Article: The Healthy Female Submissive

[JMohegan]

I think you need a Malcolm AND a Martin in liberations. It's not where you want to stagnate, but I think being genuinely pissed off enough to throw things is something you don't want to completely lose touch with.

I agree with that.

Getting back to your original question (do man-hating feminists really exist), I'm willing to start calling those Malcolm-style women from back in the day something else, if you think it better fits.

 

[00Syd]

This is a little bit of a sort of appropriate/sort of random interlude. I just found this article today, TV Ads That Hate Women: http://www.cracked.com/article_17036_8-tv-ads-that-hate-women.html

The fifth one shocked me a little bit. I remember seeing ads for play-home maker stuff, but I don't remember it ever being so blatent.

 

[intothewoods]

I agree with that.

Getting back to your original question (do man-hating feminists really exist), I'm willing to start calling those Malcolm-style women from back in the day something else, if you think it better fits.

Lesbian separatists? I'm kidding, but I'm pretty much with Netzach. I recall a handful of man-hating feminists from college. Since college, including law school? Zero. Women who said "I'm not a feminist but I believe in equal rights for women"? Oh, easily two dozen, and that's just those I asked the question to.

Re: Tool Time - I just had to say - I don't think the wife was all-knowing. She was just as dippy as Tim Allen's character. The wise sage was the neighbor. I hated that show, but for some reason I can recall quite a few episodes!

 

[intothewoods]

This is a little bit of a sort of appropriate/sort of random interlude. I just found this article today, TV Ads That Hate Women: http://www.cracked.com/article_17036_8-tv-ads-that-hate-women.html

The fifth one shocked me a little bit. I remember seeing ads for play-home maker stuff, but I don't remember it ever being so blatent.

Hard to take that as feminist commentary , but I must say I LOLed at "gay for yogurt" and "no wonder Skipper took to cutting herself."

 

[00Syd]

Hard to take that as feminist commentary , but I must say I LOLed at "gay for yogurt" and "no wonder Skipper took to cutting herself."

Haha true that. It's a comedy website and its not trying to be anything but. Thought it was ironic to stumble across it in the midst of this interesting conversation, though. Thought it might give some people LOLs and further advertising to dissect.

 

[JMohegan]

Lesbian separatists? I'm kidding, but I'm pretty much with Netzach. I recall a handful of man-hating feminists from college. Since college, including law school? Zero. Women who said "I'm not a feminist but I believe in equal rights for women"? Oh, easily two dozen, and that's just those I asked the question to.

If someone asks me if I'm a feminist, I ask them for their personal definition of the word. Sometimes my subsequent answer is yes, sometimes no.

 

[Homburg]

This is a little bit of a sort of appropriate/sort of random interlude. I just found this article today, TV Ads That Hate Women: http://www.cracked.com/article_17036_8-tv-ads-that-hate-women.html

The fifth one shocked me a little bit. I remember seeing ads for play-home maker stuff, but I don't remember it ever being so blatent.

Youngest daughter is nuts for that stuff. Nuts. She's crazy about all the domestic toys. The pink kitchen year before last was THE Christmas gift. She squealed when she saw it. This year, the big hit was a kid-sized version of the same sort of push cart that the cleaning ladies use.

I don't know where she see ads for this stuff. It's never on when I see them watch TV. It's like it bubbles up out of her gene code.

 

[midwestyankee]

Lesbian separatists? I'm kidding, but I'm pretty much with Netzach. I recall a handful of man-hating feminists from college. Since college, including law school? Zero. Women who said "I'm not a feminist but I believe in equal rights for women"? Oh, easily two dozen, and that's just those I asked the question to.

Re: Tool Time - I just had to say - I don't think the wife was all-knowing. She was just as dippy as Tim Allen's character. The wise sage was the neighbor. I hated that show, but for some reason I can recall quite a few episodes!

I doubt if anyone can name a sitcom about a family in which the father was the wisest adult in the house. The less-than-smart male has been a staple of sitcoms for decades.

 

[midwestyankee]

Re: Tool Time - I just had to say - I don't think the wife was all-knowing. She was just as dippy as Tim Allen's character. The wise sage was the neighbor. I hated that show, but for some reason I can recall quite a few episodes!

I challenge anyone to name a family sitcom in which Dad was the wisest adult in the house.

 

[eastern sun]

I challenge anyone to name a family sitcom in which Dad was the wisest adult in the house.

My Three Sons
The Brady Bunch

 

[midwestyankee]

My Three Sons
The Brady Bunch

I might be willing to give you My Three Sons, though as I recall, Fred had his moments of not getting it. The wisest adult in the Brady household, as I recall, was the housekeeper.

That said, don't you agree that the doofus dad is rather a staple of sitcoms?

 

[eastern sun]

I might be willing to give you My Three Sons, though as I recall, Fred had his moments of not getting it. The wisest adult in the Brady household, as I recall, was the housekeeper.

That said, don't you agree that the doofus dad is rather a staple of sitcoms?

Alice was the clown in the Brady Bunch. Dad could always be found in his study, working late, but still the repository of justice and wisdom. Mom was a bit hapless,, and never made a decision without deferring to Dad.

I haven't really watched tv in years. But the men have been growing steadily weaker as their technology has grown ever more powerful.

And I was walking down my block this morning, thinking about this thread, and couldn't help noticing how uncomfortable most of the young men around here feel about their own masculinity.

Both sexes get a lot of mixed messages.

But isn't that how we're kept off-balance, so we'll keep buying things to fix the "problem" and therefore keep the economic engine running?

 

[midwestyankee]

Alice was the clown in the Brady Bunch. Dad could always be found in his study, working late, but still the repository of justice and wisdom. Mom was a bit hapless,, and never made a decision without deferring to Dad.

I haven't really watched tv in years. But the men have been growing steadily weaker.

And I was walking down my block this morning, thinking about this thread, and couldn't help noticing how uncomfortable most of the young men around here feel about their own masculinity.

Both sexes get a lot of mixed messages.

But isn't that how we're kept off-balance, so we'll keep buying things to fix the "problem" and therefore keep the economic engine running?

You're probably right about the Brady Bunch. I don't know that I ever actually watched an entire episode.

What does it look like to you when men feel uncomfortable about their masculinity?

 

[eastern sun]

You're probably right about the Brady Bunch. I don't know that I ever actually watched an entire episode.

What does it look like to you when men feel uncomfortable about their masculinity?

They don't seem fully present in their bodies, and they make subtly apologetic gestures instead of eye contact when they pass me on the street.

 

[midwestyankee]

They don't seem fully present in their bodies, and they make subtly apologetic gestures instead of eye contact when they pass me on the street.

I'm thinking about this....and maybe it would have described me at times when I was quite young. But I felt more shy than unsure of my masculinity.

 

[eastern sun]

I read an article in the New York Times about Afghani girls who are being harassed for getting an education. Men are throwing acid in their faces as they walk to school. One 17 year old who had been badly scarred was quoted as saying that her mother had told her to continue to go to school, even if they killed her.

Can you imagine being willing to die for the right to go to school?

This is feminism in our globalized world. And it humbles me.

 

[Homburg]

I doubt if anyone can name a sitcom about a family in which the father was the wisest adult in the house. The less-than-smart male has been a staple of sitcoms for decades.

This.

--

I haven't really watched tv in years. But the men have been growing steadily weaker as their technology has grown ever more powerful.

This has been something I noticed as well, and expressed poorly earlier.

But isn't that how we're kept off-balance, so we'll keep buying things to fix the "problem" and therefore keep the economic engine running?

Very good point.

I read an article in the New York Times about Afghani girls who are being harassed for getting an education. Men are throwing acid in their faces as they walk to school. One 17 year old who had been badly scarred was quoted as saying that her mother had told her to continue to go to school, even if they killed her.

Can you imagine being willing to die for the right to go to school?

This is feminism in our globalized world. And it humbles me.

Saw this. It was awe-inspiring.

 

[Recidiva]

Sometimes you may need to take things to the extreme to find something. To be able to see or deal with a certain detail in the big picture. I've never gone to anything remotely wickan, but plenty separatist meetings and gatherings. Sometimes I've really smiled at how narrow the issues can get, but often it makes me happy.

Once at a demonstration I got a note about a weekend course to discuss gender opression within the animal rights movement which kind of stood out like that. At first I made a lot of fun of it, but then I saw it in a different light when I imagined a bunch of teenage girls with burning engagement get together for this purpose. How they would talk about how they sometimes don't feel that they're being heard when their group is planning to free some minks or similar action. Because that discussion and what they learn will spill over into other areas.

We don't expect men to talk about fatherhood at the cigarclub. Noone is responsible for every issue everytime. And sometimes it's really healthy to be pissed off. As long as you don't get stuck there.

Not a scary, but a funny example. I did go to a womyn's or some such workshop that decided we were to make dolls out of sanitary napkins in order to "dispel" some of the patriarchal horror surrounding them.

Now, me, I didn't know there was any patriarchal horror. But other people seemed to have fun. I dutifully made my doll and didn't go back. The drum circle was unfortunately not as spirited as the doll making.

Okay, maybe someone really has patriarchal napkin horror. I'm not one of them. But truth be told the world is more interesting with stuff like this floating about.

 

[Recidiva]

I might be willing to give you My Three Sons, though as I recall, Fred had his moments of not getting it. The wisest adult in the Brady household, as I recall, was the housekeeper.

That said, don't you agree that the doofus dad is rather a staple of sitcoms?

I think Greg House is an excellent male role model.

But Sitcoms like "King of Queens" and "Tool Time" are the norm.

Not to hold sitcoms up to any level of intelligence, I just find that if the roles were reversed, there'd be a torch-carryin' meetin' of the female sort.

 

[Recidiva]

Alice was the clown in the Brady Bunch. Dad could always be found in his study, working late, but still the repository of justice and wisdom. Mom was a bit hapless,, and never made a decision without deferring to Dad.

I haven't really watched tv in years. But the men have been growing steadily weaker as their technology has grown ever more powerful.

And I was walking down my block this morning, thinking about this thread, and couldn't help noticing how uncomfortable most of the young men around here feel about their own masculinity.

Both sexes get a lot of mixed messages.

But isn't that how we're kept off-balance, so we'll keep buying things to fix the "problem" and therefore keep the economic engine running?

I think I have to go back to Robert Young in "Father Knows Best."

I'd have to say that solution regarding the economy is clearly not working, which is the best news about the recession I've heard so far.

 

[intothewoods]

Youngest daughter is nuts for that stuff. Nuts. She's crazy about all the domestic toys. The pink kitchen year before last was THE Christmas gift. She squealed when she saw it. This year, the big hit was a kid-sized version of the same sort of push cart that the cleaning ladies use.

I don't know where she see ads for this stuff. It's never on when I see them watch TV. It's like it bubbles up out of her gene code.

How old is she? Mine loved the toy vacuum cleaner at a playspace we used to go to. And since I am a good urban progressive parent, of course I bought him a kitchen! He loves it. I also bought him a doll but he repeatedly stuffed that one in the bottom of his toy box. Recently he has been more interested in all things baby though.

I doubt if anyone can name a sitcom about a family in which the father was the wisest adult in the house. The less-than-smart male has been a staple of sitcoms for decades.

Totally agreed about the less-than-smart male, but I think Cosby Show and Family Ties were fairly balanced. I mean, the males had their goofy, ditzy moments, but the women did as well.

 

[midwestyankee]

Totally agreed about the less-than-smart male, but I think Cosby Show and Family Ties were fairly balanced. I mean, the males had their goofy, ditzy moments, but the women did as well.

I was thinking of the Cosby Show as I typed that post and you're right, it was more balanced than most sitcoms (which may well have had something to do with Bill's influence on the show as well as his interests at the time). I wouldn't know a Family Ties episode if it were on right in front of me. I'm guessing that it wasn't about a family that were all deeply into bondage, though, right?

Earlier here Recidiva made the point that if a sitcom aired where the woman of the house was as dumb and clueless as most sitcom dads are, there would be a torch-bearing protest. I find that interesting: why is it that men are so willing to see their worst traits lampooned in a medium that is so central to our culture? Especially interesting in light of the way women would be quite likely to fight such a treatment as hard as they could.

 

[Recidiva]

I was thinking of the Cosby Show as I typed that post and you're right, it was more balanced than most sitcoms (which may well have had something to do with Bill's influence on the show as well as his interests at the time). I wouldn't know a Family Ties episode if it were on right in front of me. I'm guessing that it wasn't about a family that were all deeply into bondage, though, right?

Earlier here Recidiva made the point that if a sitcom aired where the woman of the house was as dumb and clueless as most sitcom dads are, there would be a torch-bearing protest. I find that interesting: why is it that men are so willing to see their worst traits lampooned in a medium that is so central to our culture? Especially interesting in light of the way women would be quite likely to fight such a treatment as hard as they could.

I think men (particularly white men) are accustomed to being cast as the moustache twirling bad guys. It's hard to break out of typecasting. Arguing about it hardly ever helps. The only defense is self deprecating acceptance of the "truth" that men are pigs. "But I'm enlightened and I compensate for my inherent evil!" is the message conveyed by acceptance of that wisdom. Arguing against it just reinforces the entitled moustache twirling, no matter how reasonable.

I just really hope it balances itself out soon so everyone's accorded respect and dignity.

I don't believe in the sins of the father and the sins of the son thing. Maybe that's because I'm a daughter and historically it was already assumed I was sin laden just 'cause I had the wrong set of chromosomes. If I reject that logic in myself, I extend that logic to others.

Hopefully it won't be a huge social upheaval, but I'd really love to see men get some more respect in my lifetime. Men are due more respect socially, legally and otherwise, particularly from my view, in family issues. This doesn't mean just "I got a good lawyer so I got a kickass prenup." I mean the current idea that a female, even if she's just short of a meth-addicted axe murderer, makes a better parent than a man.

I'm particularly offended by the "common knowledge" that women as a group are infinitely more "emotionally capable" than men. Well, that's just as much bullshit as the idea that girls can't do math.

If skin color or gender really aren't supposed to mean anything when we're dealing with accomplishments and potential, I can't wait until that is reflected around me in our entertainment and our laws. We're so much closer than we used to be, but we need a few more generations likely before the crack of the backlash fades.

Unfortunately men defending themselves in the current climate just look bad unless you listen very carefully to what they're saying and again, realize that if enough men are saying it, we should listen.

 

[WriterDom]

I find that interesting: why is it that men are so willing to see their worst traits lampooned in a medium that is so central to our culture? Especially interesting in light of the way women would be quite likely to fight such a treatment as hard as they could.

Men have a choice? All of culture's media is cuddled tightly to the bosom of the liberal think tank. Thus men have to be powerless castrated wimps. 99% of Hollyweird are nothing but shameless cheerleaders for the left. Of course their "art" is going to portray their bias. All the right has is talk radio and Fox news. And that's enough to make liberals wet their panties everyday.

Bring back the fairness doctrine you fascists pigs!

 

[eastern sun]

I was thinking of the Cosby Show as I typed that post and you're right, it was more balanced than most sitcoms (which may well have had something to do with Bill's influence on the show as well as his interests at the time). I wouldn't know a Family Ties episode if it were on right in front of me. I'm guessing that it wasn't about a family that were all deeply into bondage, though, right?

Earlier here Recidiva made the point that if a sitcom aired where the woman of the house was as dumb and clueless as most sitcom dads are, there would be a torch-bearing protest. I find that interesting: why is it that men are so willing to see their worst traits lampooned in a medium that is so central to our culture? Especially interesting in light of the way women would be quite likely to fight such a treatment as hard as they could.

I've always understood that the comedy, the jokes, in any culture are funny because they make ridiculous the traits we are uncomfortable with, but that we recognize as true, and fundamentally human. Note your own statement that it is "our worst traits" that are lampooned.

There are jokes too that are just meant to demean/degrade the butt of the joke, and therefore reinforce social heirarchies.

Comedy is inherently humbling. And, in the hands of mean people, humiliating.