anyone like to self harm?

[ghosst_K&H]

Every psycologist whose ever talked to me either brings up pointless things like my childhood or goes on about depression.

Just how many psycologists have you been to?

 

[sunfox]

Have you noticed their need to SI less when play is regular? Just wondering.

I'll address this for me, though I'm interested to see if Netzach's girls feel the same way as I do...

It doesn't matter if I'm getting lots of BDSM time in, as regards to SI, if I'm still stressed outside of it. I may not feel like cutting during or after a heavy spanking or pain session, because as was said before, I've got enough endorphins/seratonin to keep me sedate for a while. But if I'm stressed, it doesn't go away with the pain play, and the SI is related to my internal stress level, not to my pleasure or fulfillment in our BDSM relationship.

It's a me thing.. and there is nothing that C can do directly to ease it for me. I have to handle it personally. As Etoile mentioned.. I haven't cut in a very long time, though I will sometimes deliberately aggravate a bruise or a cut from a dog plowing into me outside to make it hurt worse when I'm feeling badly. But the need to SI is always there. I have just chosen not to directly give in to it for a while.

 

[Netzach]

That's probably pretty consistent with the people I know.

BDSM is, overall, a more up, positive thing for them, it's something they are likely to turn to to release a cathartic response yet in a sort of joyous way, it's not a place to hang out in when in the deep dark hole. So, whether it's related or not I can't tell, really, KC, I just know that when I've played with them, SI and intense depression isn't really where they are at, though energy, pain, and catharsis can still all be part of it.

 

[Marquis]

I have never cut, but I have mutilated myself in the past and I know it has been during times of serious depression. I also tend to put myself in dangerous situations; get into fights I know I cannot win or take crazy risks with my health when I am depressed. We do these things to make ourselves feel more alive, but if we don't stop and ask ourselves why we need to prove it at all, we may end up proving our darkest suspicion true. That we are not alive at all.

 

[shy slave]

I'd have to disagree with several people who call it a form of mental illness. Many psycologists believe they know EVERYTHING while the fact of the matter is that they know jack shit. Every psycologist whose ever talked to me either brings up pointless things like my childhood or goes on about depression. It's quite funny actually people seem to get off being inflicted with pain that others give them but get upset if they find out if someone does it to themselves. Is it perhaps equalivant to masterbation, they believed that was once a sign of mental illness you know.

I personally like women giving me pain, cutting me, beating me, torturing while I am helplessly in her grasp.

However sometimes inflicting it on the self is fun as well, I fail to see whats wrong with this. BTW homosexuality, lesbianism is also considered a mental illness by some professionals. Maybe some people need medication for that as well.

Its this kind of 'blurt out' statement that makes me agree with Miss Karen.
I have worked with people who SI and they talk of the release and control it gives them.
I know many people on ther threads have been honest and candid about their involvement with SI.
Jeffrey if you were to do a search you would see that many people here have discussed why it works or has worked for them. You would also note they see and understand the dangers of SI not dismiss them.

As a sum up: For some people its a way of taking back control of their lives; for others its a release from emotional pain.
I have met many women who have found their way into the BDSM community who SI. BDSM gives them a way of normalising an aspect of their lives that is still considered a hidden or taboo subject.
SI is a difficult subject to discuss in r/l or online as it is so personal as to the reasoning behind why people choose to do it.

 

[shy slave]

Jeffrey I want you to show this sentence to four people that you trust and care about you and tell me what they say.

Marquis i hope he takes your advice but i am fairly sure he won't x

 

[orangeangel]

yes I do

 

[Etoile]

yes I do

I hear you collect stamps, too.

 

[Ucellis]

i do but rarely now.

 

[Etoile]

i do but rarely now.

You do self-harm, or you like to?

 

[blackwatch1881]

Have you noticed their need to SI less when play is regular? Just wondering.

Yes... very much so, also I'm into more extreme pain, receiving that is. Whether thats connected or not I dont know.

 

[blackwatch1881]

but maybe thats just me anyway... Ive not done it for a good 6 months which is a record for my since I started, but Ive rarely been doing any D/s. But before when I did D/s the urge never seemed to be there.

There is no connection though, at least not for me. the only time I used to cut was in extremely angry/hurt/depressed times. not just any ol' time that I felt I'd make a nice pattern.

Just to add I'm extremely ashamed of the scars I have, they are nothing to be proud of.

 

[MissTaken]

. Every psycologist whose ever talked to me either brings up pointless things like my childhood or goes on about depression.

If every one of the pyschologists you have seen seem to be saying the same thing, perhaps you should give it some thought? Listen a bit?

Or not...

In any event, pain from despair doesn't have a place in my interpretation of BDSM. Pain used for pleasure, to entice the senses, does. But that is MY way...it may not be yours or anyone else's.

Self mutilation is not, in and of itself, a mental illness, nor is anyone suggesting that. However, self mutilation CAN be a symptom of mental illness, especially in the form of depression.

Self mutilation and pain CAN be a source of intense pleasure.

This is a very grey area for discussion. The lines cross quite easily. There are NO definites, templates, or universal codes concerning what Etoile refers to as SI.



Could someone bump Etoile's thread concerning depression? It was a good conversation and I am terrible with the search function.

 

[Etoile]

Well, so much for that. The last time I had done SI was around Xmas (all that holiday stress) but prior to that I hadn't done it in at least a year. Now I've started the count over as of last night. Pity.

A bit sore from it, too. Ouch. See, hurting yourself out of despair is not fun. I enjoy pain play as much as the next person, but I don't get any joy from inflicting it on myself. I do it because I hate myself, not because it's pleasurable. I can't see how it would ever be.

 

[Pure]

Self cutting: Illness or intense pastime

Sweet Dommes said,

//All other issues that I may have with you aside, this is typically a sign of mental illness. I'm not saying this to be mean or anything, but really - cutting is often a sign of depression and/or other mental instability.... a way for the cutter to create physically the pain that they feel emotionally. Doing it because you are craving it from someone else (being a masochist, as I believe you to be, this could be why you do it), is one thing, but in general, it's not a good thing.//

jeffrey sub replied:

Whats your point? We're all mentally ill to one extent or another, whose to say what is illness and why limit such things in categorys. Why not expand the mind and explore how much pain we're capable of inflicting upon ourselves and how far we're capable of going. Pain and pleasure aren't so seperate as we'd like to think.

I believe inflicting wounds upon ourselves is hardly a bad thing but rather can be a blessing. It allows one to explore ourselves and understand why we exist in the world.

Etoile said,

//Personally, I'd rather not see this discussed here. Self injury - cutting is only one form - is not related to BDSM. It's unhealthy, it's a sign of other issues, and it's not sexual.//

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffreysub
Whats your point? We're all mentally ill to one extent or another, whose to say what is illness and why limit such things in categorys.


Etoile, said,
//Yeah yeah, we're all mentally ill. But an interest in BDSM is no longer considered a mental illness, and SI is a symptom of mental illness. Any such bullshit about "expanding the mind" is just looking for an excuse to practice something that is an indication of help being needed//.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffreysub
I believe inflicting wounds upon ourselves is hardly a bad thing but rather can be a blessing. It allows one to explore ourselves and understand why we exist in the world.

Etoile said,

//No way. Blessing, my ass. People die as a result of SI. You're not exploring yourself by cutting, you're harming the earthly vessel in which your consciousness resides. If you want to explore yourself, try taking up meditation or journaling.//

====
I don't see a common framework, here. Anyone seen "Whose Life is it anyway.?"

At an abstract level, I have to give the edge to jeffrey, since the issues of health and illness raised by Etoile are far from clear. The shrinks like the term 'mental disorder,' btw, but does it apply to everyone who wants to kill themselves or do something very dangerous? I believe not, at least according to the shrinks.

Ever seen "Leaving Las Vegas" Etoile? Would that not be sickness, in your frame? Yet one point is to appreciate the fellow's right, as the g.f. (Shue) does.

In practical terms, yes, dommes, marquis, etc. there is a link to depression. But then we have to ask about the alleged 'mental illness' of depression. Is it always to be treated by doctors?

I think Jeffrey you might ask, a) how much you want to live, if you do; b) what makes life worth living, if anything.

We don't have an accurate objective account of what danger you're in. But if it is a large amount, one might ask if you're prepared not to go on living?

We also don't know how accurate your judgements of danger might be. You might want to check into that. For instance, is a 1/2 in deep cut in a certain area, a grave danger?

In practice, then, Jeff, though you have a right to harm yourself, I slightly side with Marquis in that one wants to know of your lucidity and mental balance. We lean that way, since, in the short run, most of us, in an emergency with a dying person assume that s/he's made a mistake and wants to live (or will, afte settling down). The same applies here. I guess it's erring on the side of caution.

 

[Etoile]

At an abstract level, I have to give the edge to jeffrey, since the issues of health and illness raised by Etoile are far from clear. The shrinks like the term 'mental disorder,' btw, but does it apply to everyone who wants to kill themselves or do something very dangerous? I believe not, at least according to the shrinks.

Ever seen "Leaving Las Vegas" Etoile? Would that not be sickness, in your frame? Yet one point is to appreciate the fellow's right, as the g.f. (Shue) does.

The issues are far from clear? Forgive me, but the issues are all quite clear. Medical and therapeutic professionals - and crime profilers - tend to agree that self-harm is an indicator of distress.

No, not everyone who wants to do something dangerous has a mental disorder - witness stuntpersons for the movies. But unless you've got a terminal disease and need to call Dr. Kevorkian, wanting to kill yourself means something is wrong. The only other instances I can think of are ancient Latin American cultures where some people who were selected for sacrifice went willingly, and terrorists who believe that their act of terrorism is a gateway to heaven.

No, I have never seen Leaving Las Vegas. Sorry I can't understand your reference.

 

[thedig]

It makes me sad to see this being written about. I work in a state hospital and care for several patients who do this type of tension release and it just upsets me to think what they are doing to their bodies. Most of the people who I have worked with are very beautiful people but are scared by traumatic things that have happened to them in the past or at the present time. I want to take each one of the patients and open their eyes and make them look at themselves afetr they do this. I feel maybe they might snap out of it but most don't. This person really does need help from a person who knows about this type of behavior and that is willing to take the time to help the perosn. Well that is my two cents if you want to know more just ask.

 

[sunfox]

But unless you've got a terminal disease and need to call Dr. Kevorkian, wanting to kill yourself means something is wrong.

I'd just like to add here in response to both Etoile and thedig...

Not every person who does SI intends to kill themselves, or is suicidal even in the smallest way, and I feel that's a rather important distinction to make. Cutting that is tension release, at least, in the method that I have done for a good portion of my life, is barely a few layers of skin deep in fleshy areas. Some pain, some blood... no possibility of nerve/muscle damage, and very little chance of nicking a vein or an artery. I don't take a huge meat cleaver and have at my limbs.. I take a razorblade and cut a line in an arm or leg that is thin and heals usually without a scar.

So while I agree with the above assertion, I don't feel it's necessarily relevant to all SI, or even to a large number of them, and shouldn't be assumed in every case.

 

[Marquis]

Excellent post Pure.

We have previously discussed my choice to put myself at risk for suicide by refusing medication, so I would be a hypocrite to tell Jeffrey that he had an obligation to choose his health over his happiness. However, that does not mean I am going to give him reassurance that what he's doing is just grand.

Read between the lines, notice the thread title is not "Anyone self harm?", but rather, "anyone like to self harm?"

Of course, as someone always suspicious of ulterior motives, I think he just saw Secretary too many times and is going Domme fishing. I'd be shocked if he didn't get a few good stern pms out of it.

 

[Marquis]

The issues are far from clear? Forgive me, but the issues are all quite clear. Medical and therapeutic professionals - and crime profilers - tend to agree that self-harm is an indicator of distress.

No, not everyone who wants to do something dangerous has a mental disorder - witness stuntpersons for the movies. But unless you've got a terminal disease and need to call Dr. Kevorkian, wanting to kill yourself means something is wrong. The only other instances I can think of are ancient Latin American cultures where some people who were selected for sacrifice went willingly, and terrorists who believe that their act of terrorism is a gateway to heaven.

No, I have never seen Leaving Las Vegas. Sorry I can't understand your reference.

I think the rest of your post directly contradicts your first two sentences.

You do know Kevorkian is in jail right? Obviously there is some debate about these issues, but since you've offered the examples of ancient South American (there is no ancient Latin America) human sacrifice and terrorists, how about these?

Defeated Japanese soldiers who perform the suicide ritual of Harikiri?

The first people to try vaccines, who are putting themselves at risk of contracting the disease?

People who refuse medical treatment for religious reasons?

What if you were going to be in jail for the rest of your life? You wouldn't kill yourself? I would.

 

[Pure]

Etoile said,
But unless you've got a terminal disease and need to call Dr. Kevorkian, wanting to kill yourself means something is wrong. {Goes on to mention South American willing human sacrifice and that of terrorists.}

Hi Etoile,
I do see where you're coming from, which is a 'medical establishment' view, though not quite DSM IV.

If you've seen, "Whose life is it anyway?" it does fit your criterion for 'something wrong', since the fellow is 'merely' paralyzed from the neck down. The play/movie, however, suggests he's sane, since the dr.s make exactly the argument you do, that he's depressed (simply becuase of what he wants.). And they lose in court.

I did speak of lack of a common framework between you and jeffrey. I meant you can define 'mental illness' your way, but maybe that's not his way. That many drs agree with you is not decisive, given their history of being wrong.

Sunfox said,

Not every person who does SI intends to kill themselves, or is suicidal even in the smallest way, and I feel that's a rather important distinction to make. Cutting that is tension release, at least, in the method that I have done for a good portion of my life, is barely a few layers of skin deep in fleshy areas.

Regarding sunfox's point. It's valid, but misses my argument.
IF one can't deal with suicide in one's medico-moral framework, then one can't most likely deal with the lesser forms of self harm. If you can't deal with blowing one's brains out, you cant deal with cutting off a finger. Etoile's response illustrates that. Her argument turns on the 'illness' [something wrong] involved in self-destruction or self harm.

I might perhaps mention "Bob the masochist". Etoile and most drs. would say something was wrong in driving a nail through his penis; etc.
But was he 'mentally ill'? What disorder of DSM IV did he have.

It's pretty generally conceded that Mr. Atta of 9-11 was not insane, and certainly the engaged fellow (I forget his name) was not.

Suppose one day a certain person, of say 60 (like Hunter) wakes up and says "I've had a good life; I'll pack it in now, before I deteriorate more noticeably." Is s/he ill?

Etoile herself gives the example of a stunt person as sane. Well, let's just say that jeffrey's 'stunt' is cutting himself. Possibly quite deeply. According to him, he knows what he's doing and doesn't want to die.
Then the pain payoff outweighs the danger. Just as the stuntman's 'rush' and paycheck and notariety outweigh the danger (not unlike the race car driver's).

That said, most of us who've been depressed, know that the ability to 'weigh' alternatives may be skewed. If anhedonia is present, one's assessments are off. Further we don't know of jeffrey's accuracy; he may be like the teen who believes 'no danger' in a pile of ecstasy, a fifth of vodka, and a pile of seconals.

Jeffrey it's good you've talked and maybe you and us can get clear if you know what you're doing. Once that's established, I don't think, theoretically, that Etoile, SweetD, thedig, and others can establish their points. In short, my criterion for mental illness is rather tighter than the standard one Etoile espouses: You're (mentally) 'ill' if you lack lucidity to the extent that your actions patently are out of sync with your wishes; if you're unable, with given desires, to take circumstances into account so as to effectively (past the immediate future) to get what you want and expect. You're legally 'ill' (insane) if youre unaware of your actions, OR you're aware of your actions, but it is not appreciated by you 1) that you are a danger to others, and mostly importantly, 2) that your being a danger is a good reason, in general, to abstain.

 

[Etoile]

If you've seen, "Whose life is it anyway?" it does fit your criterion for 'something wrong', since the fellow is 'merely' paralyzed from the neck down. The play/movie, however, suggests he's sane, since the dr.s make exactly the argument you do, that he's depressed (simply becuase of what he wants.). And they lose in court.

Sorry...haven't seen that one either! I'm a sci-fi kind of gal. That and cartoons.

I did speak of lack of a common framework between you and jeffrey. I meant you can define 'mental illness' your way, but maybe that's not his way. That many drs agree with you is not decisive, given their history of being wrong.

Sure, I can accept approaching it from different angles. But a "history of being wrong" can be applied to anything. That's why courtrooms have expert witnesses, and that's why I mentioned crime profilers - those who do profiles of serial killers. Because we have to have some frame of reference for things. No, one size does not fit ALL universally, but there must be generally accepted patterns, truths, or characteristics.

Once that's established, I don't think, theoretically, that Etoile, SweetD, thedig, and others can establish their points. In short, my criterion for mental illness is rather tighter than the standard one Etoile espouses: You're (mentally) 'ill' if you lack lucidity to the extent that your actions patently are out of sync with your wishes; if you're unable, with given desires, to take circumstances into account so as to effectively (past the immediate future) to get what you want and expect. (snip)

Forgive me, Pure, but now you're starting to come off as "no matter what the outcome is, my opinion is the right one, because the rest of your arguments won't hold up." You had just mentioned having different perspectives. I'm going to maintain my opinion about it, and you can maintain yours. I tend to think that mine is more accepted by both general society and medical professionals, but I'm not going to say that your perspective is patently wrong.

 

[sunfox]

Regarding sunfox's point. It's valid, but misses my argument.

Which is fine, since I wasn't arguing with you anyways, Pure. I was commenting on thedig and Etoile's insistence that all SI is suicidal in bent, which it is not.

 

[Etoile]

Which is fine, since I wasn't arguing with you anyways, Pure. I was commenting on thedig and Etoile's insistence that all SI is suicidal in bent, which it is not.

Did I say that all SI is suicidal? If I did, I certainly didn't mean to. My point of view is that the overwhelming majority of those who SI are doing it due to depression, anxiety, OCD, or some other mental instability. I certainly don't think they all want to kill themselves, though.

 

[sunfox]

Did I say that all SI is suicidal? If I did, I certainly didn't mean to. My point of view is that the overwhelming majority of those who SI are doing it due to depression, anxiety, OCD, or some other mental instability. I certainly don't think they all want to kill themselves, though.

But see, that's where our paths diverge. I don't think everyone who is depressed is mentally ill, nor that everyone who is anxious is mentally ill. If they are of the constantly anxious or depressed variety, then yes. But I don't fall under that category... I get depressed when a family member dies, or a pet, or if things are going badly for me, but I'm far from depressed clinically.

I don't necessarily feel that it's true that an overwhelming majority of SI are mentally unstable.. think of the number of teenage girls who do it in that age frame, but are fine in adulthood. That would imply that the vast majority of the female sex is mentally unstable. Which some men might agree with, but that's neither here nor there.

And no, you didn't say all were, but it was implied that a lot are.. but since that's not the way it was meant, it's all good. I was just attempting to clarify in the earlier post, since it was coming across that way.