BDSM and Religion

[Netzach]

So.... what is your view of heaven?

As an aside - Is there a place in the OT or NT where God or Jesus says: People who don't believe in me are dangerous, untrustworthy, or unethical?

I've wondered many times how that idea got started. Why is it that so many people of faith see those who don't have faith as lesser in terms of ethical grounding? Why don't they judge people by what they do, instead of what they believe?

In the case of Christianity, St. Paul. In the case of Judaism, everyone was kicking our asses most of the time. In the case of Islam, they're the new kid.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

I don't think the problem is that people aren't listening to god. I think the problem is that god, if he exists, is not talking.

I don't think the problem is that people are rejecting god. I think the problem is that god, if he exists, is not making himself known in any sort of coherent way.

Although you may be talking about God having a twitter account or speaking from clouds or something (which, admittedly, would be swell for a little while, and then just annoying), this is my favorite saying of Jesus about God and communication. It was sliced from the bible, officially, for "being too cool for school":

His disciples said to Him, "When will the Kingdom come?"

Jesus said, "It does not come by expecting it. It will not be a matter of saying, 'See, it is here!' or 'Look, it is there!'
Rather, the Kingdom of the Father is spread over the earth and men do not see it."

~The Gospel of Thomas

 

[Netzach]

Re: works versus faith - there was a big biiiig fight at Antioch and only Paul's version of events made it into the official Gospels - Pete's version languishes in those cutting room floor excerpts. Note though, that in Catholicism there IS more emphasis on works alongside belief, and who was the first of the Popes?

 

[RJMasters]

So.... what is your view of heaven?

Well, some say heaven's streets are paved with gold.

When I was young, we were pretty poor growing up, yet I remember that times and the other houses on the block. I knew all the mom's and they knew me as well as every other kid on the block.

Like at my house, any kids that were over shared in what ever was there for after school snacks. I remember having block BBQs where people all brought something, salad, hotdogs, whatere they could and we had a good time.

As poor as we were then, I still look back on my street as being paved with gold. Where people were a community and cared after one another. When someting happened to someone in a nearby family, ALL the families of the neighborhood gathered around to support them anyway they could.

I guess in a way, if you compare my view of gold verses the idea of having real streets paved with real gold, you understand where I define what the riches of heaven are. I think it also makes it understandable why Jesus said, that his kindom was not "of" this world. Meaning, his kingdom, is not like other kingdoms which value wealth and power and measure greatness and worth materialisticlly. He has a different standard of greatness and worth and since he is the one, the carprenter that has gone to build a place for us, I believe it will be his standard that he uses that will ultimately define what heaven is really going to be like.

I think anyone who has this concept of heaven as being a place where they get to enjoy all the materialistic things and live the "good-life", is a clear poker tell in how they see God as well. Wheather it be 70 virgins or streets paved with gold..... the riches of heaven shouldn't be reduced to a materialistic nirvana of pleasure. I think those who hold such a view of heaven, also are the ones who preach and teach a God who is just as petty.

As an aside - Is there a place in the OT or NT where God or Jesus says: People who don't believe in me are dangerous, untrustworthy, or unethical?

I've wondered many times how that idea got started. Why is it that so many people of faith see those who don't have faith as lesser in terms of ethical grounding? Why don't they judge people by what they do, instead of what they believe?

You can try Romans chapter 1 verses 28-32. I would imagine that from Christian points of view or frame of mind, they would develop a view of those who don't believe from passages like these. right wrong or indifferent, if you were to ask bible toting christians why they think the world is as bad off as it is and why everything is going to hell in a hand basket, you would likely be given the answer because people have turned away from God, and the above verses would be a place where they would point.

Christians are nortorious with blaming others for the woes of the world. For me, I think they only have themselves to blame, but that's for another post...this one's long enough.

 

[JMohegan]

Although you may be talking about God having a twitter account or speaking from clouds or something (which, admittedly, would be swell for a little while, and then just annoying), this is my favorite saying of Jesus about God and communication. It was sliced from the bible, officially, for "being too cool for school":

His disciples said to Him, "When will the Kingdom come?"

Jesus said, "It does not come by expecting it. It will not be a matter of saying, 'See, it is here!' or 'Look, it is there!'
Rather, the Kingdom of the Father is spread over the earth and men do not see it."

~The Gospel of Thomas

Clear and compelling communication means delivery of messages in a language I speak, in phraseology my brain can comprehend, from a source I recognize as credible. Surely that's not beyond the capability of an omnipotent Being.

Cryptic clues, vague double meanings, and archaic scripts make for entertaining games on occasion, I'll grant you that. But if a leader, ruler, boss, or disciplinarian has something critically important to say, then he/she/it should come right out and fucking say it. Or at the very least, quit blaming the subjects for his/her own failures of communication.

"The Kingdom of the Father is spread over the earth and men do not see it" makes no sense to me.

 

[JMohegan]

In the case of Christianity, St. Paul.

You can try Romans chapter 1 verses 28-32. I would imagine that from Christian points of view or frame of mind, they would develop a view of those who don't believe from passages like these. right wrong or indifferent, if you were to ask bible toting christians why they think the world is as bad off as it is and why everything is going to hell in a hand basket, you would likely be given the answer because people have turned away from God, and the above verses would be a place where they would point.

Christians are nortorious with blaming others for the woes of the world. For me, I think they only have themselves to blame, but that's for another post...this one's long enough.

Wow. There's a whole hell of a lot of venom packed into St. Paul's message, quoted below.

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

 

[Hisbeauty]

You know...i have lost my faith in god...but i have faith in Sir...what is wrong with that? god sent Sir to me.

 

[JMohegan]

Well, some say heaven's streets are paved with gold.

When I was young, we were pretty poor growing up, yet I remember that times and the other houses on the block. I knew all the mom's and they knew me as well as every other kid on the block.

Like at my house, any kids that were over shared in what ever was there for after school snacks. I remember having block BBQs where people all brought something, salad, hotdogs, whatere they could and we had a good time.

As poor as we were then, I still look back on my street as being paved with gold. Where people were a community and cared after one another. When someting happened to someone in a nearby family, ALL the families of the neighborhood gathered around to support them anyway they could.

I guess in a way, if you compare my view of gold verses the idea of having real streets paved with real gold, you understand where I define what the riches of heaven are. I think it also makes it understandable why Jesus said, that his kindom was not "of" this world. Meaning, his kingdom, is not like other kingdoms which value wealth and power and measure greatness and worth materialisticlly. He has a different standard of greatness and worth and since he is the one, the carprenter that has gone to build a place for us, I believe it will be his standard that he uses that will ultimately define what heaven is really going to be like.

I think anyone who has this concept of heaven as being a place where they get to enjoy all the materialistic things and live the "good-life", is a clear poker tell in how they see God as well. Wheather it be 70 virgins or streets paved with gold..... the riches of heaven shouldn't be reduced to a materialistic nirvana of pleasure. I think those who hold such a view of heaven, also are the ones who preach and teach a God who is just as petty.

I like your description of your childhood community.

I am continually struck by the number of American Christians who oppose wealth redistribution and social programs to relieve the suffering of the poor. I don't know if their view of "the good life" differs from yours, or if they object on some other grounds. But this disconnect has always struck me as very odd.

 

[Netzach]

You know...i have lost my faith in god...but i have faith in Sir...what is wrong with that? god sent Sir to me.

This makes total sense to me. Maybe you're a Buddhist?

 

[Netzach]

Wow. There's a whole hell of a lot of venom packed into St. Paul's message, quoted below.

Saul of Tarsus was a skinny rich Jew from a bustling diverse metropolis on the outskirts of the Empire, who got really sick and then well again and gave up his riches, hit the road, and became a fanatical proponent of this new religion. Like most Jews in showbiz, he changed his name and became Paul. He is the most profound influence on contemporary Christianity - I'd say even more than Jesus, in a lot of ways. What stayed in the Bible everyone reads is pretty much Paul's version of events, and what was axed was pretty much everything that contradicted it strongly.

(The events at Antioch likely contained a literal ass-whuppin from St. Pete. Paul is the winner in history, but he left Antioch in a hurry and probably not as voluntarily as he'd have you believe.)

Paul didn't much care for women, out went the Marian gospels and anything in which women were given a shot at being human beings. Paul obviously had an issue with male homosexuality, being a skinny Jew from Tarsus still, and so he lambasted the wicked for it. Jesus never said a thing about it.

Jesus never said a lot about a lot of things he supposedly demands. He never said how OFTEN you have to have wine and crackers, which has left the door open for the strife between Catholics and Prots for centuries. If he couldn't be assed to explain frequency of communion and he never mentioned homosexuals once in all four Gospels, you have to wonder.

Jesus basically said you have to be baptized and believe in him and you'll be saved. The rest of the extraneous rule set came from other mouths, not the Horse's in this case. For someone who hung out with societal dregs it doesn't seem to me like the rest of them were listening very carefully.

While Paul was converting nonbelievers and writing letters to the Corinthians to quit having too much sex at communion, (that bread, wine and love thy Neighbor thing led to the obvious for a lot of the earlies) there was a completely different early Christian world going on in a lot of places he simply wasn't.

The winners write the history. Paul was an unlikely winner when it came time to edit, and a HUGE winner when it's time to justify subjugating women or killing lots of Indians or whatever your program is to make the whole world have faith, no matter WHAT acts this might require. I don't even think the little fanatic would be pleased with what's been carried on based on things he'd said.

A lot of Christians follow his words much more devoutly than they ever followed Jesus.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

Clear and compelling communication means delivery of messages in a language I speak, in phraseology my brain can comprehend, from a source I recognize as credible. Surely that's not beyond the capability of an omnipotent Being.

Cryptic clues, vague double meanings, and archaic scripts make for entertaining games on occasion, I'll grant you that. But if a leader, ruler, boss, or disciplinarian has something critically important to say, then he/she/it should come right out and fucking say it. Or at the very least, quit blaming the subjects for his/her own failures of communication.

"The Kingdom of the Father is spread over the earth and men do not see it" makes no sense to me.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you prefer prose to poetry.

 

[StrayKat]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you prefer prose to poetry.

I do too. Is that wrong?

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

I do too. Is that wrong?

Of course not.

I read Whitman when I want insight into what it is to be human. I read the lawn mower manual when I want some help figuring out what all that black smoke means.

I find when I do it the other way around it isn't as useful, and in fact, enrages me.

 

[JMohegan]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you prefer prose to poetry.

I have a preference for that which I can understand.

Is god only talking to English majors? That's his prerogative, surely, but if so let's stop pretending his delivery is universal.

 

[JMohegan]

Saul of Tarsus was a skinny rich Jew from a bustling diverse metropolis on the outskirts of the Empire, who got really sick and then well again and gave up his riches, hit the road, and became a fanatical proponent of this new religion. Like most Jews in showbiz, he changed his name and became Paul. He is the most profound influence on contemporary Christianity - I'd say even more than Jesus, in a lot of ways. What stayed in the Bible everyone reads is pretty much Paul's version of events, and what was axed was pretty much everything that contradicted it strongly.

(The events at Antioch likely contained a literal ass-whuppin from St. Pete. Paul is the winner in history, but he left Antioch in a hurry and probably not as voluntarily as he'd have you believe.)

Paul didn't much care for women, out went the Marian gospels and anything in which women were given a shot at being human beings. Paul obviously had an issue with male homosexuality, being a skinny Jew from Tarsus still, and so he lambasted the wicked for it. Jesus never said a thing about it.

Jesus never said a lot about a lot of things he supposedly demands. He never said how OFTEN you have to have wine and crackers, which has left the door open for the strife between Catholics and Prots for centuries. If he couldn't be assed to explain frequency of communion and he never mentioned homosexuals once in all four Gospels, you have to wonder.

Jesus basically said you have to be baptized and believe in him and you'll be saved. The rest of the extraneous rule set came from other mouths, not the Horse's in this case. For someone who hung out with societal dregs it doesn't seem to me like the rest of them were listening very carefully.

While Paul was converting nonbelievers and writing letters to the Corinthians to quit having too much sex at communion, (that bread, wine and love thy Neighbor thing led to the obvious for a lot of the earlies) there was a completely different early Christian world going on in a lot of places he simply wasn't.

The winners write the history. Paul was an unlikely winner when it came time to edit, and a HUGE winner when it's time to justify subjugating women or killing lots of Indians or whatever your program is to make the whole world have faith, no matter WHAT acts this might require. I don't even think the little fanatic would be pleased with what's been carried on based on things he'd said.

A lot of Christians follow his words much more devoutly than they ever followed Jesus.

Thank you, this is fascinating.

And why Gandhi declared: ""I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians."

 

[neci]

Clear and compelling communication means delivery of messages in a language I speak, in phraseology my brain can comprehend, from a source I recognize as credible. Surely that's not beyond the capability of an omnipotent Being.

Cryptic clues, vague double meanings, and archaic scripts make for entertaining games on occasion, I'll grant you that. But if a leader, ruler, boss, or disciplinarian has something critically important to say, then he/she/it should come right out and fucking say it. Or at the very least, quit blaming the subjects for his/her own failures of communication.

"The Kingdom of the Father is spread over the earth and men do not see it" makes no sense to me.

the next time you are looking for something grander than ourselves, and God working in concrete ways, go to an adoption hearing on National Adoption Day. Look a child in the eyes, who was once almost dead, and see life shining through. Speak with a cancer survivor. Sometimes the signs are so clear, they blind us, and we look the other way.

i once heard the testimony of a woman who's entire village was massacred by soldiers in the 80's. She was the sole survivor. They ripped her three month old baby out of her arms and threw it to the floor. First they rounded up the men, and shot them. She was able to roll into thorny bushes and hide. she prayed to God that if He would keep her alive, she would testify to her experience. She would make sure her people's story was told. She heard her children screaming mama, as the soldiers rounded them up in front of the church and shot every child. Her throat went dry, and her tears made no sounds. she sobbed and shook burring herself deeper into the earth under the thorny bush. the women were the last to be shot - after they were raped. with all of the soldiers around, no one saw or heard her. She described the following days of hiding - of trying to avoid any human. She was found later, ragged, cut all over her body. Crying.

Her conviction when she shared her testimony was infectious. She described not having the courage or the strength, but receiving it from somewhere outside herself. She held true to her promise, and became a leader in fighting for justice. A humble peasant woman. no formal education. just one example. of grace. of the difference between inhumanity and Him.

while she told her story, a calmness came over her. a peace and beauty i have never seen. when she spoke her last words, she broke down in tears. released.

 

[eastern sun]

i once heard the testimony of a woman who's entire village was massacred by soldiers in the 80's. She was the sole survivor. They ripped her three month old baby out of her arms and threw it to the floor. First they rounded up the men, and shot them. She was able to roll into thorny bushes and hide. she prayed to God that if He would keep her alive, she would testify to her experience. She would make sure her people's story was told. She heard her children screaming mama, as the soldiers rounded them up in front of the church and shot every child. Her throat went dry, and her tears made no sounds. she sobbed and shook burring herself deeper into the earth under the thorny bush. the women were the last to be shot - after they were raped. with all of the soldiers around, no one saw or heard her. She described the following days of hiding - of trying to avoid any human. She was found later, ragged, cut all over her body. Crying.

Her conviction when she shared her testimony was infectious. She described not having the courage or the strength, but receiving it from somewhere outside herself. She held true to her promise, and became a leader in fighting for justice. A humble peasant woman. no formal education. just one example. of grace. of the difference between inhumanity and Him.

while she told her story, a calmness came over her. a peace and beauty i have never seen. when she spoke her last words, she broke down in tears. released.

Where did you have the opportunity to hear her?

 

[JMohegan]

the next time you are looking for something grander than ourselves, and God working in concrete ways, go to an adoption hearing on National Adoption Day. Look a child in the eyes, who was once almost dead, and see life shining through. Speak with a cancer survivor. Sometimes the signs are so clear, they blind us, and we look the other way.

Tell me, Neci. What do you see when you look at dead children?

I have no problem perceiving something more powerful, more awe-inspiring, than myself.

What I have a problem with is the vision of God portrayed by those whose faith springs from the Bible.

 

[StrayKat]

Of course not.

I read Whitman when I want insight into what it is to be human. I read the lawn mower manual when I want some help figuring out what all that black smoke means.

I find when I do it the other way around it isn't as useful, and in fact, enrages me.

I assume you never found a good book describing insight in human mind when facing broken lawn mover then...

Poetry just is a way of expressing something. One can find insight in what is to be human in prose as well. Actually I believe one can find such insights everywhere if one pays attention. I have more problems in finding out what is it to be me and so far no religion or poetry or prose gave me much clue.

 

[neci]

Tell me, Neci. What do you see when you look at dead children?

I have no problem perceiving something more powerful, more awe-inspiring, than myself.

What I have a problem with is the vision of God portrayed by those whose faith springs from the Bible.

it hurts. looking at a dead child. it also makes me mad. i have tried to paint it before, but i just can't.
a lot of bible thumpers piss me off. i have some serious church issues. i think i can't get past the superficial part, or maybe i use that as an excuse not to open up. i don't know. it's not my cup of tea. today anyways.

 

[MisterSir]

she prayed to God that if He would keep her alive, she would testify to her experience. She would make sure her people's story was told. She heard her children screaming mama, as the soldiers rounded them up in front of the church and shot every child.

That right there is why these depictions of God make me angry. He knows this shit is going on, with babies being hurled to the ground and children being executed, but does fuck all to stop it...however, when one woman makes a fucking deal with him, he reaches down and protects her. Are you seriously telling me that meshes with the omnipotent, omnibenevolent prick in the Bible? Does Jesus mention the words "Blessed are the egotistical, because Dad's just like you," in the beatitudes and I've just ignored them all these years?

Fuck. See, I tried to keep out of this thread but y'all just keep pulling me back in.

 

[neci]

That right there is why these depictions of God make me angry. He knows this shit is going on, with babies being hurled to the ground and children being executed, but does fuck all to stop it...however, when one woman makes a fucking deal with him, he reaches down and protects her. Are you seriously telling me that meshes with the omnipotent, omnibenevolent prick in the Bible? Does Jesus mention the words "Blessed are the egotistical, because Dad's just like you," in the beatitudes and I've just ignored them all these years?

Fuck. See, I tried to keep out of this thread but y'all just keep pulling me back in.

why do bad things happen to good people?
why are there assholes out there that take and hurt and use?
why do we choose not to look at it?
why does God not intervene and wipe us out with a big flood and start the fuck over? who knows. i know i don't.

When i first heard her speak, i was confused and angry. She felt and believed it was her calling. It was her truth. i had to believe that she believed. it was all i could do at the time.
The end result enabled the UN's Truth Commission to collaborate the findings of the remains of the bodies. Her testimony brought an international spotlight to a massacres that were rampant through out the country. Had she been murdered, there may have been a different ending.

In a world with so much devastation, i have to hold onto something good. that's all. just hope.

 

[neci]

Where did you have the opportunity to hear her?

in El Salvador.

 

[StrayKat]

That right there is why these depictions of God make me angry. He knows this shit is going on, with babies being hurled to the ground and children being executed, but does fuck all to stop it...however, when one woman makes a fucking deal with him, he reaches down and protects her. Are you seriously telling me that meshes with the omnipotent, omnibenevolent prick in the Bible? Does Jesus mention the words "Blessed are the egotistical, because Dad's just like you," in the beatitudes and I've just ignored them all these years?

Fuck. See, I tried to keep out of this thread but y'all just keep pulling me back in.

You cant tell how would you react in such situation. You cant literally take that God protected her. There is much more in everyone than you see in everyday life and that comes out when your life gets jeopardized, you may find inner strength you never knew you possessed. Someone would say its God, someone would say its basic struggle to survive.
People react very odd in extremely stressful situations sometimes.

I was in the war. The city where I lived with my husband and children was not directly attacked like the town where my parents lived. Still we had air forces flying over every night and during the day sometimes, they were always announced by alarm so we could run to shelter. And then I developed odd habit of washing the dishes whenever I was home and alarm started. I would pack my kids and hand them to my husband to take them away but I would stubbornly stay behind to do the dishes every time. I hate doing the dishes with a passion normally.
My husband was horrified. If there was a bombing in area I would have never survived in that house. Yet you could not drag me away from my dishes for nothing.

I dont believe in God, at least not as some almighty being capable to affect my life in any way. I do believe in subconsciousness and I find it very scary.

 

[MisterSir]

You cant tell how would you react in such situation. You cant literally take that God protected her. There is much more in everyone than you see in everyday life and that comes out when your life gets jeopardized, you may find inner strength you never knew you possessed. Someone would say its God, someone would say its basic struggle to survive.
People react very odd in extremely stressful situations sometimes.

Why can I not take it literally that God protected her? She seems to think so, that God heard and answered her prayer to keep her safe, so why am I not allowed to take that same assumption and use it?