that I see described by the male doms on this and other boards. I do not expect them to approve (and I do not care if they do) or understand how wonderful my relationships are.

No one is wrong or right, we have our ways and if we are successful then that is all that counts.

Male Doms and Female Dommes have different agendas. Hell, there are different agendas between Dom to Dom and Domme to Domme.

anyway, I see a lot of talk about the sub being ready to go further, or to try something, but little about doms, and their readiness level.

Everyone always says how you should have an experienced dom and all of that..but the fact is that they have to get that experience someplace. So some sub has to be under a dom with less than desirable experience levels.


I would say that it is more important to have a mature Dom/me. Meaning, no matter how much experience you have, you are bound to meet someone who has more. So a Dom/me and sub has to have to maturity to recognize their own limitations and deal with them in an appropriate way.

I posted that I have a sub that has much more experience than I do and he and I both know it. In our talks, we discussed it freely. I also defined a ritual for his giving me suggestions, and information. Depending on what it is, I file it for future reference or I give him permission to do what is necessary.

It just makes good sense for a Dom/me to use her subs skills to the relationship's best advantage.

I'm one of those subs. So that is why I came here asking what I did. I don't want to top from the bottom. But I do want my chosen dom to grow. If wanting that and encouraging that is wrong, then so be it. Maybe it is a form of TFTB.

I personally like the fact that my submissive cares enough about our relationship to suggest ways of improving it. That is why I have some of the communication rituals to facilitate this.

 

[zipman]

Great post Eb!

I just want to add that I find mental domination to be the most rewarding aspect of my play. I find bending someone to your will to be much more erotic than physical force.

Even if I do use physical force, it is when I want to and my sub does not resist. It is not a matter of a physical struggle which I will win because I am a man, but a way of demonstrating my control. This can be as subtle as grabbing her hair and pulling her face to my cock or flipping her over to take her ass.

The point is that she submits to all of these, not because I am physically stronger, but because of her desire to please me.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Great post Eb!

I just want to add that I find mental domination to be the most rewarding aspect of my play. I find bending someone to your will to be much more erotic than physical force.

Even if I do use physical force, it is when I want to and my sub does not resist. It is not a matter of a physical struggle which I will win because I am a man, but a way of demonstrating my control. This can be as subtle as grabbing her hair and pulling her face to my cock or flipping her over to take her ass.

The point is that she submits to all of these, not because I am physically stronger, but because of her desire to please me.

I could not post it better, zip.

Most men are inately stronger than women, especially in the upper body.

Most of the male subs I know can overpower their Domme, but they refrain from it because they want to please, they want to submit, obey. They willingly transferred some of their power to their Domme and they are happy in their choice. The feelings that come over you when you look that them and see that they truly have no reservation, well it is truly a powerful thing.

 

[Ebonyfire]

From the Questions to Dominants thread

I think that this statement from Shadowsdream has a lot of truth in it.


http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?postid=3679083#post3679083

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: From the Questions to Dominants thread

I think that this statement from Shadowsdream has a lot of truth in it.


http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?postid=3679083#post3679083

These two paragraphs say it all.

A Dom/me that does not understand Her/His self will be unable to be consistent, fair minded, honest, sincere, and in control.

A submissive without the depth of self knowledge or the sincere quest to be taken into the CARING control of a Dominant they feel is worthy of molding their future will continually question the obvious.

 

[Pure]

Hi Zipman,

Thanks for your comments and pov. I seem to have trouble getting my own across, of clarifying the difference between saying: This is what a sub does, insofar as s/he's acting like one AND This is what X who calls him or herself a sub should do in their relationship with their SO.

You say

I said that "topping from the bottom" can be very detrimental to a BDSM relationship, especially in the long run.

I saw that.


I am not saying that it can't be enjoyable, but that I believe it to be detrimental to the relationship and the dynamic of control and power exchange that are necessary.

If a sub "tops from the bottom," AND a Dom/me accepts this, then the sub will begin to expect that her suggestions or desires will always be met. The sub is then determining the activities that will take place. If a Dom/me allows this, then they will probably have a difficult time regaining the control in the relationship.

Again, I am talking about it being detrimental to the relationship - in the long run.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but yes, if an alleged sub begins
'determining' or controlling what takes place (and the dom/me allows it or can't prevent it), that is 'detrimental' to-- i.e., undermines--the dom's control. It's a separate point, however, if we want to say 'detrimental' to the relationship, suggesting that the relationship has been harmed , though it has indeed changed form.

To get to your example, which is of a long term erosion of control
(mine was of a sudden loss of control).


Each time a Dom/me allows a sub to "Top from the bottom" they are giving tacit approval of the sub dictating the dynamic. If a child is supposed to do their homework before watching television, and a parent allows this to happen once, it becomes that much harder to enforce it the next time, and of course a parent may decide to make an exception to the rule. However, if it became a pattern where the child just assumed that they can watch TV without doing their homework first, then it becomes that much harder for the parent to regain their control over the child. However, A BDSM relationship takes place between two adults, where age or parenthood cannot be used to regain control. Therefore, maintaining the power structure is even more important and it becomes more difficult to regain the control which is the essence of a BDSM relationship.

The trouble with your parent child example--which I have no problem with, in itself-- is that we expect a parent to retain control of children and most 'experts' aren't keen on children dictating how a family is run. It's because of that that we could say the parents' allowing unlimited TV etc. is detrimental to the family, undermines their parenting, etc.

One need only change the example slightly to see the issue. Had you said the 'child' was a teen 17 years old, and you told me she was increasingly "allowed to go out for the evening without asking first and saying what time she'd be back" then it's not clear anything untoward is happening, that something 'detrimental' to family, or even to 'parenting' is occurring. Parenting simply assumes new forms as children near adulthood.

In a bdsm case with adults, there are no prior 'forms' to be upheld, and the situation is even more clearcut, as to changes. There is no reason to put a positive or negative valence to them.

Suppose, over time dom/me A increasingly 'allows' --or gives way to--sub B's efforts to determine things. B starts by saying how long a whipping should last, but over time starts determining IF a whipping should occur. Indeed, over further time, B brings in the practice that when A makes a serious error in household management, A will be whipped by B!

Are B's acts, in your terms, 'detrimental to the bdsm relationship'.
Well, they've undercut A's efforts to control. They re 'detrimental'
to A's continued control of that relationship.

But in a broader sense, the relationship may well have benefitted, and it's arguable that what's emerged is an equally good (for the parties) and 'valid' bdsm relationship. Its form has simply changed. And not necessarily through anything untoward, or any skullduggery.

A new dom has emerged. A time to celebrate!

As the crowds say, "The King is dead. Long live the King!"

 

[zipman]

<snip>
Suppose, over time dom/me A increasingly 'allows' --or gives way to--sub B's efforts to determine things. B starts by saying how long a whipping should last, but over time starts determining IF a whipping should occur. Indeed, over further time, B brings in the practice that when A makes a serious error in household management, A will be whipped by B!

Are B's acts, in your terms, 'detrimental to the bdsm relationship'.
Well, they've uncut A's efforts to control. They are 'detrimental'
to A's continued control of that relationship.

But in a broader sense, the relationship may well have benefitted, and it's arguable that what's emerged is an equally good (for the parties) and 'valid' bdsm relationship. Its form has simply changed. And not necessarily through anything untoward, or any skullduggery.

A new dom has emerged. A time to celebrate!

As the crowds say, "The King is dead. Long live the King!"

<snip>

I agree with all the discussion that I snipped out!

I now understand your point, which is a valid one. However, I think that a clear discussion between the two would quickly determine whether or not a "switch" would be best. There are few downsides to having that kind of direct conversation.

But for each time that the situation in your example "yields a new king" I think there will be a lot more damaged relationships. This is JMHO. I think clear conversation is always better than allowing a sub to top from the bottom.


Eb - great posts from Shadowsdream! They do put it quite well.

 

[d7dlp0]

I know I already know the answer, but...

I have been in & out of a relationship with the same woman over the last 5 years. During one of the"negative' periods, she realized her yearning to be spanked. She met someone via the internet and, luckily, she got lucky in finding someone who seems to be honest as opposed to finding her dead in a hotel room somewhere. Since, she has brought me in to this new world and I embraced it finding I enjoyed spanking her and providing her with the discipline I always knew she needed anayway.

Here's my problem or our problem to be more correct:

Her interactions with this other person continue and I know they have communicated their expectations, desires, etc.. with each other for a more fulfilling experience. I have asked her several times to do the same with me because I truly want to be able to provide her with the maximum amount of pleasure I possibly can. But she hasn't come forth and this discussion has yet to take place between us. Susequently, being fairly new to this, my only feedback indicating i'm on the right path is her realtime responses to my actions during our sessions. I know the answer is communicate...communicate...communicate, but I'm not sure (or telling myself I'm not sure) what to think about her lack of communication. I assume she wants me involved or I wouldn't writing this in the first place, but why does she limit me? Could it be that I might jeopardize her realtionship with the other person by eventually being able to fullfill all her desires?

I just dunno.....

I would like to know what others think.

Thanks,
D7dlp0

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: I know I already know the answer, but...

I assume she wants me involved or I wouldn't writing this in the first place, but why does she limit me? Could it be that I might jeopardize her realtionship with the other person by eventually being able to fullfill all her desires?

I had to think about this one a bit.

I have a few thoughts.

1. What is the nature of your relationship? Are you her primary or is this other person her primary?

It makes a difference. You might want to sit down with her and define the relationship between you. Ask her what does she want with you?

But I warn you, be prepared to hear something you may not want to hear (just in case).

It is better to know the truth.

It sounds like you do not know where you stand with her. Correct me if I am wrong.

Eb

 

[d7dlp0]

Eb,

You are absolutely correct. As far as this particular facet of our relationship, he is the primary as I'm just learning and I did know that already. Don't necessarily like it, though. But like I said, this all came about during a very low period in our overall relationship. All else, we are a couple. Getting her to sit down and talk about it is what I've been asking for and am getting no real response.

Thanks,
D7dlp0

 

[Ebonyfire]

Eb,

You are absolutely correct. As far as this particular facet of our relationship, he is the primary as I'm just learning and I did know that already. Don't necessarily like it, though. But like I said, this all came about during a very low period in our overall relationship. All else, we are a couple. Getting her to sit down and talk about it is what I've been asking for and am getting no real response.

Thanks,
D7dlp0

What if you ask her out to dinner, preferably to a place that is not too loud so that you can discuss things. She might be more apt to discuss things in a neutral environment.

It may or may not work, depending if she is willing to discuss things or not.

Eb

 

[d7dlp0]

I will try something like that.... Can't hurt, til afterwards anyway. Eb, I truly appreciate your trying to understand and willingness to help. I'll let you know what happens.

 

[Pure]

d7dlp0 said


Susequently, being fairly new to this, my only feedback indicating i'm on the right path is her realtime responses to my actions during our sessions. I know the answer is communicate...communicate...communicate, but I'm not sure (or telling myself I'm not sure) what to think about her lack of communication. I assume she wants me involved or I wouldn't writing this in the first place, but why does she limit me? Could it be that I might jeopardize her realtionship with the other person by eventually being able to fullfill all her desires?

Sounds like Eb is asking the right questions. And to be frank it appear she make the relationship (sexual) with you secondary.

I've been in those shoes, and although the questions 'why?' come up, they really don't matter except those 1/100 cases where it's some simple answer like your chewing tobacco!
It's unclear if 'Tell me why...' in any setting is going to work in that it's pretty likely your feeling might be 'spared' is she likes you.

So.... all you have to go on is her actions. If someone spends too little time, or not the right sort of time, having probed a little to see if there's an exact grievance or 'wrong' or failing you need to draw the obvious conclusion, and more importantly arrange your life in a corresponding manner---i.e. to give her secondary importance, in the given areas (sex?) as well. Which of course requires some attention to developing your own new primary, else there will always be an 'inbalance' in that you want something more and that's not how the other feels.

My experience is that even where the other does try to answer 'why?' they may not even know. So you might not either. But always go by actions. Best of luck.

 

[d7dlp0]

Pure,

Thank you for a very savvy response. However, although I may not have worded it quite right, my question to her is really a "what" question with the "why" question being optional.

Let me clarify; While I realize that the exploration is half the fun, what I wanted to know from her is what her expectations, desires, wants, likes, dislikes, etc... were so I can be sure that I can do my damndest to launch her into high orbit when the time comes; pardon the pun. I don't think that is an unreasonable or unfair request.

However, while I am WONDERING "why' she won't do that, I have not hammered her to answer the "why" question. Our interactions sexually are satisfying but, it just does not make sense to me why anyone would want to hinder growth instead of reap its rewards. I can understand that I might not be the primary at this point in time. Her discovery came about when we were basically apart and I don't really have the experience to speak of, yet. But, again, I have to wonder, "If we're gonna do it, why not do it right?" I have to think that for every forward step I make towards being able to offer her one-stop shopping, it's also one step backwards for her "other" relationship as being special. No other facet of our relationship is like this.

Love, relationship what ever the Nom Du Jour, it certainly has my vote as the most pleasurable, fucked-up, necessary and unnecessary force in the universe.

 

[Hecate]

Spontaneous thoughts, not very refined...

Her not helping you to improve you pleasurimng her in the sexual field may be due to

1.) if you get "as pleasant" as her other play pal, then she will not have another excuse to have that "second serving" - and thus not an excuse towards you, but as well towards herself. That would mean that if she had told you a long time ago what it was she wanted, there never would have been any need - and thus justification - to involve someone else. So basically it could be a case of "belatedly feeling guilty if it is proven it could have worked with you" and not wanting to admit even to herself, let alone you.


2.) It is often much easier to open up about your kinks that you in one way or other consider abbysmal and perverte to someone those are all you share with as opposed to someone you share your "everyday" life with - you know, the meals, the decisions about which tootpaste to get and if the money will be sufficient at the end of the months. At times we do indeed have this "split personality" feeling between functioning respectable women and sex-crazed kinky sluts. (ok, ok, I am maybe a bit exaggerating here *chuckles*) - so as you are mainly making part of one world there may indeed - conscious or even subconscious - some reluctance on her part to mix those worlds as they are not corresponding but often mentally contradicting images of a shared personality the lady in question may not even want to face herself.


3.) It makes a lot of difference of you knowing about Nr. 2 in her life and tolerating it compared to her discussing the intimate details of their time together with you. And since he is her "learning ground" her teaching you what she just learned may have that connotation for her. Whether or not you feel that way is secondary, but I can see where she would feel awkward revealing newfound pleasures and likes, knowing perfectly well you know exactly how she found out about them ....




That much for possible reasons why she might not be forthcoming with educational information in your direction - simply feels awkward.
Do I have any solution as to how to overcome those reservations .... uhm , sorry, nope, have been "guilty" of all of them in one way or other and failed overcoming even though I was aware of what pattern I was trapped in.


(not sure if that made any sense but hell, have a female try to explain female logic - and don't anyone dare and tell me that is an oxymoron! *stern Dommely look*)


edited at least the most appalling typos I hope!

 

[Ebonyfire]

I will try something like that.... Can't hurt, til afterwards anyway. Eb, I truly appreciate your trying to understand and willingness to help. I'll let you know what happens.

You are very welcome. I would like to find out what happens, if it is not too intrusive.

And like Pure says she may not even be able to verbalize why she feels the way she does.

But the more information you have the more you will be able to decide the best path for you.

Good luck & I hope you will keep posting.

Eb

 

[d7dlp0]

Hecate,

Thank you!. I think your responses, especially #2, have, so far, struck the chords closest to how I feel. Regarding #3, I have been careful to ask in a way...well, that ISN't T "Tell me what you & him do." but rather "What would make you feel good?". Of course, you are right I would deduce that her realtionship with him is where it came from, therefore there still may be a reluctance.

I know there is no Silver Bullet answer, Relationship Formulae One-Size-Fits-All solution. We all know know..."Anything goes in love & war" and there are no right answers, for the most part. BUT......I want to thank all of you for your feedback. Just to be able to talk to folks about it helps even if a resolution isn't forthcoming.

Thanks again,
D7dlp0