Barber Shop Wisdom

[graceanne]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but women weren't any more 'naturally' submissive back then than they are now. The phrase 'henpecked' was around for a long time, cause some men were and are (of course now we call it pussy whipped - but whatever).

But, RR's point was that he says he wants someone who doesn't talk back. Doesn't mean anything other than that's the kinda chick he wants. Frankly, their are a lot of chicks who don't talk back. And why this is a surprise (if it is) is beyond me, considering how much he likes that site takeninhand. *shrugs*

PLUS, I don't know if anyone's noticed this, but most of us SAMMY chicks try not to derail threads over here in talk.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

I can kinda see where Roscoe and OSG are coming from with these thoughts because before I embraced my sub side I thought it was a throwback to my Christian upbringing where the man's word was law. I believed for a long time that there was something wrong with me that my inner feminist needed to kick in to touch were I not to be a disgrace to the women's lib movement and all the career feminists who got women the vote and (more or less) equal rights here in the west.

There is something very deep and primal in me that quiets and is soothed by submission to my Master. My young life was totally controlled by 'alpha' churchmen who firmly believed they had God on their side (always a dangerous notion.) After my parents split, my mother would consult the elders before making any major decision or expenditure. Even in a family of 1 single mum and 2 daughters, our lives were managed by local men. Because they were the only significant male figures in my early life, I grew up to never contradict or disobey an adult male. This could have got me into a lot of trouble had my mother not been at pains to make sure that my sister and I knew the difference between seeking counsel from a church elder and being put upon by chauvinist asshats. To this day though, submission to Master and deference at all times is 'natural' to me in a way that being an assertive, modern woman (which I can pull off convincingly when necessary but always feels a bit false) will never be.

There was a woman in our congregation. Her husband wasn't Christian. He married her specifically because he knew she was a weak willed doormat. She was systematically abused for years. He beat her almost to death on a number of occasions and she would not leave him because he was her husband before God. Her plight disturbed me greatly because she was deeply unhappy. The church elders (who generally advise couples to work at a marriage unless there has been infidelity or gross abuse) begged her to leave him and she wouldn't. It was a powerful lesson for me because I always swore that I would never be that woman. I would never get my beliefs so twisted or become so totally afraid of a man that I would ever live like that. Fortunately, they never had kids but she was his wife until he died, slowly and painfully, of liver failure. She nursed him tenderly where most women would have taken the opportunity for a little vengeance or passive euthanasia.

I guess that's why when OSG talks happily about being punched and kicked it disturbs me. I don't ever want submission forced out of me by the threat of real violence that could damage me. I serve Master because I love him, not because I'm petrified of what he might do to me if I fail in any task or have a PMT sammy day that I really can't help. I'm relieved that OSG is happy in her service and ownership but I agree with others that it would not be right for me.

 

[rosco rathbone]

My young life was totally controlled by 'alpha' churchmen who firmly believed they had God on their side (always a dangerous notion.) After my parents split, my mother would consult the elders before making any major decision or expenditure.

This reminds me of the Lars Von Trier movie Breaking The Waves.

 

[intothewoods]

you know, people have said that here and in other places like this (online) about my way of life quite a bit...being "extreme" and all. but really it's all a matter of perspective. from my particular window, my life is for the most part simple, basic, and often mundane. "extreme" to me would be some of the things i hear others casually describe here...cutting/bloodletting, electrical gizmos on private parts, male subs begging to be tortured by Dommes, leather and pvc obsessions, strap-ons and all other sorts of whatnot. it's as difficult for me to fathom the drive and purpose behind such things as i suppose it is for others to understand my way of life. but at the core i'm something akin to the old-fashioned housewife, cooking his meals, handwashing his undies, keeping his home tidy. we don't argue because he doesn't tolerate backtalk, and yeah he'll knock some sense back into me when i screw up, get too big for my britches or just generally step outta line. it's a simple, uncomplicated, and for us natural way of living.

many of our parents and grandparents and great-grandparents lived much the same way, without the perverted sex...was their way of life "extreme?"

First of all, I don't want to insult you or degrade your life. I'm just being straight with you. It is extreme to me, and not because my life consists of strap-ons and PVC, or ambitious career women. I work, but I'm friends with plenty of stay at home moms who do all of the cooking, housework and handwashing. Hell, I was one for two years. I've been a housewife. That's not extreme at all. It's the norm in some of my social circles.

What is extreme to me is being whored out by your PYL, being beaten when you step out of line and not tolerating backtalk. But there are plenty of other arrangements discussed on the boards here that seem extreme to me. But so what. Because they're not my norm means just that and nothing more. As I said before, I don't think anyone has the market corned on what is "normal" or "natural." And if it works for you, that's all that matters. I wholeheartedly believe that. I don't care what people do behind closed doors. I really don't. The only time I ever get my panties in a bunch is when there are kids involved, because they don't get to choose their parents sexual preferences.

 

[ownedsubgal]

folks keep throwing around that word, "happiness." that's not what it's (life) all about imo and not something i consider one way or the other when i think about things like the natural order, "traditional" relationships and being a submissive woman who just doesn't talk back.

my grandparents were together until they died (a year apart), married 65 years. they had an old school-style male HOH relationship, my grandmother never worked although she desperately wanted to at times because they were dirt poor the first 15 or 20 yrs and it's well-known in the family that in his young and spry days my kindly grandpa wouldn't hesitate to take a leather strap to my grandmother's back when he got the urge. were they blissfully happy? heck no. granny was miserable for many years, according to all of her kids, and would take her own frustrations and misery out on her children. but was it an unhappy household because they lived by traditional values, or because my grandpa used to be a drunken butthole?

as tumultous as the earlier days were, they grew old together and clearly depended on each other. when my grandfather died of cancer my grandmother's heart broke, she no longer cared about anything and soon fell ill herself. not trying to describe their relationship as some model i strive to follow, as my dreams are bigger and i feel i'm capable and deserving of achieving better. i feel fortunate to have found a loving Master and Mate. but whether the love is there or not, whether the happiness or joy is there or not, i strongly believe in Male/female relationships with a solid D/s foundation. implemented the right way, i think it can be a way to build not just successful relationships, but communities as well.

 

[ownedsubgal]

This reminds me of the Lars Von Trier movie Breaking The Waves.

one of my all-time favorites!

 

[rosco rathbone]

Although I believe in a natural order, I'd never try to force it on someone who didn't feel as I do.

Behind closed doors in my house, things will be done the old way. What goes on in the outside world doesn't really concern me.

 

[FurryFury]

So you are saying there is a "natural order" to things. That order is D/s with the Male as the D?

Your story about your grandparents does not make me feel, "Oh that's beautiful." btw. It makes me feel, "Oh that's tragic."

 

[rosco rathbone]

one of my all-time favorites!

Gee, what a surprise.

 

[FurryFury]

Although I believe in a natural order, I'd never try to force it on someone who didn't feel as I do.

Behind closed doors in my house, things will be done the old way. What goes on in the outside world doesn't really concern me.

I think the "natural order" for any two people might be different from another couple. I think diversity is fantastic.

 

[intothewoods]

<snip>

There is something very deep and primal in me that quiets and is soothed by submission to my Master. My young life was totally controlled by 'alpha' churchmen who firmly believed they had God on their side (always a dangerous notion.) After my parents split, my mother would consult the elders before making any major decision or expenditure. Even in a family of 1 single mum and 2 daughters, our lives were managed by local men. Because they were the only significant male figures in my early life, I grew up to never contradict or disobey an adult male. This could have got me into a lot of trouble had my mother not been at pains to make sure that my sister and I knew the difference between seeking counsel from a church elder and being put upon by chauvinist asshats. To this day though, submission to Master and deference at all times is 'natural' to me in a way that being an assertive, modern woman (which I can pull off convincingly when necessary but always feels a bit false) will never be. <snip>

I completely agree with the bolded part, and yet I could not have been raised more differently! Isn't it fascinating? It all makes me wonder how much is nature, and how much is nurture. Crazy stuff.

On another issue...Lots of subs will say, and I have said it too, I am dominant in my public life, and so it is a counterbalance to that to be submissive in the bedroom. I am starting to really disagree with that characterization, and I even find it kind of insulting. I'm not dominant in my career just because I'm a successful professional. I'm assertive. I manage and lead as part of my job, but it's really not anything to do with D/s. Not everything can be defined in those terms.

I think at the outset, sexual submission seemed so hot to me because bdsm was so taboo in most of my social circles. Especially Het M/f D/s, amongst some of my friends. Now that initial taboo has kind of faded, and I'm enjoying much more of the primal stuff - the guts of my bdsm.

 

[rosco rathbone]

It all makes me wonder how much is nature, and how much is nurture. Crazy stuff.

That way lies an endless web of disputation and controversy.

 

[intothewoods]

That way lies an endless web of disputation and controversy.

I like that.


osg - I said "if it works for you." I know you believe that is the natural order of things, but I don't. I can't force you to accept my beliefs any more than you can force me to accept yours.

 

[Netzach]

I guess Ayn Rand sunk in for me, and life IS, pretty much unapologetically about "happiness." Suffering you didn't sign up for really doesn't have any justification, though finding those is a great political tool for controlling people.

Ironic, but I'm a "leave me the fuck alone" in my public life more than a Dominant in my public life. I think a lot of the Dominants I know are just that, we really have a loner and a strong strong self-interest streak which doesn't work well to one's favor in social hierarchy.

I'm not trying to convince anyone their lives or philosophies are inferior, I'm just saying "here's why this doesn't make sense to me."

And feeding RR shit because, well, I understand being cranky about feeling caught between self-conscious scenesters and people who are something and have totally no idea they are that and thinking the latter might be appealing over the long haul.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I think osg means "happiness" in the modern, media, popular-culture sense. A woman has to have a successful career and put herself first....etc. Her happiness comes from something else.

 

[Netzach]

I think osg means "happiness" in the modern, media, popular-culture sense. A woman has to have a successful career and put herself first....etc. Her happiness comes from something else.

Hey, if that's what drives you, great.

I tend to have more faith in people finding their beloved place doing what they want among options than among no options.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Hey, if that's what drives you, great.

I tend to have more faith in people finding their beloved place doing what they want among options than among no options.

I'm putting words in osg's mouth here, but it seems like she's pretty aware of her life-choice as an option. SHe's obviously educated and articulate.

Her grandmother may not have been in the same position.

................................

I love the posts at this site made by "noone".

http://blog.christiandomesticdiscipline.com/2008/01/28/more-thoughts-on-spanking.aspx

"...lthough lost with the passage of time, *birthday spankings* are simply the surviving remnants of ancient fertility rituals. When carried a little further - especially when accompanied by the removal of clothing - they can become quite erotic. Then, that was their intended purpose!

Erotic spankings usually administered by the hand to the bared buttocks. Voluntary nudity and enthusiastic submission are not uncommon.

These episodes are more about play than about pain. Still, in the scheme of things, they serve a useful purpose because vaginal lubrication signals the first stage of female submission to male prerogatives. That is why it is often the gateway to discovering the virtues of *domestic discipline*....."

 

[Netzach]

This reminds me of the Lars Von Trier movie Breaking The Waves.

God and I hate my mother for deferring to HER mother. I can't imagine how poorly I'd have fielded this kind of thing. I'd probably have killed people by now.

My mother is an extremely submissive woman. For those people who uphold that in girls and try and model it to them, let me be a warning shot across the bow - this sometimes don't work good. I guess if anything I'm getting a lot more of a respect for nature from this dialogue, because I know what mine's not.

 

[Netzach]

I'm putting words in osg's mouth here, but it seems like she's pretty aware of her life-choice as an option. SHe's obviously educated and articulate.

Her grandmother may not have been in the same position.

Yep, that's exactly what I meant. I agree that osg is totally opting for that which I would not opt for in a way I consider groovy kosher and as much as she'll hate me for thinking it, modern. Granny, well, we just don't know.

 

[intothewoods]

I guess Ayn Rand sunk in for me, and life IS, pretty much unapologetically about "happiness." Suffering you didn't sign up for really doesn't have any justification, though finding those is a great political tool for controlling people.

Ironic, but I'm a "leave me the fuck alone" in my public life more than a Dominant in my public life. I think a lot of the Dominants I know are just that, we really have a loner and a strong strong self-interest streak which doesn't work well to one's favor in social hierarchy.

I'm not trying to convince anyone their lives or philosophies are inferior, I'm just saying "here's why this doesn't make sense to me."
And feeding RR shit because, well, I understand being cranky about feeling caught between self-conscious scenesters and people who are something and have totally no idea they are that and thinking the latter might be appealing over the long haul.

The bolded part - Totally.

Interesting about the loner Dominant thing. That totally sounds like my guy in his public life. I'm pretty damn social too, so it's kind of odd to me at times.

 

[intothewoods]

I think osg means "happiness" in the modern, media, popular-culture sense. A woman has to have a successful career and put herself first....etc. Her happiness comes from something else.

I think popular culture's definition of happiness for women is more about achieving that mythical life-work balance. I have the perfect job, the perfect husband, the perfect nanny, and the perfect amount of family time, couple time and me-time. Ain't life grand? Uh, yeah, on what planet...

 

[Netzach]

I think popular culture's definition of happiness for women is more about achieving that mythical life-work balance. I have the perfect job, the perfect husband, the perfect nanny, and the perfect amount of family time, couple time and me-time. Ain't life grand? Uh, yeah, on what planet...

Pretty much. Because the capitalist hegemony is really torn between the fetish for babies and having everyone work to death feeding it too. I'm definitely scheduled to look back on my life in 2 more years or so and go "oh shit I don't have babies I'm so MISERABLE and my life so EMPTY" and then go on to play a dried up bitter career woman villain.

 

[00Syd]

Happiness is different for everyone else, and so, do what makes you happy. Career women of the world, do your thing. Housewives, go for it.

The point of it that I keep getting stuck on is the belief that there is in fact a "natural order." First off, those two words when put together give me the willies no matter their context, and secondly, that is not a "natural order" that everyone fits into and is happy in. So while that order may be natural for one person and what makes them happy, a different order completely could be what is natural for and what makes another person happy.

Different strokes for different folks.

I think what needs to be clarified is if we're talking "natural order" for everyone... or natural order for an individual. Big difference.

I can't help but think that grandma didn't choose that order, and that it may not have been the most natural for her, and hell, she may have been much happier having an equal footing as grandpa. We'll never know.

 

[intothewoods]

Pretty much. Because the capitalist hegemony is really torn between the fetish for babies and having everyone work to death feeding it too. I'm definitely scheduled to look back on my life in 2 more years or so and go "oh shit I don't have babies I'm so MISERABLE and my life so EMPTY" and then go on to play a dried up bitter career woman villain.

I almost spit up my coffee. I am so going to use the term baby fetish whenever I can with my other breeder friends. I guess I should say "baby making fetish" just so no one freaks out.

 

[graceanne]

I think popular culture's definition of happiness for women is more about achieving that mythical life-work balance. I have the perfect job, the perfect husband, the perfect nanny, and the perfect amount of family time, couple time and me-time. Ain't life grand? Uh, yeah, on what planet...

I think that 'the perfect life' sounds exhausting and not perfect.

And I've known women who have 'the perfect life' - don't get them started on who does the housework.