BDSM and Religion

[JMohegan]

Noted; I learn something new every day. But I hope my point didn't escape notice in my faulty example.

As I understand it, your ultimate point is that you believe all suffering in the modern world, resulting from famine, disease, pestilence, natural disaster, fatal or debilitating accident, interspecies and intraspecies conflict and violence (affecting both animals and humans, young and old, from the most innocent to the most unscrupulous), results from the misdeeds of humans, both living and long dead. God should be praised for creating the good elements and aspects of the world, and for intervening occasionally to perform "miracles" on behalf of the individuals whom he favors, but other than that he bears no responsibility for what's going on.

Have I summed that up correctly?

Bamboo rats, red pandas, mountain gorillas, chimps, and elephants eat it as well, although only bamboo rats eat it almost exclusively as pandas do.

They eat different parts of the plant. Bamboo rats eat roots, gorillas eat leaves and new shoots.

Have you ever actually held mature bamboo in your hand? You need mega-molars and very powerful jaws to do this:

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa78/johnmohegan/bamboo_panda.jpg

 

[Ravenwind]

As I understand it, your ultimate point is that you believe all suffering in the modern world, resulting from famine, disease, pestilence, natural disaster, fatal or debilitating accident, interspecies and intraspecies conflict and violence (affecting both animals and humans, young and old, from the most innocent to the most unscrupulous), results from the misdeeds of humans, both living and long dead. God should be praised for creating the good elements and aspects of the world, and for intervening occasionally to perform "miracles" on behalf of the individuals whom he favors, but other than that he bears no responsibility for what's going on.

Have I summed that up correctly?

For the most part. ^_^ But even the bad stuff as well, because we can't always see what's going on behind the scenes, and something might be done to prove a point, have an educational purpose, or as a wake-up call, or somesuch. Barring most natural disasters (and other large-scale accidents of that sort), I feel no event is truly random and purposeless. But it's up to us to find the purpose within it, and how to improve ourselves based upon that purpose.

They eat different parts of the plant. Bamboo rats eat roots, gorillas eat leaves and new shoots.

Have you ever actually held mature bamboo in your hand? You need mega-molars and very powerful jaws to do this:

Yup. Now, let's backtrack to my original point. You got two animals who have powerful jaws, huge jagged teeth, enlarged canines, and fairly similar jaw structure. One currently eats plants, the other currently eats meat. I would not see it as much of a stretch to view predators eating tough plants in the past, as a panda currently does (as bamboo is not the only incredibly tough plant in the world)... likewise, if the panda gave up eating bamboo and started eating meat (like that herd of deer did), it would be just as likely for a panda to become an predator (or at very least as omnivorous as its namesake) as well.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

oh my.
i was thinking about the walk of faith and BDSM. pain can be a complete bitch at times, especially during life's shit storms. There is a bliss that comes after the relief finally arrives. Similar to multiple clothespins placed in conspicuous spots around the body. the swelling and blood flow causing constriction and leaving marks. the relief and joy that follows with caresses. the state of energy that can occur after a long and stressful experience....
hmmmmm... not to mention the joys following confession and eucharistic wine.

Hmmm...there does seem to be a connection there: pain or restriction, followed by relief. There is that idea in each religion that through grace or striving or good works or sacrifice or offerings or acceptance one can survive and even transcend the pain of life. I was sick recently, and experienced "post-sickness" euphoria. Just happy to be feel normal (insert joke here), which is quite a nice relief.

So...eucharist in the chancel at midnight, followed by um, laundry to remove the wine stains?

 

[RJMasters]

There is no credible historical evidence that Moses, author of the OT, ever existed - much less that his inspiration or instruction came from a divine source. I don't mean to belabor the point, but you seem to be missing it entirely so I'll say it once again. When you talk to me about Moses being a leader, you might as well talk about Aragorn rallying the troops to the Black Gate.

There is no credible historical evidence that Moses, author of the OT, ever existed?

Neither is there of Willam Shakespear. We only know that he existed because we put some faith or credience to historical books. The faith and credence we put into believing willam shakspear existed is founded upon archeologic sciences and the accurate passing of factual accounts from one generation to the next.

The bible's OT has more archelogical evidence to prove the text's accuracy about cultures, people, locations etc... than there is archelogical evidence that willam shakespear existed.

I am not saying that it confirms the miracles that Moses performed or proves he went up on a mnt and recieved the ten commands from God, but it does speak to the credibility that Moses...as a man did exist, that he walked, ate, talked and was a leader to the people of Isreal and lead them out of bondage from the egyptians.

To compare Moses with a known mythical character in a book series is not an apples to apples comparision and is a gross exageration that discounts records of isrealite geneolgy, cultrual traditions which have been observed by the Jewish people dating back to their Egyptian captivity, and Egyptian archeology findings.

Ya know the whole passover thing passed on from generation to generation was according to your logic and criteria a religious tradition that was given to the Jewish people...from a mythical man that never existed or that can't possible be proven to exist.

riiiiighhhhhtttt.

 

[Ravenwind]

The bible's OT has more archelogical evidence to prove the text's accuracy about cultures, people, locations etc... >8 Snippedy-do-dah 8< ...from a mythical man that never existed or that can't possible be proven to exist.

riiiiighhhhhtttt.

QFT and +1. They found Jericho with its collapsed walls, devastated cities that might be Sodom and Gomorrah with brimstone under them as far down as they can dig, and whole groups of people whom average scientists said 'fantasy' but were later proven wrong (Amalekites, for starters).

And then there's all the traditions that've been passed down.

 

[JMohegan]

There is no credible historical evidence that Moses, author of the OT, ever existed?

Neither is there of Willam Shakespear. We only know that he existed because we put some faith or credience to historical books. The faith and credence we put into believing willam shakspear existed is founded upon archeologic sciences and the accurate passing of factual accounts from one generation to the next.

The bible's OT has more archelogical evidence to prove the text's accuracy about cultures, people, locations etc... than there is archelogical evidence that willam shakespear existed.

I am not saying that it confirms the miracles that Moses performed or proves he went up on a mnt and recieved the ten commands from God, but it does speak to the credibility that Moses...as a man did exist, that he walked, ate, talked and was a leader to the people of Isreal and lead them out of bondage from the egyptians.

To compare Moses with a known mythical character in a book series is not an apples to apples comparision and is a gross exageration that discounts records of isrealite geneolgy, cultrual traditions which have been observed by the Jewish people dating back to their Egyptian captivity, and Egyptian archeology findings.

Ya know the whole passover thing passed on from generation to generation was according to your logic and criteria a religious tradition that was given to the Jewish people...from a mythical man that never existed or that can't possible be proven to exist.

riiiiighhhhhtttt.

See Historiography.

I don't find the record compelling; you do. We disagree, no problem.

 

[JMohegan]

For the most part. ^_^ But even the bad stuff as well, because we can't always see what's going on behind the scenes, and something might be done to prove a point, have an educational purpose, or as a wake-up call, or somesuch. Barring most natural disasters (and other large-scale accidents of that sort), I feel no event is truly random and purposeless. But it's up to us to find the purpose within it, and how to improve ourselves based upon that purpose.

So he's part elementary school teacher with the 'if one kid acts out, then no one gets recess' mindset, and part sadist prone to unpredictable administration of pain and elaborate mindfucks.

Interesting way to contrive a universe, and run a planet.

 

[Ravenwind]

So he's part elementary school teacher with the 'if one kid acts out, then no one gets recess' mindset, and part sadist prone to unpredictable administration of pain and elaborate mindfucks.

Interesting way to contrive a universe, and run a planet.

I wouldn't put it that way. Moreso "Shit happens". Sometimes shit happens randomly and a bridge collapses or a landslide or a hurricane. No one's fault, it just happens. On a personal level, though, (barring stuff like the above and simply being at the wrong place at the wrong time), there is always something we can learn about ourselves or about society as a whole from every positive and negative effect in our lives. We can be placed in a position, for example, like Job, where our world collapses about our ears, or at very least, like Paul, it is a pain in side but not truly complaint-worthy. Be it "keep your chin up, even when the light at the end of the tunnel is at its faintest- your troubles will eventually end" or "be happy for what you have, as you still have your health- it could be a lot worse", there is always something to be gleaned from every aspect of both joy and misery.

And no, I wouldn't say it's 'unpredictable' either. "Shit happens" is unpredictable... God's actions within an individual life are easily predictable... or at least within my own. Some people call it karma, some call it the the rule of three... I call it "you reap what you sow".

I know when I violate God's Laws, I immediately know He's not too happy with me- first off, by my own sense of guilt. If I ignore my guilt, then I see uncontrollable changes around my life... the stuff that is causing me to sin begins to fail or break... the more I ignore the situation, the more all things seem to go wrong and hinder my efforts to do anything. One could say it's akin to the 'Tell-Tale Heart', however, in time, it affects those close to me... others begin to suffer just as I do- 'when it rains, it pours' for all of us. Only when I cease doing what I'm doing, or come clean as to what I've done, do *all* the problems cease. (And as for 'empirical'... the plumbing breaks and my room floods every time I failed in one particular aspect of my life, no matter what house we've lived in, and because it's happened so often, as sure as the sun comes up at dawn, that if I did it again, my room would flood about 6 months later if I didn't stop [and no, what I did had nothing to do with the plumbing]).

To me, it is a matter of cause and effect. I cause trouble, I will reap the natural end effects of it (I steal, I go to jail), however, unless I change my ways, "shit happens" will happen a lot more, in foreseeable ways, and in ever-increasingly larger issues. I do what is right, and resist temptation, "flowers happen" in the same manner.

...One can also tell 'a test' as opposed to 'discipline for transgressions'. I have certain... failings... that I struggle to overcome. Having my faith and obedience tested, and should I pass, I find both prosperity and a lack of temptation of any sort for a *long* time. Failing it usually winds up bad... and disastrous if I am tested in a particular weakness of mine. ...and I have yet to pass a test that I've asked for. *sigh*

However, I wouldn't say this applies to everyone... as this was something specific I had prayed for, that God's proverbial hand would either 'pat me on the head when I do good, so I can continue' or 'smack me around when I fail, so I'll stop', and the wisdom to see it happening. I also should've prayed for 'and the strength to overcome my weaknesses', but, meh, it's getting there.

 

[clock1]

Moses, yeah, he led the Hebrews out of Egypt, only the Egyptians, a scholarly people don't mention Hebrew slaves, moses, plagues or any such.

There is a great deal of recorded historical evidence that says when the OT was written they got this part wrong (So much for the word of god).

A brief explanation (There are others, more scholarly, but this is a good summary):

"Actually, if you study the actual documented history Egypt there is serious doubt that there were the massive flux of Hebrew slaves as depicted in the bible. Assuming that the enslavement and exodus occurred during the Middle Kingdom, as thought by certain biblical references including the building of two cities for Ramses, there is a plethora of information from that period. None of said information refers to massive amounts of Hebrew slaves or to a mass exodus. Certainly, there is no literature from that time that points to the plagues that supposedly rained down on Egypt that were described in the bible.

The Middle Kingdom of Egypt was a vibrant time in Egyptian culture with many foreign peoples populating the land. Egypt had just recently reclaimed its society from being controlled by foreigners and thus were suspicious. Therefore, they assessed many more taxes on foreigners than on native Egyptians. During this period many cultures relocated, peacefully and staggered. Not in the mass exodus described in the bible. Also, recent evidence suggests that the "slaves" who built the cities and temples were respected artisans and workers. Of course, there were slaves in Egypt, as in most cultures of the time, but not the massive numbers portrayed in the bible. And most certainly not all hebrew.

It is suprising that an empire with such a rich and well documented history would be completely silent on such events as described in the bible. These chapters in the bible were written much later by hebrew priests attempting to make a great and powerful history for their small nomadic tribe. This tale ended with the Hebrews conquering the land of Israel thus giving rise to the myth of a Jewish holy land. This is obviously a story meant to give hope and spirit to people, to show that though they were outnumbered their God would save them. Unfortunately, the tiny Judah nation found out that these stories were just parables when they were conquered by the Romans."

 

[JMohegan]

I wouldn't put it that way. Moreso "Shit happens". Sometimes shit happens randomly and a bridge collapses or a landslide or a hurricane. No one's fault, it just happens. On a personal level, though, (barring stuff like the above and simply being at the wrong place at the wrong time), there is always something we can learn about ourselves or about society as a whole from every positive and negative effect in our lives. We can be placed in a position, for example, like Job, where our world collapses about our ears, or at very least, like Paul, it is a pain in side but not truly complaint-worthy. Be it "keep your chin up, even when the light at the end of the tunnel is at its faintest- your troubles will eventually end" or "be happy for what you have, as you still have your health- it could be a lot worse", there is always something to be gleaned from every aspect of both joy and misery.

And no, I wouldn't say it's 'unpredictable' either. "Shit happens" is unpredictable... God's actions within an individual life are easily predictable... or at least within my own. Some people call it karma, some call it the the rule of three... I call it "you reap what you sow".

I know when I violate God's Laws, I immediately know He's not too happy with me- first off, by my own sense of guilt. If I ignore my guilt, then I see uncontrollable changes around my life... the stuff that is causing me to sin begins to fail or break... the more I ignore the situation, the more all things seem to go wrong and hinder my efforts to do anything. One could say it's akin to the 'Tell-Tale Heart', however, in time, it affects those close to me... others begin to suffer just as I do- 'when it rains, it pours' for all of us. Only when I cease doing what I'm doing, or come clean as to what I've done, do *all* the problems cease. (And as for 'empirical'... the plumbing breaks and my room floods every time I failed in one particular aspect of my life, no matter what house we've lived in, and because it's happened so often, as sure as the sun comes up at dawn, that if I did it again, my room would flood about 6 months later if I didn't stop [and no, what I did had nothing to do with the plumbing]).

To me, it is a matter of cause and effect. I cause trouble, I will reap the natural end effects of it (I steal, I go to jail), however, unless I change my ways, "shit happens" will happen a lot more, in foreseeable ways, and in ever-increasingly larger issues. I do what is right, and resist temptation, "flowers happen" in the same manner.

...One can also tell 'a test' as opposed to 'discipline for transgressions'. I have certain... failings... that I struggle to overcome. Having my faith and obedience tested, and should I pass, I find both prosperity and a lack of temptation of any sort for a *long* time. Failing it usually winds up bad... and disastrous if I am tested in a particular weakness of mine. ...and I have yet to pass a test that I've asked for. *sigh*

However, I wouldn't say this applies to everyone... as this was something specific I had prayed for, that God's proverbial hand would either 'pat me on the head when I do good, so I can continue' or 'smack me around when I fail, so I'll stop', and the wisdom to see it happening. I also should've prayed for 'and the strength to overcome my weaknesses', but, meh, it's getting there.

This just stuns me. If your view of god gets you through the night, then I think that's wonderful for you personally - and I mean that very sincerely. But from the outside, the divine being you describe just seems appallingly petty.

What kind of a god heeds your mother-in-law's whims regarding baby hair and eye color, but does nothing to stop the tsunami that killed hundreds of thousands of people and brought misery to millions in 2004?

What kind of a god spends time giving you little tests to pass and plumbing issues as punishment for failure, while accepting that children are born every day in absolute squalor?

Aren't you ever tempted to say something like: forget about me, god, if you've got the time and are in the mood for some intervention, please do something to help the African children living in the midst of genocidal mass rape and slaughter?

 

[Netzach]

There is no credible historical evidence that Moses, author of the OT, ever existed?

Neither is there of Willam Shakespear. We only know that he existed because we put some faith or credience to historical books. The faith and credence we put into believing willam shakspear existed is founded upon archeologic sciences and the accurate passing of factual accounts from one generation to the next.

The bible's OT has more archelogical evidence to prove the text's accuracy about cultures, people, locations etc... than there is archelogical evidence that willam shakespeare existed.

I am not saying that it confirms the miracles that Moses performed or proves he went up on a mnt and recieved the ten commands from God, but it does speak to the credibility that Moses...as a man did exist, that he walked, ate, talked and was a leader to the people of Isreal and lead them out of bondage from the egyptians.

To compare Moses with a known mythical character in a book series is not an apples to apples comparision and is a gross exageration that discounts records of isrealite geneolgy, cultrual traditions which have been observed by the Jewish people dating back to their Egyptian captivity, and Egyptian archeology findings.

Ya know the whole passover thing passed on from generation to generation was according to your logic and criteria a religious tradition that was given to the Jewish people...from a mythical man that never existed or that can't possible be proven to exist.

riiiiighhhhhtttt.

Because a great many people have come to the supported and very likely conclusion that Shakespeare is in fact a fabrication. Because the kind of class mobility that would be required for a glove maker's son to be able to command the language like that, as well as the Myths and classics, simply did not exist.
http://www.bardweb.net/debates.html

Now, if it's likely, and I believe it's VERY likely, that one of the greatest minds of the 1600's is actually a fabrication, or a collaboration, it seems more likely to me that as you roll the clock back so many thousands of years, you need a larger grain of salt. Just because it's not LITERAL doesn't mean it's meaningless, however. I simply can't understand people's craving and insistence on the literality of belief.

Is the killing of Macduff's family less heartwrenching because Marlowe may have written it? Is Othello less thought provoking because it might have been Francis Bacon (though probably not)

Like the passage about Ruth and Naomi. I don't *care* if they existed. The story is compelling enough.

I think it's at least as likely that Moses was more than one peron, or an important leader whose mythology grew around him after he died and just snowballed into something more and more fantastic. And the idea that Moses gave us Pesach isn't correct either. God gave us pesach, which to me means that there was a ritual developed around the events of the exodus by the people of the time. It's a pretty big deal to come out of slavery, I can't imagine why anthropology couldn't possibly step in there like it does for the Wolof, The Tara-Humara, the Inca and all those people we've decided believe in "myths" versus "God."

I don't give a rat's ass about trying to prove the parting of the sea, whether Moses was one guy or a committee. All of this is, in my belief system, petty distraction from the message about liberation, responsibility, oppression, memory.

 

[Netzach]

So he's part elementary school teacher with the 'if one kid acts out, then no one gets recess' mindset, and part sadist prone to unpredictable administration of pain and elaborate mindfucks.

Interesting way to contrive a universe, and run a planet.

And I find these two deities to be completely in conflict. One is the former, or one is the latter. And I pray only that he's the latter, frankly. Because "it doesn't matter who started it" is possibly one of the most toxic philosophical tangents ever invented.

"It doesn't matter who started it" is to me what Marxism was to Ayn Rand. Yes. Yes it DOES.

 

[JMohegan]

And I find these two deities to be completely in conflict. One is the former, or one is the latter. And I pray only that he's the latter, frankly. Because "it doesn't matter who started it" is possibly one of the most toxic philosophical tangents ever invented.

"It doesn't matter who started it" is to me what Marxism was to Ayn Rand. Yes. Yes it DOES.

You're preaching to the choir here, woman.

I had zero respect for the teacher who employed this disciplinary M.O. In fact, my sense of injustice was so strong that I truly and thoroughly loathed her.

 

[Ravenwind]

What kind of a god heeds your mother-in-law's whims regarding baby hair and eye color, but does nothing to stop the tsunami that killed hundreds of thousands of people and brought misery to millions in 2004?

What kind of a god spends time giving you little tests to pass and plumbing issues as punishment for failure, while accepting that children are born every day in absolute squalor?

Aren't you ever tempted to say something like: forget about me, god, if you've got the time and are in the mood for some intervention, please do something to help the African children living in the midst of genocidal mass rape and slaughter?

One way to consider it is like this... How many people on this earth would give their right arm for their families? A good-sized amount... how many would give it for their neighbor or a friend? Not nearly as many, but still, a generous amount. How many for a complete stranger? "They can have it when I'm dead and I'm not using it any more"... how many for their worst enemy? Very few if any. Would you yourself give a kidney or a lung to Osama bin Laden if he needed it?

Consider: If you (generic) are not willing to change your mind about God, why, then, should He step in on your behalf? How, then, can someone with only evil on his mind, and no intention of changing his ways (let alone change them to "love your neighbor as yourself", or even "love your enemy"), be convinced to stop his evils, beyond that of being killed outright? And if God kills him outright, it goes back to my initial point, that people would then follow God for all the wrong reasons, following Him out of fear, instead of seeking how to live peaceably. He stepped in for all people in a single event, and that was through Jesus' life, teachings, sacrifice, and resurrection... but we *all* need to 'want the good life' (and I'm not talking Beverly Hills here) for that kind of mass protection. ...and even then, "Shit happens" will still happen. Just, not nearly as often.

In the end... who's fault is it that people are being murdered, raped, or living in squalor? Is it God's fault? Or is it mankind's fault? It's just wrong to say "I broke your one-of-a-kind Ming Vase. You fix it."... therefore, it is even moreso wrong to expect God to up and fix the very problems regarding something as uniquely precious as life, that we (collectively) cause. Is it not better, then, to say, "Teach me how to fix your vase, since I broke it"?

And imho, that tsunami is part and parcel of His intervention. Knowing that 'sin' is a boolean concept (sin being 'the fact of missing the mark (the mark being perfection)', whereas 'evil' being 'the distance of how far away from the mark'), thousands of sinners died. The corrupt, the greedy, the selfish, the hateful, the murderous, they were dealt with. At the same time, the relatively innocent were spared from further misdeeds from the relatively evil... in a massive wave, a small portion of justice was meted, and for some, salvation assured. And you ask I should pray to have Him "do something"? (And before you say "How cruel!"...if you were God, how would *you* deal with murderers, liars, thieves and so on? Knowing full well that only a small handful of people listen to your words, so diplomacy doesn't work... Would you forewarn them of your plans? How would you sort them out, knowing that mankind has such a varied opinion on what is 'good' and 'evil'?). I don't have to ask for His intervention, because it already is happening, and each event is bigger than the previous.

...and to put it one way, God is my Father and Creator... I know as a mom, I love both my kids equally, and just because one wants to show me a cool trick on a game it doesn't mean I must divert my full attention from the other who has a cold, while still getting both of their lunches ready. If, as a mom, I can do that... how much easier is it for God who can attend to all of our needs, both as individuals and en-masse?

...And on a side note, Homburg, how's the allergies?

 

[JMohegan]

One way to consider it is like this... How many people on this earth would give their right arm for their families? A good-sized amount... how many would give it for their neighbor or a friend? Not nearly as many, but still, a generous amount. How many for a complete stranger? "They can have it when I'm dead and I'm not using it any more"... how many for their worst enemy? Very few if any. Would you yourself give a kidney or a lung to Osama bin Laden if he needed it?

Consider: If you (generic) are not willing to change your mind about God, why, then, should He step in on your behalf? How, then, can someone with only evil on his mind, and no intention of changing his ways (let alone change them to "love your neighbor as yourself", or even "love your enemy"), be convinced to stop his evils, beyond that of being killed outright? And if God kills him outright, it goes back to my initial point, that people would then follow God for all the wrong reasons, following Him out of fear, instead of seeking how to live peaceably. He stepped in for all people in a single event, and that was through Jesus' life, teachings, sacrifice, and resurrection... but we *all* need to 'want the good life' (and I'm not talking Beverly Hills here) for that kind of mass protection. ...and even then, "Shit happens" will still happen. Just, not nearly as often.

In the end... who's fault is it that people are being murdered, raped, or living in squalor? Is it God's fault? Or is it mankind's fault? It's just wrong to say "I broke your one-of-a-kind Ming Vase. You fix it."... therefore, it is even moreso wrong to expect God to up and fix the very problems regarding something as uniquely precious as life, that we (collectively) cause. Is it not better, then, to say, "Teach me how to fix your vase, since I broke it"?

And imho, that tsunami is part and parcel of His intervention. Knowing that 'sin' is a boolean concept (sin being 'the fact of missing the mark (the mark being perfection)', whereas 'evil' being 'the distance of how far away from the mark'), thousands of sinners died. The corrupt, the greedy, the selfish, the hateful, the murderous, they were dealt with. At the same time, the relatively innocent were spared from further misdeeds from the relatively evil... in a massive wave, a small portion of justice was meted, and for some, salvation assured. And you ask I should pray to have Him "do something"? (And before you say "How cruel!"...if you were God, how would *you* deal with murderers, liars, thieves and so on? Knowing full well that only a small handful of people listen to your words, so diplomacy doesn't work... Would you forewarn them of your plans? How would you sort them out, knowing that mankind has such a varied opinion on what is 'good' and 'evil'?). I don't have to ask for His intervention, because it already is happening, and each event is bigger than the previous.

...and to put it one way, God is my Father and Creator... I know as a mom, I love both my kids equally, and just because one wants to show me a cool trick on a game it doesn't mean I must divert my full attention from the other who has a cold, while still getting both of their lunches ready. If, as a mom, I can do that... how much easier is it for God who can attend to all of our needs, both as individuals and en-masse?

...And on a side note, Homburg, how's the allergies?

When I am in charge of people, I consider clear communication to be an important responsibility on my part. I believe that the outlining of expectations and potential consequences, in clearly understandable and consistent terms, is one of two key elements of a responsible leader's job. The other is serving as a good example. I don't expect people to be perfect, but I do expect them to try. The consequence for distinctly unethical behavior is immediate termination of membership, position, or job.

That's how I would run the world as god. I'd have no problem picking off people who were really fucking things up, and I disagree strongly with the assumption that everyone else would therefore be following me "for the wrong reasons," i.e. fear. Genuine respect comes when people look to their leaders and perceive fair-mindedness.

Your god's communication is shrouded in antiquity, perceptible only to those who have been exposed to the tale you tell AND hit with the faith stick. As far as critical communication goes, that well and truly sucks. Further, his disciplinary system is profoundly unjust. Even worse, he's rigged the whole system by endowing every living soul with human nature, and giving us no choice in whether or not to play his game by being born into the system he devised.

And if he's sending tsunamis to slaughter Indonesians, not to mention threatening end times trauma for the unfaithful, how is that not inspiring people to follow him out of fear?

 

[JMohegan]

My faith and belief is in Jesus. To me that means to try to live my life as he lived his. I am not to judge others, but to love them as best I can, help where I can, and live a life with the same strength of character as he showed.

I have served with a woman whose faith manifests itself this way.

She actively seeks out "the least among us," the "lepers" of modern society. She lives (by choice, not necessity) in the midst of the people she helps - sacrificing almost all of her possessions, and most of her time, on behalf of those whom most Americans routinely ignore.

Her god is not a petty god. Her god is just mysterious. And she doesn't divide people into groups based on those who believe in the Trinity, and those who do not. She perceives people according to what they've been given, and what they've given back.

She is the kind of woman who says: "Oh, for heaven's sake, of course they should allow gay men and lesbians to be priests. Imagine wasting time arguing over such nonsense!"

The church she attends is Episcopalian. RJ, what sect of church do you attend?

 

[Netzach]

To me "if I were God" is completely laughable as a way to get at how God might actually work.

In regard to human suffering I am perfectly happy to get back a very terse "I AM THAT I AM". And amend my behavior toward other people because I should, all the time, every time.

 

[JMohegan]

To me "if I were God" is completely laughable as a way to get at how God might actually work.

In regard to human suffering I am perfectly happy to get back a very terse "I AM THAT I AM". And amend my behavior toward other people because I should, all the time, every time.

I don't blame RW for asking the question. I don't know how we can possibly make sense of anything, except through the prism of our own understanding.

Speaking of which, I have no idea what "I AM THAT I AM" means. If the point is that god's not going to answer any of our questions except to spout gibberish, and it's not our place to understand what the hell he's doing, or why, then I'm not sure what all the rest of the stuff in the Bible is for.

Ironically, though, that sums up the ethical foundation with which I was raised, as an agnostic. There's no way of knowing who or what god is or is not, or the answers to unanswerable questions. So we've got to behave as if we're on our own here, and do the best we can.

 

[Homburg]

...And on a side note, Homburg, how's the allergies?

Shitty. And this is a major reason why I've been watching this thread and not actively taking part. It's not just allergies at this point though. I think I caught a flu bug from one (or more) of the kids.

--

To me "if I were God" is completely laughable as a way to get at how God might actually work.

Me, god? My head would asplode. I'm not built to even comprehend omniscience, let alone possess it. Omni-whatever is infinity, and I have a hard enough time wrapping my head around infinity as a concise concept in math. Apply it to knowledge and my brain just goes all, "Look, a purple cow," and I get static.

Oddly enough, this is core to may overall take on god in general. Omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent? Right, my ability to comprehend this concept in any meaningful fashion just flew out the omni-window.

 

[RJMasters]

I have served with a woman whose faith manifests itself this way.

She actively seeks out "the least among us," the "lepers" of modern society. She lives (by choice, not necessity) in the midst of the people she helps - sacrificing almost all of her possessions, and most of her time, on behalf of those whom most Americans routinely ignore.

Her god is not a petty god. Her god is just mysterious. And she doesn't divide people into groups based on those who believe in the Trinity, and those who do not. She perceives people according to what they've been given, and what they've given back.

She is the kind of woman who says: "Oh, for heaven's sake, of course they should allow gay men and lesbians to be priests. Imagine wasting time arguing over such nonsense!"

The church she attends is Episcopalian. RJ, what sect of church do you attend?

I attend a non-denominational protestant Church on a semi-regular basis. Most of my knowledge of the bible came as a result of long talks with my dad when I was groiwing up and years of self study and contemplation. When I was 14, I was given the opportunity to speak in front of the church where I grew up and I choose to speak on church hypocrisy. lol I wasn't asked to speak again, they only let me lead the singing from then on.

My view on witnessing to others comes mainly from my father who told me that you really don't need to say anything to anyone. He said a person's life is like a light, and wheather they speak or not, others can see clearly enough wheather their light is shining or not. He told me that often is the case that those who are speaking the most often are the dimmest of light bulbs...grinz. He also said that those who try to speak for God or appear to have it all figured out are more dangerious than those who don't have any faith at all.

For me, there are some things which are very clear about God, but there is much more that is a mystery. I have come to the conclusion that "one way" you can really understand what a person's view of God is by asking them to describe heaven.

 

[RJMasters]

I simply can't understand people's craving and insistence on the literality of belief.

I think control has something to do with it.

Self validation I am sure is in there somewhere...

And perhaps a dash of desperation for the need to be right because its to fearful to think otherwise.

 

[Ravenwind]

When I am in charge of people, I consider clear communication to be an important responsibility on my part. I believe that the outlining of expectations and potential consequences, in clearly understandable and consistent terms, is one of two key elements of a responsible leader's job. The other is serving as a good example. I don't expect people to be perfect, but I do expect them to try. The consequence for distinctly unethical behavior is immediate termination of membership, position, or job.

Well said, and effectively describes the OT and the Gospels.

That's how I would run the world as god. I'd have no problem picking off people who were really fucking things up...

Again, well said, and effectively describes the various large-scale disasters within the Bible, the destruction of empires, to the deaths of certain individuals.

Now, let's expand upon what you'd do... Despite the picking off, nobody (except a person here or there) is listening to you, and continues their 'distinctly unethical behavior' even despite your 'outlining of expectations and potential consequences, in clearly understandable and consistent terms'... and worse, certain people have gone and look for loopholes in your air-tight explanations, exploit them, and cause others to follow them... What do you do then, under both circumstances?

and I disagree strongly with the assumption that everyone else would therefore be following me "for the wrong reasons," i.e. fear. Genuine respect comes when people look to their leaders and perceive fair-mindedness.

Excellent point. *However*... even despite your attempt to be fair, many perceive it to be unfair, because they don't take the time to ask 'why?'. How would you resolve this, under the condition that people have free will and can choose to remain stubborn? How do you resolve the fact that some simply follow you because you have power (and respectively, they have power [political and/or religious]), instead of ceasing their 'distinctly unethical behavior'?

Your god's communication is shrouded in antiquity, perceptible only to those who have been exposed to the tale you tell AND hit with the faith stick. As far as critical communication goes, that well and truly sucks. Further, his disciplinary system is profoundly unjust. Even worse, he's rigged the whole system by endowing every living soul with human nature, and giving us no choice in whether or not to play his game by being born into the system he devised.

I am asking for nothing more than for you to 'tell your tale'. So, following the above, would *you* create the world in a perfect way? Would you allow people the choice to turn away from you? What, then, would be the result of them rejecting you? Would you have it so that following you would be better for them than not following you?

And if he's sending tsunamis to slaughter Indonesians, not to mention threatening end times trauma for the unfaithful, how is that not inspiring people to follow him out of fear?

The book of Revelation has been around for 2000 years (give or take). Because 'little miracles' such as a pillar of fire, or the resurrection of the dead, doesn't seem to get people to realize 'oh, God did it. God must be real. So I'm going to follow Him', He said there would be increasingly bigger and bigger signs. These things are meant to be akin to a neon light saying "I'm here!... look around you... If you don't change your ways, and trust in me, you too will end up the same way".

Look at seatbelts. Back in the 80's in California, there were massive ad campaigns showing the effects of what would happen to you in a crash if you did or didn't wear your seatbelt. I know that it affected a lot of people, including myself. It wasn't meant to inspire 'cowardice and worry' toward getting in a crash, but rather 'respect the life-saving properties' of the seatbelt (both of those terms are part of 'fear' when used Biblically- either to show cowardace, or respect of power).

So too with the end-times stuff... If, hypothetically, we both live to see the whole of the endtimes... you, as a non-believer, will have it lucky. Death will come to both of us- you, from a natural disaster... me, I get the 'lucky honor' of betrayal from my own family and/or friends, and a probably slow and painful torture (or a quick and probably annoying decapitation). Truth be told, it would make more sense, from a temporal perspective, to be more 'cowardly' of becoming a Christian, knowing what becomes of us. But, because I fear God (that is, I recognize and respect His power and ability to save me), I have no need to fear (to worry over) what will happen to me.

That was the purpose of prophecy, just as the ad campaigns... to instill the 'respect' kind of fear. Those who don't look or seek to understand wind up with the 'cowardice' kind after the prophecy unfolds- and that of itself tends to become hatred and/or disbelief.

Speaking of which, I have no idea what "I AM THAT I AM" means

"I am all that I am" would be a more understandable equivalent. Other terms along that line would be the common phrase "I am who I am, and nothing will change that" ('who' implying personality makes the person, and no outside influences will change their personality) or Popeye's song of "I am what I am, and that's all that I am" ('what' implying the things done make the person, and he is nothing more than the sum of what he does). In God's case, the use of 'that' implies everything about Him makes the complete whole of Him- no one particular aspect of who He is defines Him. (In context- He is not the god of life, nor the god of weather, nor the god of retribution, or "the god of something" that was a common belief in the local religions... He is *God*, end of story)

It's hardly gibberish, no more than "6 degrees of Kevin Bacon" is gibberish- one simply has to take the time to understand what is involved beyond a first glance.

and it's not our place to understand what the hell he's doing, or why, then I'm not sure what all the rest of the stuff in the Bible is for.

That's what the rest of the Bible *is* for. There are issues or times when we don't or can't understand what He's doing or why, as that's either "just beyond us" or "not for right now, but will be known later". But there are times when and issues that we are *supposed* to know, and when we don't, we wind up making statements like that. ^_^

Shitty. And this is a major reason why I've been watching this thread and not actively taking part. It's not just allergies at this point though. I think I caught a flu bug from one (or more) of the kids.

That sucks. I really hope you feel better soon. $5 says it's the same flu I, and everyone else I know, had. Mucinex and Nyquil are your friends. ^_~

Me, god? My head would asplode.

Rofl! They are head-hurting concepts. But I find them less painful to comprehend in video game terms. Omnipresence = pressing the pause button, and then scrolling around the map, in an RTS or a Sim- game. Omniscience = having a complete walkthrough on hand. Omnipotence = Cheating/Hacking/Admin Powers/God-Mode and infinite ammo in any game.

 

[eastern sun]

How about the theory that man is genetically programed to believe in god. That in fact it may be a desirable evolutionary trait that has helped us survive. Richard Dawkins, Steven Pinker (the Blank Slate) and Michael Shermer (Science Skeptism and the search for God) among others have looked at the human brain and its need to embrace god.

Here is a link to Shermer, from there one can do all the research one desires.

http://books.google.com/books?id=g-...resnum=3&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=&f=false

I think this is an interesting proposal. As I see it, it doesn't argue for or against the existence of God, but it does explain why so many semantic models and theories (i.e. myths) have developed over time.

 

[JMohegan]

Well said, and effectively describes the OT and the Gospels.



Again, well said, and effectively describes the various large-scale disasters within the Bible, the destruction of empires, to the deaths of certain individuals.

Now, let's expand upon what you'd do... Despite the picking off, nobody (except a person here or there) is listening to you, and continues their 'distinctly unethical behavior' even despite your 'outlining of expectations and potential consequences, in clearly understandable and consistent terms'... and worse, certain people have gone and look for loopholes in your air-tight explanations, exploit them, and cause others to follow them... What do you do then, under both circumstances?



Excellent point. *However*... even despite your attempt to be fair, many perceive it to be unfair, because they don't take the time to ask 'why?'. How would you resolve this, under the condition that people have free will and can choose to remain stubborn? How do you resolve the fact that some simply follow you because you have power (and respectively, they have power [political and/or religious]), instead of ceasing their 'distinctly unethical behavior'?



I am asking for nothing more than for you to 'tell your tale'. So, following the above, would *you* create the world in a perfect way? Would you allow people the choice to turn away from you? What, then, would be the result of them rejecting you? Would you have it so that following you would be better for them than not following you?



The book of Revelation has been around for 2000 years (give or take). Because 'little miracles' such as a pillar of fire, or the resurrection of the dead, doesn't seem to get people to realize 'oh, God did it. God must be real. So I'm going to follow Him', He said there would be increasingly bigger and bigger signs. These things are meant to be akin to a neon light saying "I'm here!... look around you... If you don't change your ways, and trust in me, you too will end up the same way".

Look at seatbelts. Back in the 80's in California, there were massive ad campaigns showing the effects of what would happen to you in a crash if you did or didn't wear your seatbelt. I know that it affected a lot of people, including myself. It wasn't meant to inspire 'cowardice and worry' toward getting in a crash, but rather 'respect the life-saving properties' of the seatbelt (both of those terms are part of 'fear' when used Biblically- either to show cowardace, or respect of power).

So too with the end-times stuff... If, hypothetically, we both live to see the whole of the endtimes... you, as a non-believer, will have it lucky. Death will come to both of us- you, from a natural disaster... me, I get the 'lucky honor' of betrayal from my own family and/or friends, and a probably slow and painful torture (or a quick and probably annoying decapitation). Truth be told, it would make more sense, from a temporal perspective, to be more 'cowardly' of becoming a Christian, knowing what becomes of us. But, because I fear God (that is, I recognize and respect His power and ability to save me), I have no need to fear (to worry over) what will happen to me.

That was the purpose of prophecy, just as the ad campaigns... to instill the 'respect' kind of fear. Those who don't look or seek to understand wind up with the 'cowardice' kind after the prophecy unfolds- and that of itself tends to become hatred and/or disbelief.



"I am all that I am" would be a more understandable equivalent. Other terms along that line would be the common phrase "I am who I am, and nothing will change that" ('who' implying personality makes the person, and no outside influences will change their personality) or Popeye's song of "I am what I am, and that's all that I am" ('what' implying the things done make the person, and he is nothing more than the sum of what he does). In God's case, the use of 'that' implies everything about Him makes the complete whole of Him- no one particular aspect of who He is defines Him. (In context- He is not the god of life, nor the god of weather, nor the god of retribution, or "the god of something" that was a common belief in the local religions... He is *God*, end of story)

It's hardly gibberish, no more than "6 degrees of Kevin Bacon" is gibberish- one simply has to take the time to understand what is involved beyond a first glance.



That's what the rest of the Bible *is* for. There are issues or times when we don't or can't understand what He's doing or why, as that's either "just beyond us" or "not for right now, but will be known later". But there are times when and issues that we are *supposed* to know, and when we don't, we wind up making statements like that. ^_^

In my view, the premise of your questions is very misleading.

I don't think the problem is that people aren't listening to god. I think the problem is that god, if he exists, is not talking.

I don't think the problem is that people are rejecting god. I think the problem is that god, if he exists, is not making himself known in any sort of coherent way.

A document that is thousands of years old and of questionable origin does not count as clear and compelling communication. Again, this is the point we come back to.

 

[JMohegan]

I attend a non-denominational protestant Church on a semi-regular basis. Most of my knowledge of the bible came as a result of long talks with my dad when I was groiwing up and years of self study and contemplation. When I was 14, I was given the opportunity to speak in front of the church where I grew up and I choose to speak on church hypocrisy. lol I wasn't asked to speak again, they only let me lead the singing from then on.

My view on witnessing to others comes mainly from my father who told me that you really don't need to say anything to anyone. He said a person's life is like a light, and wheather they speak or not, others can see clearly enough wheather their light is shining or not. He told me that often is the case that those who are speaking the most often are the dimmest of light bulbs...grinz. He also said that those who try to speak for God or appear to have it all figured out are more dangerious than those who don't have any faith at all.

For me, there are some things which are very clear about God, but there is much more that is a mystery. I have come to the conclusion that "one way" you can really understand what a person's view of God is by asking them to describe heaven.

So.... what is your view of heaven?

As an aside - Is there a place in the OT or NT where God or Jesus says: People who don't believe in me are dangerous, untrustworthy, or unethical?

I've wondered many times how that idea got started. Why is it that so many people of faith see those who don't have faith as lesser in terms of ethical grounding? Why don't they judge people by what they do, instead of what they believe?