America's not what she used to be.

4th of July Hoopla...

'Laurel' is right. The "good ole days" were not so good for many, many people. Our minds tend to forget that, maybe because thinking about pleasantries is more... well, "pleasant."
After all the 4th of July hoopla has died down, after all the holiday sales have exhausted the mercenary urge to capitalize on the consumer public's socially ingrained impulse to "buy".. "buy".. "buy"... It's important to remember that america is very much like every other country...
Hell, americans COME from every other country. As such, and like people everywhere, we are flawed but mostly lovable.... and full of promise. That's how one might describe us.
A brilliant thinker & organizer once noted:
"Philosophers have only described the world; The point, however, is to change it."
And as Sheryl Crow sings, "I think the change... would do you good."
 
Thomas Jefferson (cue the brass band, its almost the 4th) probably had it right for what can be great in America and what our biggest threat :"An educated citizenry is safe and well defended."

If we continue to value education and appreciate diversity as a virtue instead of as a threat, we are made in the shade. We have the incredible good fortune to have been guided by several deep thinkers who were not idealogues or religious zealots but instead focused on allowing individual freedoms and opportunity. When we give in to the fearmongers who try to demonize one group or another, we are in big trouble.

My favorite Jefferson quote was in today's paper ( I won't pretend to have remembered all of these): "Every difference of opinion is not a difference in principle"
 
What is the meaning of this icon? BJ?

I'm definitely a supporter of capitalism. I don't believe in state-sponsored health care or other subsidies - I think the private sector should take on those responsibilities.

That is SOOOOOOOO right wing it makes me shudder. You'd have loved Margaret Thatcher (a.k.a The Iron Lady, a.k.a Bitch Queen from Hell)

Laurel as I said in my previous post, I am not interested in bashing America. I said that I'm sure its a great place to live. My point was that it sounds incredibly childish and arrogant to run around saying how your house is better than all the other houses in the street. We've got our ups and downs just as you, its just that those ups and downs are different.

Now, can we call a truce on this US-Rest of the World thing? I'm sure we can come back to this in a few months!
 
I don't know if Laurel's view on health care is "SOOOOOOOO right wing", it sounds more like common sense to me.

The reason health care costs are so blatantly inflated is because the entire industry is subsidized by the government and the insurance companies. There is NO competition among health care providers. There is NO reason for a health care provider to concern itself with providing affordable service to anyone.

Government should only exist to provide those services necessary for the protection of it's citizens - or to provide those services that cannot possibly be provided by private enterprise. It makes perfect sense for the government to build highways - it makes absolutely no sense for the government to involve itself in providing health care.

If it wasn't so damn late I'd do a better job of explaining this. Maybe next time.
 
My, my, how clever!

That post was so weak that I'm not surprised you had to hide behind anonymity.
 
Ahem! But didn't the US just come 37th in the World Health Organisation world rankings for health systems. I believe it was the "fairness" attribute that let you down. Funny that isn't it. Or is it just common sense that the state of your health should depend on the size of your pocket.
 
"Bored to Death" huh. Well you know what that means. I'm going to have to fuck your rotting corpse because I am necrophilia obsessed freak.
 
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..HUh?

You said something?....OK, Sounds about right....ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzz
 
What you will find, Flagg, is that the people in this country who do not have access to health care coverage are those who work for a living, but either are not provided access to health insurance by their employer - or are not provided access to affordable health insurance by their employer. The poorest people in this nation are able to receive health benefits that are provided by the government.

So it's not a matter of the size of your wallet at all.

Once again, if health care providers were required to work within a competitive system, that great mass of Americans who work for a living and are unable to receive health insurance benefits would be the very segment of the population that the health care providers would have to target to make themselves competitive within the market place.

Oh, and btw, nice little WHO stat you got their Flagg. Nothing like getting your information from unbiased sources. Maybe next you can give us some info on how Castro rates American tobacco production.
 
My God, I can't believe you are for real. What part of your brain thinks you can compare the WHO with Castro? The WHO is an international organisation that is not linked with any specific country. Their report was probably the singular most comprehensive piece of research into international health systems ever published.
You are nothing but arrogant to slur it simply because it doesn't rate your "great" country very highly when it comes to health. Your remark was pathetic and only proves to show how brainwashed and utterly naive and singular you are.

That aside - lets get back to health. Now lets see if you can follow this:

Private Sector/Capitalist Organisation - Seeks to make profit.

Health - Undeniable human right to have access to

Common Sense - previous two simply canm't go together.
 
I don't particularly give a crap where the WHO rates anything. Anyone who isn't aware of the anti-American bias of the WHO and various other arms of the UN is naive beyond comprehension.

Oh, and speaking of anti-American bias. It's pretty obvious where you stand, Flagg. I feel like a fucking idiot for actually wasting my time trying to expain anything to you.

It's a mistake I won't make again.
 
That is SOOOOOOOO right wing it makes me shudder. You'd have loved Margaret Thatcher (a.k.a The Iron Lady, a.k.a Bitch Queen from Hell)

LMFAO! That's the first time I've ever been accused of being right-wing in my entire life. I'm pro-gun control, pro-choice, pro-porn, pro-animal rights, anti-death penalty, pro-women, pro-minorities... I've been called many many things, but not right wing. If my suggestion that Britain's solutions in regards to health care might not be the absolute correct solution for everyone on the planet offends you, then perhaps you may want to take off the cultural blinders and have a look outside of Britain.

What if - hypothetically, of course - privatization of health care DOES work? What if your way isn't always the only way, but one of many ways to do things? Why does there have to be one solution - yours - and everything else is wrong, wrong, wrong? This is an attitude that bothers me. It bothers me when I see it in the Christian right, and it bothers me when I see it in the PETA/NOW left. The minute we stop considering other options - when we stop actually listening to the opposing side - is the minute we stop thinking. It takes no courage - and not much brains - to blindly bash away at a perceived opponent. It takes great courage and a commitment to truth to actually hear what others have to say, and to consider that maybe - just maybe - they might be right.

As far as the US vs. rest of world thing goes, I have nothing but positive things to say about Britain and other parts of the world. If I've said "The US Rules! Everywhere else sucks!" anywhere in this thread, or indeed on this board, then I would owe all Brits an apology. But I haven't, and I won't. I stated that the US, like everywhere else, has its good points and its bad points. Like I said before, take a look into your own country's history. If you can do so and say with a straight face that you are proud of everything Britain has done, and that you agree with every policy that your government makes, then you have the right to stomp on me for the actions of my government. Otherwise, you have to admit that I, like yourself, am an ordinary citizen subjected to the laws of my country, not a diabolical Margaret Thatcher incarnate.

Like I said before, yelling at me because of the policies my government chooses to implement is a bit silly. I was born here, just like you were born there. I'm not a jingoistic flag-waving fanatic moron, no matter how you try to paint me. It might make you feel better if I said how much I despised my own country, but it would be a lie. The US has its problems - like every other country on this planet - but it's still an all right place to call home. No, we don't have all the answers, but neither do you. :)

All right now... I'm gonna go to bed now. I now call a truce, on the condition that Flagg gives me a BIIIGGGG wet kiss on my imperialistic, flag-waving forehead. ;)
 
This is incredibly frustrating. I've been trying to say the same thing all along! Take a look at the posts:

*I'm sure America is a great place to live but so is Britain, France, Germany and most other developped countries.

*Laurel as I said in my previous post, I am not interested in bashing America. I said that I'm sure its a great place to live.

*We've got our ups and downs just as you, its just that those ups and downs are different.

Its a shame that people get so sensitive. It may have been a bit unfair to call you right wing Laurel. But you must understand that this is because we operate with a different set of values. Over here talking about privatisation (particularily of the health service) will instantly brand you as right wing. Privatisation was particluarily rife under the reign of Thatcher and we're still suffering the consequences now. Hopefully this will help explain that comment.

Anyway, I agree in having a truce as I said before. Talking about politics and religion is always the best way to make enemies particularily when talking to tories and christians!

Lasher - I don't give a fuck about this anymore. You can bear a grudge if you like but I won't.
 
Umm... didn't you forget something, Flagg?

You know, my kiss?




C'mon now, don't wimp out...
 
If only it could be true...

Goodness me! How could I forget! That must be the most tempting offer I've had all week! One very slurpy british kiss coming up...

kiss.gif


Sorry, a bit wet I know. I just couldn't help drooling...

[Edited by Flagg on 07-04-2000 at 04:10 AM]
 
< wipes cheek >

I'm not wiping it off - I'm rubbing it in!

(always works for my nieces)
 
The United Nations recently named Canada as the best country in the world to live in yet again ... I disagree... partly because the United Nations said so, how often are they right about anything... but mostly because I think the USA is the greatest country in the world. Right now and possibly in all of history.

Now don't get me wrong I am a loyal canuck but that doesn't mean i'm blind. And sure there are a hell of a lot of things wrong down there but there is far more thats good than bad.

The biggest and best of these is the personal freedom you enjoy. Sure you have got wacko's saying that the goverment is trampling on them. They should try living here or just about any country in Europe and see just how good they have it.

Heres the deal.

You guys institute universal health care, promise to work on your manners abroad, your grammer and geography skills at home and arange with the big breweries to bump up their alcohol content to 5% or more and we'll join up. Oh yeah... I suppose you'll want some compensation for taking Quebec and Toronto under your wing so I guess we will add 5 million gallons of maple syrup and a promise that the rest of us are not like them.

God! I can't wait to say y'all and dollah and wassup and learn to speak american

Happy fourth guys
 
Sober now, and lugging in the wine

Here's a case of the chardonnay -- Glass Mountain '98. Also, a very large bottle of ibuprofen, it will be needed.

A very happy Fourth, to everyone . . . I'm now going to begin on the beer. Sam Adams . . .
 
CL...if I was a UN peacekeeper could I escort you across the street???

just some background info on the WHO report...it stated that the US is great at "heroic" care(emergency and such) but this is very costly as anyone who has visited an emergency room will know....it is in the area of preventative medicine that we lag behind....I think this is true simply because our insurance system pays in full for emergency room visits and balks at paying for checkups and well care...so little Joey gets sick and Mom and Dad rush him off to the ER after waiting to see if it will pass...what could have been taken care of at minimal cost has now escalated.

I know as I have done this...my children are at present without health insurance of any kind...I simply cannot afford it. My employer has chosen to carry insurance that would cost me 500 dollars a month out of my pocket for family coverage....walking the tightrope I am...Hope it doesn't get windy....
 
Thumper said:
My employer has chosen to carry insurance that would cost me 500 dollars a month out of my pocket for family coverage....walking the tightrope I am...Hope it doesn't get windy....

500 a month? That's quite a bite. I would hope the exam tables would have freshly laundered silk sheets and the stethiscopes are warm. Does your employer suppliment any of the cost? I'm sorry, but that just doesn't sound right. My company pays about 1/2 or 2/3 of my coverage for my family, with my cost at about 150 per month.

It might be the thing to look on your own. There are several plans out there that could get you either minimal or reasonable coverage without it breaking the bank.

Best of luck

e2c
 
Of course, Thumper . . . but we'll hope that never happens.

I, myself, am without insurance, save some piddly student coverage from school. I haven't had any since my last regular job. I couldn't maintain the $400+ monthly premiums through COBRA, and decided that I'd just have to take care of myself.

Amazingly, I find myself a lot healthier, though that may just be a result of no workplace stress.
 
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